Changing Perspectives On Gender.

[Avatar]

So does that mean that He loves us even if we want to be the sex we should be? Or that he made some of us the wrong sex?



Sorry, I should not get into theological discussions where I don't accept the underlying principle (God).

--A

[wayfriend]

Well, what I meant is that God should love us in the sex we want to be. But those are all good choices IMO. If God gives us a trial such as gender dysphoria, who's to say what He hopes we do with it.

But I came back to say: the IRONIC thing is that sexual fluidity is ONLY an issue because we have a culture that requires strong differentiation of the sexes. Restrooms. Schools. Etc. This culture was largely put on us by the Church's belief in separating the sexes. Which arose from the belief that women are evil temptresses sent by Satan.

So they caused this mess that they now won't clean up.

[Skyweir]

Oh boy women have a lot to answer for in life

I don’t think I entirely get it all ~ as the spectrum is very broad but I appreciate some folk possess both biological/anatomical sexes. For them it’s a bit clearer but I’ve got friends who’s children from tots STRONGLY identified opposite to their biologically assigned sex.

That’s not a thing made up ~ those children are now in high school ~ amd it’s good that we live in an age on enlightenment where we can accommodate them.

I’ve no issue with transgender folk sharing a bathroom or with using more applicable pro-nouns. It’s far less of a hardship to accomodate humans in such simple ways.

But it’s like indigenous Australians seeking to move Australia Day to another less colonially targeted date ~ I’ve no problem with accomodating anyone who experiences harm or discomfort ~ to make their lives more comfortable.

These are not to me big accomodations

[Skyweir]

I think the real blame lies at gods feet

[Avatar]

Nah, the real blame lies at the feet of those who claim to know / interpret what they've decided God wants for everybody.

(Good post WF.)

--A

[Skyweir]

mmm…excellent distinction

[wayfriend]

BTW, I meant the Church caused the mess.
Not women.
Just in case anyone thought that.

But I sincerely believe that transgenderness is a more hot button issue than race or sex because our society/culture assigns so much power on the basis of sex that the thought of someone crossing boundaries and getting any "unrightful" power is utterly appalling to some.

[Avatar]

It just blows my mind why something that affects literally nobody but the person themselves is such a big deal to other people.

--A

[SoulBiter]

Gender - Well it wouldn't affect anyone else if people (not sure exactly who is pushing it all) would quit trying to force the rest of us to stop using binary gendered terminology and to go gender neutral in the media, books, schools, military, and the way we address others.

As far as transgenderism goes, as adults I don't care what you do around other adults or to yourself. Does not have any impact on me. I do have a problem with some of the drag shows with kids present when the drag is overtly sexual. (Wearing G-strings etc etc). I also would not want women dressed this way and doing the same thing around children.

Then there is transitioning children. Don't do that. Until you are an adult you should not be "transitioning" and especially you should you be having irreversible surgery. How does anyone think that a 13 year old is old enough or mature enough to have a double mastectomy?

[wayfriend]

I don't think any children are transitioning without their parents full consent. On the other hand, delaying transitioning to adulthood is seriously harmful and that's why the fully informed parents consent to it.

Nor do I think anyone in G-strings is reading to children. Nor do they groom children for sex, nor do they eat children to maintain their youth.

[SoulBiter]

I don't care if they have their parents consent or not when it comes to surgery. A girl is suing Kaiser because

Layla Jane detransitioned at age 17, years after having a double mastectomy at age 13.

Age 13 is too young to do that kind of harm to your body that cant be fixed. That is why it should never happen. Children change their mind and are malleable. You can do all that when you are an adult.

Outside of that a quick web search will show you that there are instances when overtly sexualized drag shows are performed for children. There was one cancelled in London recently after a pushback by parents. I also agree that they are not eating children.

Example:

Children as young as 5 years old were exposed to a man’s erotic drag show performance at the end of a school district talent show. Irate parents yelled and left the auditorium, but not before a full-grown man had begun gyrating, flipping his tongue, and flashing a G-string.

[wayfriend]

I don't care if they have their parents consent or not when it comes to surgery.

Well, I am glad your clear that politicians are more knowledgeable about what a child needs than their own parents and doctors.

[Skyweir]

BTW, I meant the Church caused the mess.
Not women.
Just in case anyone thought that.

But I sincerely believe that transgenderness is a more hot button issue than race or sex because our society/culture assigns so much power on the basis of sex that the thought of someone crossing boundaries and getting any "unrightful" power is utterly appalling to some.

lol

[SoulBiter]

I don't care if they have their parents consent or not when it comes to surgery.

Well, I am glad your clear that politicians are more knowledgeable about what a child needs than their own parents and doctors.

