The Real Russia Story is about the Dems

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Skyweir
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Post by Skyweir »

I read an opposite argument as well as the one Call linked - US Today.

Four people charged so far and there not done.
Flynn, Papadopolous (whatever), Manafort and Gates.

Flynn wouldn't have been given a plea deal if there weren't bigger fish to fry. Flynn has probably already disclosed information that will implicate those bigger fish.

Be interesting to see what they find or don't find
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Various investigations into the overall Russiagate meme have been going on for almost a year now and none of them have directly linked Trump himself to Putin or other agents inside Russia. There is no "smoking gun" waiting to be uncovered and all the fish who are going to be caught in this net have already been caught.

At some point, probably by next summer, Mueller's investigation will change in nature from "legitimate investigation" to "completely partisan waste of time and money" and everyone will have to admit it.

Give it up, Democrats. You aren't going to impeach Trump and you aren't going to nail him with Russiagate. Your only valid move is to try and win some seats back next November.
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Post by Cail »

Skyweir wrote:Four people charged so far and there not done.
Flynn, Papadopolous (whatever), Manafort and Gates.
None of those charges have anything to do with collusion with Russia.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Ultimately, no one will be charged with "colluded with Russia to influence the outcome of the election"--you can't charge people for crimes which did not occur. After the holiday season people will start to correctly label the Mueller Investigation for the politically-motivated the witch hunt that it is.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Mueller recently handed down indictments against 13 Russian nationals in connection with their efforts to try and influence the outcome of the last Presidential election here. Their efforts were mainly focused on spreading disinformation via social media platforms and even included setting up two opposing rallies for the same day.

The first question which must be asked is this: how is an indictment against a Russian national going to be served? I can hear the Russian government's response to requests for extradition already: nyet.

The next thing to consider is this: when does "political speech" stop being political speech and become "attempting to influence the outcome of an election"? Isn't all political speech technically "attempting to influence the outcome of an election"? Also, when did "being an Internet troll" become a crime? If I put out a meme of a cat eating toothpaste (it was actually Oreo cookie filling but in the picture it looks like toothpaste) then I hire a like/click farm to spread the meme everywhere until some brain-dead moron decides to try and really get their cat to eat toothpaste, who is "guilty"--me, for starting the meme, or the moron, for trying it?

If Mueller really wanted to indict the people responsible he should indict every numbskull who believes everything they read on Facebook--those people are, from a certain point of view, too stupid to vote responsibly.

Anyway...the latest charges are against Alex Van Der Zwaan for lying to investigators about his interaction with former Trump campaign aide Rick Gates in September 2016. Other charges include his apparent lie about not turning over an e-mail communication about work he did for the law firm Skadden Arps back in 2012 when Paul Manafort arranged to have that firm prepare a report against Yulia Tymoshenko, former political opponent of Viktor Yanukovych--remember the long thread we had about Ukraine? That's right--the Mueller investigation's tangled web is now reaching back to 2012 to events that have absolutely nothing to do with the 2016 Presidential Election in the United States whatsoever.

At this point, it is past the point where it is clear that the investigation is grasping at straws, desperately trying to find anything they can use in an attempt to get as close to Trump as they can. What we are going to see, when this is all done, is that other than a few people doing shady things they were doing before the campaign there was nothing to this whole investigation. Not only was there no fire, there was barely any smoke.
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Post by Cail »

There's no story there. "FBI Finds Nothing" won't sell. So we're indicting people for advertising. We're going to put the Soviet version of Sterling Cooper on trial.

Were this not such a serious miscarriage of justice it'd be comedic. Although it is hysterical that Michael Moore, who's been beating the collusion drum since the beginning, was at a Russian-sponsored protest in front of Trump Tower.
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Post by Zarathustra »

As Tucker said tonight, all the charges so far are for things that happened during the investigation itself ... lying to the investigators. If there hadn't been an investigation, none of these crimes would have even occurred.
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Post by Savor Dam »

Looking at it another way, none of these crimes would have been committed if statements to the investigators had not contained untruth. No need to be overly forthcoming; just don't actually lie and there is no crime. Why do so, other than if the truth is something that needs to be hidden? If so, why is that?
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Post by Zarathustra »

Savor Dam wrote:Looking at it another way, none of these crimes would have been committed if statements to the investigators had not contained untruth. No need to be overly forthcoming; just don't actually lie and there is no crime. Why do so, other than if the truth is something that needs to be hidden? If so, why is that?
I think if FBI interrogators sat any of us down and questioned us long enough about events that happened months or years ago, they'd be able to catch us contradicting ourselves. That's all it takes. And then they can charge you for the crime of 'lying to the FBI.' They can ruin your life and/or career if you don't cooperate, so you plead guilty to make it stop and hope for leniency.

