Changing Perspectives On Gender.

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Skyweir
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Since 2022
Addressing discriminatory legislative attacks against LGBTQI+ children and families, directing key agencies to protect families and children;

Preventing so-called “conversion therapy” with a historic initiative to protect children from the harmful practice;
Safeguarding health care, and programs designed to prevent youth suicide;

Supporting LGBTQI+ children and families by launching a new initiative to protect foster youth, prevent homelessness, and improve access to federal programs; and

Taking new, additional steps to advance LGBTQI+ equality.
ADDRESSING DISCRIMINATORY LEGISLATIVE ATTACKS

Over 300 anti-LGBTQI+ laws have been introduced in state legislatures over the past year, and many of them specifically target transgender children and their parents by banning access to medical care and support at school.

President Biden is addressing these harmful, hateful, and discriminatory attacks head-on – not only by speaking up for America’s families, but taking action to stand up to the bullies targeting LGBTQI+ people.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-ro ... ide-month/
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Gays and lesbians are not a subset of sex. Trans is, according to you and the link I posted, not an immutable characteristic like race or sex, so that's a whole different issue.

The redefinition of the CRA made no sense. The gutting of Title IX makes less. If the legislature cares about rights, it needs to vote on legislation to codify those rights. Anything else is unconstitutional.
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Post by Skyweir »

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote: Gays and lesbians are not a subset of sex. Trans is, according to you and the link I posted, not an immutable characteristic like race or sex, so that's a whole different issue.
I’m not convinced that it s so. The research indicates it’s genetic ~ if you’re hardwired trans ~ sure you may be oscillate between a state of limbo pre-transition v post-transition and a state of flux … but that’s just a matter of aligning one’s anatomy with one’s genetically determined identity.
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote: The redefinition of the CRA made no sense. The gutting of Title IX makes less. If the legislature cares about rights, it needs to vote on legislation to codify those rights. Anything else is unconstitutional.
I don’t disagree with this
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Skyweir wrote: But don’t we have a consensus that transgender members of society should be afforded equal rights ~ and the legal protections equal rights affords?
How so? Who said that trans should not have equal rights afforded to everyone?
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Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote: The door was opened when the CRA of 1964 was butchered to include gays, lesbians, and trans people as a subset of, "sex". Never mind that gay and lesbian have nothing to do with trans, and that sexual orientation has nothing to do with biological sex.

Biden can't accomplish the gutting of Title IX via executive fiat, and SCOTUS will stop him from doing that.
As I understand it the CRA wasn’t butchered to accomodate LGB community members.

Does that observation refer to the Supreme Court in 2020 declaration that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (“CRA”) protects LGBTQ employees from workplace discrimination?

I feel no it difficult to see that as butchering. Was it the creation of the subset of sex? Cuz that too makes sense to me ~ as a natural progression in the legal evolution and equal distribution of human rights.

Maybe you are both referring to something else?
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According to this Vox article the GOP have coordinated a national campaign against trans rights. That’s pretty disgusting given that this is a minority demographic comprised of vulnerable trans children & youth as well as adults
Trans youth, who have been the primary focus of anti-trans legislation this year, are experiencing a mental health crisis:

A 2022 survey by the Trevor Project, a suicide prevention group focused on LGBTQ youth, found that 86 percent of trans or nonbinary youth reported negative effects on their mental health stemming from the political debate around trans issues, and nearly half had seriously considered suicide in the past year.
https://www.vox.com/politics/23631262/ ... gislatures
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Skyweir wrote: But don’t we have a consensus that transgender members of society should be afforded equal rights ~ and the legal protections equal rights affords?
I suspect all here agree to that. But I'm not sure we all agree on whether or not competing in female sporting events is a right of all people.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Fist and Faith wrote:
Skyweir wrote: But don’t we have a consensus that transgender members of society should be afforded equal rights ~ and the legal protections equal rights affords?
I suspect all here agree to that. But I'm not sure we all agree on whether or not competing in female sporting events is a right of all people.
Exactly right. What we are looking at is changing legal protections for a subset of people that want/need/should be treated as the gender that they selected. However what are the ramifications of that when it changes the purpose of the current law in regards to separating people by biological sex?

Why do girls/women have their own leagues and teams? It was important enough that its in place (and codified in most) just about everywhere in the world. So why are those protections in place?
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

This conversation is why it's so important to delineate between sex (genetics) and gender (a construct).
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+

Pope Francis: Gender ideology is ‘one of the most dangerous ideological colonizations’ today
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Pope Francis speaks at the general audience in Vatican City's Paul VI Hall on Feb. 22, 2023. | Vatican Media

Rome Newsroom — Pope Francis has said that gender ideology is “one of the most dangerous ideological colonizations” today.

