Changing Perspectives On Gender.

[Fist and Faith]

This is a very complex issue.

I agree that there are two biological sexes. Yes, just as there are people born with no arms, there are people born with confusing biological sex.

The level of commitment some transgender people have leads me to believe the biological sex they were born with is not their gender. I don't see reason to believe everyone who wants this surgery is the victim of any kind of manipulation. Normal came out in 2003, Renee Richards got her surgery in 1975, and others came decades before. These are not examples of any of today's problems.

And there are problems. Yes, Big Pharma is one.

People who see a boy look at a pair of earrings in a store and begin telling him he is a girl born into the wrong gender are another. I'm not thinking of any specific case. I just mean any kind of pressure being put on children. Even only encouragement.

On the flip side, there are people, even parents, who tease, belittle, berate, bully, beat (oddly mostly b words...), ostracize, and even kill those who do so much as exhibit signs of being transgender.

As in all things when humans are involved, there is evil.

Gender dysphoria is under "Diseases and Conditions" in the Mayo Clinic link Nihilo provided. The first paragraph says:

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics.

Interesting that they don't define it with the words like "disease," "condition," or "mental illness." I don't like the word "assigned" in this case, because, when you're born, and your mother asks the doctor if it's a boy or a girl, the doctor doesn't assign you your sex. The doctor looks to see if you have a penis or a vagina.

The second paragraph of the Mayo link is:

Transgender and gender-diverse people might experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. However, some transgender and gender-diverse people feel at ease with their bodies, with or without medical intervention.

I don't know enough about all this to know how one can be transgender without the "discomfort or distress." How are you trans if you're fine the way you were born?

I find their wording confusing in both paragraphs.

And none of it matters to me. Because, as I've said, whether or not it's a disease/condition/mental illness, and despite the fact that there are only two biological sexes, some people feel that the sex they were born with is wrong. I have not heard that medication or therapy helps them feel otherwise. They will be uncomfortable, and possibly miserable, the way they are. They will definitely be miserable, and possibly suicidal, if they are told they're wrong or disgusting, and are not allowed to live as what they consider to be their true selves. There is nothing to gain by opposing them. There is much to gain by treating them the way they want to be treated, including a relationship with them if that is important to you (such as if they are your child), and possibly their life.

I'm sure there are cases that are not truly transgender. Some might just be confused. Some might be looking for attention. Some might just join in with anything if they think it's popular. In all cases, giving them the time and freedom to figure things out is likely better than making them dig in their heels by opposing them. Everybody knows what happens when you forbid your child to do something. If you don't oppose it, you remove their ability to rebel against you.

[Skyweir]

Whose plans?

Who are these conveniently unidentified entities?

The people taking children away from parents. That's who Nihilo is talking about, and whose plans after the taking you are asking about, neh? Maybe Nihilo does not know what their plans for feeding the taken children are.

The government? State government? Federal Agency? A cabal of evil pedophiles? Who is separating transgender children and minors from their parents? How often is this occurring? You see it is the THEY that is not clear

Also what is not clear, is why you are answering these questions ~ in essence assuming another posters intent, and providing responses to THEIR argument.

[Skyweir]

This is a very complex issue.

I agree that there are two biological sexes. Yes, just as there are people born with no arms, there are people born with confusing biological sex.

According to that American Scientist article Av shared ~ biological sex is not binary but much more fluid. And gender dysphoria is apparently an oversimplification.

It seems the answer is genetics ~ genes seem to be in a constant state of flux ~ I’m not a geneticist so can’t adequately describe what Avs article astutely does.

[Fist and Faith]

The government? State government? Federal Agency? A cabal of evil pedophiles? Who is separating transgender children and minors from their parents? How often is this occurring? You see it is the THEY that is not clear

In this case
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/10/21/co ... -identity/
it is the Department of Child Services in Indiana, and the judge who supported the DCS's recommendation. (Seems like a good decision to me. Having had successful sex doesn't automatically make you a good parent. These sound horrible to me, and the child was suffering.). I would imagine most cases are child a services/protection agency, after having received a phone call from someone who was concerned for a child's welfare.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear about one parent kidnapping a child from the custodial parent over this issue. I don't know that that has happened, but, certainly, non-custodial parents have kidnapped their children.

Also what is not clear, is why you are answering these questions ~ in essence assuming another posters intent, argument and providing responses to THEIR argument.

My apologies. I was joining the conversation, giving my thoughts, and suggesting he may have this or that in mind. I suggested that because I had noticed he was away for days at a time, and might not respond for a while But that was inappropriate. I should not have suggested anything, and simply given my thoughts on it. That's what I'll do from here on.