Hmmm I looked and I never said or inferred that politicians are more or even less knowledgeable about anything. Maybe you thought that I was a politician. If so then let me be clear. I am not a politician. I am however a citizen and a parent and I have my own ideas on many topics, including this one. Carry on.

[Skyweir]

SB
well whoever organised THAT talent contest was an idiot … I mean no one exposes their kids to erotic dance shows or maybe tot weirdos do.

It’s bizarre that any school would do such a thing … most schools are way too PC for that to occur … at least you’d hope they were.

Which is why no one takes their kids to Hooters or drag shows….

I’d be much more content if they’d cancel child beauty pageants also. Talk about sexualising a child!!!

[Skyweir]

Also I agree with surgery not being appropriate before a reasonable age ~ kids are not the best judges and can not be held to an understanding like “informed consent” till they’re able to understand the gamut of implications they are agreeing to.

I agree Av ~ what consenting adults do for their own lives is totally up to them and no one else’s business.

[Fist and Faith]

I'm only locking this thread for a couple hours. That's to give everyone time to read the first post of the Current Events thread. Although that is the only thread where we can begin discussions that are specifically intended to be political, many topics can touch on politics. This thread is one example. So let's remember to play nice. Don't tell someone what ze thinks or believes.

[Fist and Faith]

I can't know what someone else feels. But it seems to me there are some people who are truly born the wrong gender. It's incomprehensible to me, because there's no confusion at all in me. So I don't know how there can be confusion in anyone else. But some people will go to the most extreme measures possible to become the gender they are not born. I can't believe every one of those cases is because of trauma, or whatever reasons some people claim must be the reason.

I imagine there have been people like this throughout human history. And they have usually had a pretty tough time with things. Obviously, we should no longer beat and murder them. More, I don't think we should try to force them to just suck it up and be what they were born. I can only imagine what it must be like to have the world insist that I am something that I know I am not. To never be free to express my true self as I know myself to be. To not allow someone to be who and what they are - assuming what they are is not harming someone else ("My true self is a murderer.") - is among the most vile crimes. I have no problem letting someone be themself. I will call someone he, she, they, ze, or whatever.

I think we should always have had an alternative to "they" for cases of a person whose identity we did not know, rather than use the non-gender plural option. That would have been an obvious choice for the non-binary to adopt. "They" has always been used when we don't know the identity of someone. Using it for someone who we know, but who doesn't identify as male or female, seems too impersonal to me.

It is illegal for children below one age or another to drive, drink alcohol, get married, and various other things, even with their parents' permission. The parents can even get arrested for allowing it in some cases. I am stunned that gender reassignment surgery is legal for children who cannot do these other things. There is no perfect solution to this problem. Some allowed have regretted it, but there's no growing back what you had removed.

I'm sure some who were not allowed have suffered horribly. But I suspect the suffering came more from not being accepted, even advised, even by their families, than from having to wait a few more years, on the chance that gaining some more life experience, and going through some pretty serious hormonal activity, makes you feel different than you did when you were 12.

I recently read about a little boy, Billy, who's best friend was John. Billy's parents knew John, who had been to their house to play. One day, Billy told his parents John was a girl. His parents told him it was not nice to say that kind of thing about his friend. One day, John's parents introduced themselves to Billy's parents. They told Billy's parents how incredibly grateful they were for their (Billy's parents') acceptance of John as a boy, and how wonderful Billy was for always having treated John like any other friend who was a boy. Billy's parents were rather surprised, realizing what their son meant when he said John was a girl. Point being, John was not traumatized or living in pain. No, it's not a perfect solution, because John still felt like a boy who had to live in a girl's body. I don't remember if the article said that John went on to get the reassignment surgery, and never regretted it. And even this scenario of love and acceptance doesn't guarantee whichever choice was made was not regretted. But there's no question that John's childhood was better than it would have been if his parents told him he was disgusting, that they were ashamed, to live like a girl and forced girl's clothes and toys, etc.

[Skyweir]

Fist,
Is the word politics or politician verboten?

Cuz like you yourself said, heaps of things can be politicised and sadly are.

But 100% agree that there is little value in assuming another’s intent or even meaning. Though it’s surely ok to question it, challenge it, no?

[Savor Dam]

I cannot speak to issues of gender transition.

On the other hand, one beloved of me did not blink when medical necessity said "double mastectomy" in her mid-fifties. The physical, mental, and emotional strength to weather that choice, not only in its making, but in the ongoing process of healing from the mastectomy, followed by multiple rounds of reconstruction (and P.Ink tattooing), leaves me in awe.

"Something's lost, but something's gained, in living every day..."

This Is Not Something a Teen Ought To Sign Up For!.