In an interview with journalist Elisabetta Piqué for the Argentine daily newspaper La Nación, Pope Francis explained the reasoning behind his strong statement.

“Gender ideology, today, is one of the most dangerous ideological colonizations,” Francis said in the interview published on the evening of March 10.

“Why is it dangerous? Because it blurs differences and the value of men and women,” he added.

“All humanity is the tension of differences. It is to grow through the tension of differences. The question of gender is diluting the differences and making the world the same, all dull, all alike, and that is contrary to the human vocation.”

Pope Francis has frequently used the term “ideological colonization” throughout the 10 years of his pontificate, particularly to describe instances when aid money for developing countries has been tied to contraceptives, abortion, sterilization, and gender ideologies.

In a conversation with Polish bishops in 2016, Pope Francis said: “Today children — children — are taught in school that everyone can choose his or her sex. Why are they teaching this? Because the books are provided by the people and institutions that give you money. These forms of ideological colonization are also supported by influential countries. And this is terrible!”

The pope told Piqué that he was not currently writing a new encyclical and denied that he had been asked to write a document on the subject of gender.

While he is not writing something on gender ideology, the pope said that he talks about the subject “because some people are a bit naïve and believe that it is the way to progress.”

He said that they “do not distinguish what is respect for sexual diversity or diverse sexual preferences from what is already an anthropology of gender, which is extremely dangerous because it eliminates differences, and that erases humanity, the richness of humanity, both personal, cultural, and social, the diversities and the tensions between differences.”

The pope noted that he always distinguishes “between what pastoral care is for people who have a different sexual orientation and what gender ideology is.”

“They are two different things,” he added.

When Piqué asked Pope Francis if he knew that in Argentina people are asked to indicate on official forms if they are male, female, or non-binary sex, the pope said that it reminded him of the “futuristic” novel, Lord of the World, written by Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson in 1907.

He said that the book presents the idea of “a future in which differences are disappearing and everything is the same, everything is uniform, a single leader of the whole world.”

In the interview with La Nación — the third papal interview published on March 10 — Pope Francis also reflected on the 10 years of his pontificate, his concern for the war in Ukraine, and why he has not traveled to his native Argentina.

[…]

Asked to identify any mistakes he might have made in the past 10 years, the pope regretted times when he had lost his patience.

“More than once. It did not appear in the newspapers, but more than once,” he added with a laugh.
Last edited by Wosbald on Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by SoulBiter »

No surprise there and I suspect in many Churches around the world, Catholic, Protestant, and even Muslim, there will be the same conclusion on gender. That is why Churches are not allowed to be the govt ;)
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Post by Avatar »

SoulBiter wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:37 pm Why do girls/women have their own leagues and teams? It was important enough that its in place (and codified in most) just about everywhere in the world. So why are those protections in place?
This is genuinely the only arena (haha) I think where I struggle to figure out what is the right approach.

As was mentioned up-thread, a trans man in a mens boxing match is unlikely to be able to compete on equal grounds, and likewise a trans woman in a woman's bout.

The only exception I can think of is if pharmaceutical transitioning began early enough to prevent the impact of testosterone on bone / muscle / ligature development in the one case, or testosterone treatment began early enough to allow it to have such an impact. In all other cases, these physiological realities are going to influence the outcome in one way or another.

The only options I can think of off hand are either complete bans, separate trans leagues (likely to be sparsely populated with contestants), or the elimination of separation entirely (which would probably have similar results.)

This is indeed a difficult one.

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Post by wayfriend »

Avatar wrote: This is indeed a difficult one.
I wish people would think more about what a dangerous precedent it is to begin to grant access/deny access based on genes.
Here we have people who are ostensibly men or ostensibly women but who are treated differently based on their chromosomes.
It may seem like a no-brainer now, at least if your are not worried about how horrible it already is for the people affected.
But it opens the door for all kinds of genetics-based legislation in the future.
Such as, you have the gene for giaganticism, you are not allowed to play basketball, it's unfair to the others.
Once this becomes accepted, it will only get worse.
Insurance companies already want to base policies on your DNA.
And too many people are claiming you don't own your own gene sequence.
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Post by Avatar »

Not saying you're wrong about the slippery slope thing, (generally people with giganticism have other physical / health issues which would probably preclude them from playing a professional sport though I think), but it doesn't address the question.

If I am born a man and I grew to maturity training for a specific sport, then the presence of testosterone in my bio-chemical composition will have had certain influences on the development of muscle mass, of bone density, of muscle attachment, etc.

If I transition to being a woman and continue playing that sport, my physical capabilities arising from that development are different from those who developed without testosterone affecting those things.

Is it fair to other contestants if I leverage that difference into an advantage in the sport which they are unable to achieve? Does my right to be treated as my gender of choice trump their right to compete on a level playing field?

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