When courts remove children from their homes, I believe they generally put them into foster homes that have food. One would hope that a parent kidnapping their child from the custodial parent is doing so because they love the child. In which case I expect they would feed the child. However, such goes are often not the case. There are a lot of sick people out there, and some people literally starve their children to death. So I really couldn't say.

This is a very complex issue.

I agree that there are two biological sexes. Yes, just as there are people born with no arms, there are people born with confusing biological sex.

According to that American Scientist article Av shared ~ biological sex is not binary but much more fluid. And gender dysphoria is apparently an oversimplification.

It seems the answer is genetics ~ genes seem to be in a constant state of flux ~ I’m not a geneticist so can’t adequately describe what Avs article astutely does.

It is rather fascinating.

When genetics is taken into consideration, the boundary between the sexes becomes even blurrier. Scientists have identified many of the genes involved in the main forms of DSD, and have uncovered variations in these genes that have subtle effects on a person's anatomical or physiological sex. What's more, new technologies in DNA sequencing and cell biology are revealing that almost everyone is, to varying degrees, a patchwork of genetically distinct cells, some with a sex that might not match that of the rest of their body. Some studies even suggest that the sex of each cell drives its behaviour, through a complicated network of molecular interactions. “I think there's much greater diversity within male or female, and there is certainly an area of overlap where some people can't easily define themselves within the binary structure,” says John Achermann, who studies sex development and endocrinology at University College London's Institute of Child Health.

If each cell has it's own sex, and enough cells have the sex opposite the one reflected by the person's genitalia and hormonal makeup, it might be that person will exhibit more tendencies of the opposite sex. From females who act a little masculine and males who are a little effeminate to people who want to be the sex opposite to that which their genitals say they are.

If this is what's driving some to want to become the opposite sex, I wonder if there will one day be some kind of gene therapy that puts more of the individual cells' sex in alignment with the sex their genitals say they are, eliminating the discomfort or conflict they feel. It's kind of a sci-fi scenario. But if someone can be made just as happy this way as they could with hormonal therapy and surgery, I would think it's a better idea. I mean, if it was me, I'd try that first. Others may prefer to do the hormonal therapy and surgery to try to be happy with the feelings they currently have than to change the feelings they currently have.

(Then, of course, we'll hear stories of children being illegally and underneath given therapy when there was no confusion, because a parent wanted a child of the other sex.)

But, until (if) that becomes possible, and someone chooses it, I still say we should support them to be the gender they want to be and say they truly are. It is a mistake to try to force something like "dealing with" an identity they feel they are not. I can't imagine many things more hurtful, difficult, and ripe for damage.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

In the main, I agree with most of your first post Fist.

What gives me and many others pause is dogmatic statements that eliminate any possibility of a calm, sober discussion. In the Reddit link I posted, there are a lot of people who are either thinking of detransitioning or already have who talk about, "the cult of trans", or talk about their feelings of alienation when they express doubts about what they've done.

Further, when talking about minor children, we as a society accept that minors do not have the same rights as adults due to the fact that their brains haven't fully developed, and that they lack the agency of adults. So when it's decided that any questioning of a minor child's "choice" to transition is tantamount to a hate crime, there's a problem there.

To be perfectly clear, consenting adults can do whatever they like with their bodies. But when you start feeding children the same drugs used to chemically castrate adult sex offenders in order to, "postpone" adolescence (which will further isolate those children from their peers), and you begin allowing the surgical destruction of their bodies, that's a bridge too far.

To your second post, the thought that parents may be manipulating their children into transitioning for whatever reason is pretty monstrous.

[Skyweir]

In the main, I agree with most of your first post Fist.

What gives me and many others pause is dogmatic statements that eliminate any possibility of a calm, sober discussion. In the Reddit link I posted, there are a lot of people who are either thinking of detransitioning or already have who talk about, "the cult of trans", or talk about their feelings of alienation when they express doubts about what they've done.

Further, when talking about minor children, we as a society accept that minors do not have the same rights as adults due to the fact that their brains haven't fully developed, and that they lack the agency of adults. So when it's decided that any questioning of a minor child's "choice" to transition is tantamount to a hate crime, there's a problem there.

To be perfectly clear, consenting adults can do whatever they like with their bodies. But when you start feeding children the same drugs used to chemically castrate adult sex offenders in order to, "postpone" adolescence (which will further isolate those children from their peers), and you begin allowing the surgical destruction of their bodies, that's a bridge too far.