If these people were actually trying to hide 'truths that need to be hidden,' (i.e. other crimes, I assume you mean), then why did they ever admit lying in the first place? In other words, how did the FBI catch them? Is it because the FBI had proof they'd committed these other crimes? Well, then why not charge them for *those* crimes, instead of the crime of lying about them? Or did those being investigated just stupidly forget their lies about these very important things that need to be hidden, and couldn't keep their stories straight? Unlikely. If it's important enough to lie to the FBI, you're going to remember your story.

We haven't endured a months-long special counsel investigation to find out if people lie. We were supposed to find out about Russia collusion. None of the charges have to do with collusion. It's just the FBI bullying people, trying to get them to give up secrets that the FBI assumes is there without any proof. That's what this entire investigation is: snooping into a President's inner circle without a shred of evidence that it was warranted.

[Edit: a quick Internet search reveals that, for the most part, the things these men were lying about weren't actually crimes. One guy (Alex van der Zwaan) was charged with lying about emailing another guy who has also been charged (Gates). Papadopoulos lied about "the timing, extent, and nature of his relationships and interactions with certain foreign nationals whom he understood to have close connections with senior Russian government officials." Having relationships/interactions with people who are close to Russian officials isn't a crime. But if you have those relationships, and the FBI is trying to get you on collusion, I can see why you might lie about it.]
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Zarathustra wrote:I think if FBI interrogators sat any of us down and questioned us long enough about events that happened months or years ago, they'd be able to catch us contradicting ourselves. That's all it takes. And then they can charge you for the crime of 'lying to the FBI.' They can ruin your life and/or career if you don't cooperate, so you plead guilty to make it stop and hope for leniency.
Absolutely. After your fifth or sixth 6-hour-long cross-examination there is bound to be some fact which you remembered incorrectly and/or misrepresented in some manner, especially after they check your answers against the answers other people gave. At that moment, you are toast--you are now on record committing "lying to FBI investigators" (at best) or perjury (at worst). It doesn't even matter what the lie or misrepresentation is or how trivial it may be--you remembered having veal parmigiana while the other people remembered you having ziti, so therefore someone is "lying"--all that matters is that a statement does not line up with an earlier statement or with someone else's statement.

As I said, not only is there no fire, there isn't even smoke to indicate a possible fire.

That statements would never have been uttered had the investigation--no, let's start calling it the witch hunt that it is--not gone down rabbit holes it should not have.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The DNC is suing the Trump Campaign, Russia--how do you sue a foreign country? *shrug*--Julian Assange (founder of WikiLeaks), and unnamed associates of Trump himself over allegations of racketeering, hacking, and fraud which they claimed harmed the DNC and the Democratic Party in 2016 when internal e-mail messages were released in 2016.

I suspect the DNC is still just upset that people got to see its dirty laundry. The only *real* conspiracy in 2016 was that the DNC conspired with the Clinton Campaign to set up the debate schedule to favor her and to lock Bernie Sanders out of the nomination process.
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Who even cares any more? :lol:

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The DNC cares a lot, especially since they all put their chips on Hillary and lost. Yes, it is about 2.5 years out but--bizarrely--*now* is the time for people to start testing the waters of a 2020 Presidential bid and the Democrats have no clear front-runner. This is making them a little nervous despite their positive outlook for 2018.
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The never-ending election cycle...what would we do if people weren't focused on who was going to be in charge of screwing things up next? :lol:

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Post by Cail »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:The DNC cares a lot, especially since they all put their chips on Hillary and lost. Yes, it is about 2.5 years out but--bizarrely--*now* is the time for people to start testing the waters of a 2020 Presidential bid and the Democrats have no clear front-runner. This is making them a little nervous despite their positive outlook for 2018.
The DNC cares, and Hillary won't shut up about it. There was an article on Politico last week that reported that on election night she said, "They were never going to let me win."


Horseshit Hillary. You're massively unlikeable, and you ran a terrible campaign. It has nothing to do with your naughty bits, and everything to do with keeping lying, criminal scum like you out of the White House.
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Post by Skyweir »

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Post by Zarathustra »

Bump.

Time to deal with this, people. You've ignored it far too long.

I know I promised to leave, because there were some here I don't want to have a conversation with, but there are also a lot of lurkers. You deserve to hear the truth. Now that it's proven that the Trump-Russia collusion story was a hoax, it's time to reconsider these facts:

1. Obama ordered his cyber chief in 2016 to "stand down" against Russian cyber attacks.

2. Obama was caught on an open mic telling Putin he'd have more flexibility after the election.

3. Hillary approved a deal to give Russian our uranium while her foundation was receiving donations from the Russians, and Bill received a massive raise in his "speaking fees" for speaking in Russia.