To your second post, the thought that parents may be manipulating their children into transitioning for whatever reason is pretty monstrous.

I don’t know what your frame of reference is but we previously seemed to understand that no minor can lawfully “transition” surgically without both parents, medical professional/s support.

Here that’s exactly how the law works.

In the US maybe there are disparities in the application of these fundamental requirements depending on State.

Such arrangements and limitations enable sober and calm discussion with all affected parties and relevant medical professionals. This enables considered and measured response to the child’s needs.

In the case above that Fist shared ~ this had not happened sadly and the child was subject to persecution amd emotional abuse by their parents.

To the degree the child was either engaged in self harm or had thoughts of self harm amd suicidal ideation. Which is not ideal.

[wayfriend]

If we don't hold up examples of worst possible outcomes, but instead look at the issue as a whole, here is what we see.

As far as trans health care is concerned, however, the medical consensus is well-established: Nearly a dozen major medical associations, including the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics support and recommend gender-affirmative care.

[...] If you’re a cisgender person — that is, someone who fits comfortably into the gender you were assigned at birth — it might be hard to conceptualize that someone else could have a completely different experience. But trans identity has always existed; many trans and nonbinary people throughout history lived their lives instinctively, even when the language we now use for their identities didn’t yet exist. For many people, blurring the gender binary isn’t a choice, or something they are “allowed” to do or not do — it’s simply how their brains work. Neurological research has shown that trans people’s brains are more closely aligned to the gender with which they identify. They’re experiencing the world and their own gender differently than cisgender people.

This reality applies to trans children as well as adults. Trans children often know they’re trans from very young ages, often by age 7, according to a study from Cedars-Sinai, and even as young as age 3. While there’s some debate over how early such children should begin socially transitioning (publicly expressing one’s gender through things like clothing choices and name changes), in the US medical experts generally encourage early social transitions, which have been found in study after study, including at least one large-scale study published by the Journal of Adolescent Health, to lead to improved health and happiness. In 2013, in keeping with this growing medical consensus, the American Psychiatric Association officially changed its diagnostic manual to clarify for the first time that “gender non-conformity is not in itself a mental disorder,” formally acknowledging for the first time that trans identity is not a mental illness that requires fixing or curing.

This is not in reply to anyone who posted in this thread. This is not about anyone on the Watch. There are no claims in this post about why anyone is doing anything, or even what they are doing.

[Fist and Faith]

That is all excellent stuff. I particularly like this:

For many people, blurring the gender binary isn’t a choice, or something they are “allowed” to do or not do — it’s simply how their brains work. Neurological research has shown that trans people’s brains are more closely aligned to the gender with which they identify. They’re experiencing the world and their own gender differently than cisgender people.

Exactly.

(I would like to know what is meant by "trans people’s brains are more closely aligned to the gender with which they identify." I wonder what "aligned" means.)

[Skyweir]

I wonder if that is a genetic relevant assessment…

[Skyweir]

This is not in reply to anyone who posted in this thread. This is not about anyone on the Watch. There are no claims in this post about why anyone is doing anything, or even what they are doing.

I may need to steal the caveat portion of your post.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

The quoted article starts off wrong. No one is assigned a gender at birth. Everything that follows is mush based on the initial flawed premise.

Gender exists only in one's mind. Sex is immutable. No amount of hoping, wishing, lawfare, hormones, or surgery will ever make a male a female.

[Fist and Faith]

In the main, I agree with most of your first post Fist.

What gives me and many others pause is dogmatic statements that eliminate any possibility of a calm, sober discussion. In the Reddit link I posted, there are a lot of people who are either thinking of detransitioning or already have who talk about, "the cult of trans", or talk about their feelings of alienation when they express doubts about what they've done.

Further, when talking about minor children, we as a society accept that minors do not have the same rights as adults due to the fact that their brains haven't fully developed, and that they lack the agency of adults. So when it's decided that any questioning of a minor child's "choice" to transition is tantamount to a hate crime, there's a problem there.

To be perfectly clear, consenting adults can do whatever they like with their bodies. But when you start feeding children the same drugs used to chemically castrate adult sex offenders in order to, "postpone" adolescence (which will further isolate those children from their peers), and you begin allowing the surgical destruction of their bodies, that's a bridge too far.

As I sometimes say, anywhere humans are involved there are problems. Mistakes are made on all sides. Evil is done on all sides. Different people have different needs, wants, fears, and reactions to the same circumstances. With all that, I don't think blanket policies are often a good idea.