4. The DNC servers--which the Dems claimed were hacked by Russians--have STILL never been examined by our intelligence agencies.


5. Those servers weren't actually hacked, as the data transfer rate shows it had to have come from someone physically plugging into the servers.


6. The same FBI agent who changed the language in his report to exonerate Hillary of obvious crimes was the agent who launched the witch hunt hoax Russiagate investigation into Trump, after texting his FBI agent lover that they'd "stop him" (i.e. Trump) if he became President. This agent was so biased that Mueller had to kick him off the Special Council investigation.


7. The Russia investigation began from phony information provided by the Russians, paid for by Hillary's campaign--though they hid this from the FISA court in order to launch an a spying/sting operation on the Trump campaign, including surveillance and planting spies within his campaign.


8. Numerous illegal leaks from our intelligence agencies tried to undermine an INNOCENT Trump.


9. Over 50 "bombshells" about Russian collusion published in our mainstream media were actually false.

10. FBI agent Lisa Page confirmed under oath that the FBI was ordered by the Obama DOJ not to consider charging Hillary Clinton for gross negligence in the handling of classified information. [I note the irony that Mr Reliable, who was so sure that Trump obstructed justice in firing Comey, and argued against the idea that Hillary committed crimes in having an illegal private server, didn't utter a peep when Hashi posted this news. Obama clearly obstructed justice here! Do you deserve to "suffer the consequences," V?]

Before you all rush to "fact check" all these claims, so you can find a way to dismiss them, remember that the sources you'll run to are the same ones who have been telling us for 2 years that Trump is guilty of colluding with the Russians. It's time for you to be skeptical of something other than pro-Trump/anti-Dem stories.

After the world-changing revelation that Trump was innocent all along, you've got to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you were wrong to dismiss all the shit I've listed above. I've been talking about this stuff for years, but people like Sky and Mr Reliable (who were sure Trump committed crimes) poo-pooed them. Ask yourself if you were wrong to agree with the news sources (and posters here) who said all these facts above were no big deal. They made you believe that Trump collusion WAS a big deal, when it wasn't. Obviously, there are lots of you out there who are poor judges of what is a big deal. I offer this post as a chance for you to remedy that.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

That was my favorite story because no one could credibly refute the evidence as it was presented, meaning that the servers were not hacked remotely.

Wasn't there a DNC staffer/intern who got murdered in Washington, D. C. a couple of years ago and when police found the body he still had cash in his wallet and a nice watch on his wrist?
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
That was my favorite story because no one could credibly refute the evidence as it was presented, meaning that the servers were not hacked remotely.

Wasn't there a DNC staffer/intern who got murdered in Washington, D. C. a couple of years ago and when police found the body he still had cash in his wallet and a nice watch on his wrist?
Seth Rich. People think that the Clintons had something to do with the murder. Apparently Donna Brazile even fears for her life. The article states that the intelligence community states that Russian hackers infiltrated DNC servers and linked to Wikileaks (commonly thought that Seth Rich did that; Assange even hinted at it in the past that he was the leaker), the same intelligence community that says that Trump colluded with Russia. The same intelligence community that contradicts the article you posted about the evidence actually supporting an insider in the DNC, not shadowy Russian hackers that apparently love Gucci clothes. The same intelligence community that lied about WMDs in Iraq.

I see a pattern here. I don't believe the CIA and their lies, and that bitch probably belongs in prison.
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Post by Skyweir »

Wow thats a lot of articles .. I will read each one and comment on your post shortly Z.

I know I havent read them yet, but its hard to believe that any solitary individual, let alone a political party could wield the influence you have implied.

Of course AFTER reading your ... evidence .. that might be different. Nevertheless, Mueller is not a party player and definitely NOT a Democrat playboy .. that dude is straight up Apolitical in his professional dealings and has an established REPUTATION for being such. Not to mention that he is Republican. Which I know frustrated the hell out of Trump cod he could NOT be influenced. Not because of any unprofessional fealty to Obama or Clinton. As I said Mueller is a rulebook man, as straight as they come.

Obama, Clinton, Trump, I dont hold in that kind of esteem. I am sure they are all capable enough of misdeeds. Whether such amounts to criminality remains to be seen.

Though it is more important that truth and reason prevail than defending political allegiances.

In my view, truth is more important than partisan warfare. Once that truth is known .. and the public release of Mueller findings will be pivotal in that imv .. or alternatively till the material, all if it is disclosed in the fullness of times ๐Ÿ˜‰ meaning once the archives act or whatever administrative rules information is released under ... re their ultimate required public disclosure.

Then we can paw through it all instead of speculative interpretation of snippets of information we think we know.
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