I am not in favor of giving children puberty blockers. They sometimes change their mind. If they do, and stop taking the drugs, they are (as someone, possibly you, said), at the very least, behind their peers in significant ways, which would only further their feelings of alienation. I'm not sure there aren't more problems than that. Chemically interfering with a body's natural growth and development might be somewhat complicated. How many people who took them only from ages, say, 12-17? What do we know about their physical health over the next thirty years?

Otoh, how many who took these drugs never stopped, and live(d) happy with their choice?

I find the contradiction of not allowing a child to take a sip of beer while allowing them to take puberty blocking drugs to be... I don't even know what words to use. But it's very strange. However, I think there are cases when we should allow them to make the decision. I think there are those who truly are born with the wrong biological sex. Between the persistence they show and trauma they go through, allowing them to live as close to the way they want as they can get, rather than telling them they are wrong and must live the rest of their lives in a body that makes them feel horrible, is the right choice.

But when is it ok? I think, as with most things, it should be decided on a case-by-case basis. And each case should the examined, more than somewhat. When a child goes to the doctor's office and talks about it for the first time, and has a prescription 20 minutes later, I have a problem. I'm not very comfortable with a doctor giving me antibiotics based on 20 minutes.

A decision like this should take time. Discussions with people of different fields, and, obviously, people who have gone through it. They might find that the child has never wavered from this stance on their life. Otoh, they might find that the child is being manipulated into it.

To your second post, the thought that parents may be manipulating their children into transitioning for whatever reason is pretty monstrous.

Indeed. But, of course, many parents have done pretty monstrous things to their children. I learned long ago that I'm not the first person to come up with any idea I came up with. And any horrifying thing one person can do to another has already been done. So I'm positive some mother with Munchausen Syndrome thought about how much attention she would get for having a transgender child, and how much praise she would get for being so loving and supportive and accepting of that child.

The quoted article starts off wrong. No one is assigned a gender at birth. Everything that follows is mush based on the initial flawed premise.

Gender exists only in one's mind. Sex is immutable. No amount of hoping, wishing, lawfare, hormones, or surgery will ever make a male a female.

It could be that it's not as clear cut as today. There are many links aside from the two Av and wf gave.

https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/mo ... 0different.

https://www.tiktok.com/@berrytherapytho ... XpwPW&_r=1

But I'm not actually concerned with whether or not we can find scientific justification for the way some people feel. If they feel so strongly that their biological sex is wrong, and this feeling causes the quality of their life to be so low that no one would trade places with them, and they might kill themselves, then I would not stand in the way of them being able to live life the way they want. Not even if I thought it was mental illness. We aren't very good at helping with that, so let them try what they think will help.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

No man can ever become a woman and no woman can ever become a man.

Given that, I don't care what consenting adults do with their bodies.

[wayfriend]

I can dye my hair.
I can add hair when I lose it.

I can change the color of my eyes.
I can change the accuracy of my vision.

I can fix my teeth. Change my nose. Improve my chin. Lift sags. Improve my skin tone.

I can remove fat from my waist. I can staple my stomach so I am less hungry. I can lengthen my legs. I can bolster my calves. I can fix my fallen arches.

I can cure my cancer. I can cure diseases and syndromes I was born with. I can use gene therapy.

I can edit my children's genes to make them smarter and stronger and more beautiful.

But I am a slave to the sex I was born as? For moral reasons?

I need someone to explain why that is across the line.

[Skyweir]

It’s not across the line ~ and I don’t believe it’s an argument of morality. It seems pretty authoritative that it’s genetic.

Most of us non-geneticists are less aware of discoveries that have galvanised medical professional understanding of the frequency or occurrence of sexual development disorders.

It’s not a choice if you are born with extremely high levels of testosterone and other male sex hormones and are a woman, have female plumbing and all male chromosomes.

[This] disorders of sex development (DSD).

“Morris syndrome is now called 46,XY DSD: androgen insensitivity syndrome.

These people have an extremely high level of testosterone and other male sex hormones, but the testosterone does not affect the foetal cells that usually develop into male sexual organs because of a mutation in the androgen receptor gene.

These people therefore have male chromosomes but are women socially and in external appearance. They do not have internal female sexual organs, and they form testicles that remain concealed in the abdominal cavity.”

So it’s not a matter of catering to phases, a fad, a newly fashionable trend … it is purely genetic.

A number of articles shared recently identify children separated from their parents not because their parents failed to use a pronoun - but because those parents abused their children solely because they identified as transgender.

That is indeed monstrous as a previous poster suggested. He was right.

I agree that as puberty blockers & surgical transitions come with significant risks ~ these risks should be carefully weighed before deciding on or continuing along these paths.

It is good and wise that there are in most jurisdictions strict limits on such actions ~ ie age limits for surgical intervention and expansive consent requirements from ALL (affected & professionally advising) parties

I also read the list of articles Nihilo recommended ~ and note that the reddit entries highlighting that some individuals may identify transgender in error.

Given that DSD is a genetic disorder - surely such can be genetically screened to determine whether or not the youth identifying as trans actually possesses the indicative chromosomes to support any interventionist actions.

My take away is that given DSD is a now known & accepted genetic condition, those who identify as transgender ought to be taken seriously and supported in non interventionist ways.

At least to sustain & support the mental health journey of the youth/child involved.

Demonising transgender children & youth, imo, serves no positive outcome.

At worst children experiencing parental abuse and denigration risk suicidal ideation, self harms and ultimately the possibility of removal from their family home.

This tragically and unnecessarily compounds trauma with further trauma.

[Fist and Faith]

But I am a slave to the sex I was born as? For moral reasons?

It's fine by me. If someone tells you you can't, tell them where they can stick it. True, you cannot literally change your biological sex. If you were born XX, without the ability to produce sperm, you cannot change to XY and father children. If you were born XY, without the ability to produce eggs, you cannot change to XX and begin producing your own eggs in order to bear biological children. But you can modify your body in various ways in order to look as much like the gender you want to look like, and live as that gender. You can live as much like the gender you want to look like as the many infertile people of the gender you have changed to do.

[Skyweir]

wayfriend wrote: ↑
But I am a slave to the sex I was born as?

It’s hard to know if your comment is a question or a statement And it’s kind of weird to ask without mentioning your name (but I’ve edited this post to remove my reference to it) though it remains in my quote lol

But the latter comment not quoted, relating to morality ~ I think is irrelevant and ought to be irrelevant.

Intersex cases or disorders of sexual development aren’t evidently about merely choice and dressing the way you want ~ that’s sounds more like the realms of drag.

The American Scientist article elaborates on the genetic and cellular biology advancements in understanding:

What's more, new technologies in DNA sequencing and cell biology are revealing that almost everyone is, to varying degrees, a patchwork of genetically distinct cells, some with a sex that might not match that of the rest of their body. Some studies even suggest that the sex of each cell drives its behaviour, through a complicated network of molecular interactions.

It’s then a distinction between sure dress how you want ~ look how you want ~ whenever you want ~ live your best life no matter what anybody else says AND being the chromosomally different sex you are to your anatomical self.

That’s beyond experimenting with being transvestite ~ that’s dealing with the chromosomes (or the hand ) god/nature/the universe/fate/luck … gave you.

[Fist and Faith]

wayfriend wrote: ↑
But I am a slave to the sex I was born as?

It’s hard to know if your comment is a question or a statement And it’s kind of weird to ask without mentioning your name (but I’ve edited this post to remove my reference to it though it remains in my quote lol

I had been thinking the same thing lately. I understood the reasoning of the rule when Z came up with it. But it's a bit awkward at times. Let's try things a different way that will, hopefully, achieve the intended results. Everybody please check out the first post of the Current Events thread.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I can dye my hair.
I can add hair when I lose it.

I can change the color of my eyes.
I can change the accuracy of my vision.

I can fix my teeth. Change my nose. Improve my chin. Lift sags. Improve my skin tone.

I can remove fat from my waist. I can staple my stomach so I am less hungry. I can lengthen my legs. I can bolster my calves. I can fix my fallen arches.

I can cure my cancer. I can cure diseases and syndromes I was born with. I can use gene therapy.

I can edit my children's genes to make them smarter and stronger and more beautiful.

But I am a slave to the sex I was born as? For moral reasons?

I need someone to explain why that is across the line.

I have not mentioned morality, so I'm unclear who you're responding to.

None of the things you mention will change your immutable genetic coding. You can color your hair and eyes, you can surgically alter your body, and you can cure your diseases. you cannot become female. Yes, you are, in fact, a slave to your genetics in that regard.

I'm using the royal "you" here, the above statement applies to everyone.

Edited to add: I also think it's probably not particularly apt to compare a tummy tuck or colored contact lenses to castrating oneself in a response to a mental problem. It seems to me that that diminishes what these people are feeling and going through.

[Skyweir]

That’s the most salient distinction ~ transgenderism IS apparently about your genetic coding.

As DSD and intersex conditions are not a mental problem ~ they are genetically and biologically determined.