Beware the decline of Christianity

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Beware the decline of Christianity

Post by SoulBiter »

Richard Dawkins recently wrote:
Before we rejoice at the death throes of the relatively benign Christian religion, lets not forget Hilaire Bellocs menacing rhyme, Always keep a hold of nurse For fear of finding something worse.
In the article he warns that although he believes that religion in any form is harmful, that in Europe we are seeing a marked decline in Christianity but a marked increase in the Islamic faith.

As we are seeing a decline in Christianity in Europe and indeed the US, are we opening the door to not a pure secular society but rather a society with Islam as the primary religion that is growing very quickly? There are now millions of followers of Islam in Europe and this number is growing due to procreation within the immigrant society that is higher than other demographics. Not only that, instead of Muslims turning away from their faith, they have high retention and conversion from secular and other religions. Statistics show that those that identify as Muslim will make up 30% of Europe's population by 2050.

Knowing how the Islamic faith has impacted the middle east where it is most prevalent, does that worry any of you?
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Post by Revan »

I'm resigned to it now; the future of Britain and Europe is Islamic. I just hope when it does happen it can be a more progressive form of Islam... after all "Islam" is not one thing; Turkey is very difference from Iran, Indonesia is different from Saudi Arabia. Even within those countries there are vast differences... just like our own.
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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
SoulBiter wrote:Knowing how the Islamic faith has impacted the middle east where it is most prevalent, does that worry any of you?
Well, I know how Protestantism has impacted the west, and particularly America, where it's most prevalent. Not all thorns, perhaps, but certainly not all roses, either.

Different times & places, different challenges & opportunities.


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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

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Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
SoulBiter wrote:Knowing how the Islamic faith has impacted the middle east where it is most prevalent, does that worry any of you?
Well, I know how Protestantism has impacted the west, and particularly America, where it's most prevalent. Not all thorns, perhaps, but certainly not all roses, either.

Different times & places, different challenges & opportunities.
Well said
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Post by Zarathustra »

Islam is a cancer upon human society. This should worry everyone. Dawkins is right.
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Post by Revan »

Zarathustra wrote:Islam is a cancer upon human society. This should worry everyone. Dawkins is right.
I'm an atheist; but I'd take more Dawkins more seriously if he hadn't spent the better part of the last 2 decades cutting down Christianity.

Supposedly a genius; he's only just realised now that cutting down the foundations of western civilisation might not lead to a utopian world of Reason? Idiot.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Revan, no man is above criticism, even geniuses. However, if he's changing his mind, it's a little late to call him an idiot. A wise man is continuously correcting his errors.

However, I think he can criticize Christianity without simultaneously attacking the foundations of Western Civilization. Christianity paved the way, but it was the context against which the Enlightenment arose in opposition--which in my mind defines Western Civilization more than anything else.
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Post by Revan »

Zarathustra wrote:Revan, no man is above criticism, even geniuses. However, if he's changing his mind, it's a little late to call him an idiot. A wise man is continuously correcting his errors.

However, I think he can criticize Christianity without simultaneously attacking the foundations of Western Civilization. Christianity paved the way, but it was the context against which the Enlightenment arose in opposition--which in my mind defines Western Civilization more than anything else.
You're correct in a lot of ways; the enlightenment did a great deal to bring the Western world from the Dark Ages. I would note however I don't think the Western World would be what it is today without Christianity (I repeat that I'm an atheist and have been since my early teens), particularly Protestantism:
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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

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SoulBiter wrote:Statistics show that those that identify as Muslim will make up 30% of Europe's population by 2050.
that's either horseshit or neo-nazi/nationalist superiority shit...the difference being horseshit is useful for something.

the whiteRight Chrisitians, Trumpzis, assorted EU and Putanic tribes worry me more. A LOT more.
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Post by Skyweir »

I agree V .. I think this is an orchestrated revelation that means pretty much nothing. 🙄

Islam is just another mythology .. why would you be concerned .. because of radicalised Islamists 🤷‍♀️

I think Dawkins is slightly off .. I think the day will inevitably come where religions are a thing of the passed.

Protestant christianity and catholicism all favourably in some respects influenced the development of the west .. christian ideals have influenced our legal and our political systems and the way we as humans agree to interact. But thats the ideology and the principals that are derived from the ideology ... and they are worthwhile .. but from a societal perspective thats as far as that goes imo.

I do think Christianity is on a downward slide .. and its losing its grip on humanity.

I appreciate positive worthwhile messaging that is offered from some religious quarters .. but beyond that 🤷‍♀️
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Post by Revan »

Skyweir wrote:I agree V .. I think this is an orchestrated revelation that means pretty much nothing. 🙄

Islam is just another mythology .. why would you be concerned .. because of radicalised Islamists 🤷‍♀️

I think Dawkins is slightly off .. I think the day will inevitably come where religions are a thing of the passed.

Protestant christianity and catholicism all favourably in some respects influenced the development of the west .. christian ideals have influenced our legal and our political systems and the way we as humans agree to interact. But thats the ideology and the principals that are derived from the ideology ... and they are worthwhile .. but from a societal perspective thats as far as that goes imo.

I do think Christianity is on a downward slide .. and its losing its grip on humanity.

I appreciate positive worthwhile messaging that is offered from some religious quarters .. but beyond that 🤷‍♀️
There will never be a time where a large portion of people don't need religion. Look at Russia and China, after decades of atheism and now religion has surged back with the population.
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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

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SoulBiter wrote:Statistics show that those that identify as Muslim will make up 30% of Europe's population by 2050.
14%, worst case. Still, it's troubling.

I work with a lot of Muslim families. I typically bury 2-3 Muslims a week, so when I say that I have experience with literally thousands of them, I mean it.

Due to the nature of my job, I can't and won't go into specifics, however there is a stark contrast in the way I'm treated (6'2", 200 pound, 50-ish white man), and the way the women I work with (and for) are treated. Pointing out this obvious truth isn't horseshit, neo-nazi supremacist shit, and I suspect that people who say that haven't spent a lot of time around Muslims, and/or are afraid to be labeled as racist (which is stupid, because Islam's not a race).

If you value equal treatment of women and homosexuals, as well as the freedom to call religion, "fantasy", then the rise of Islam in Europe, and the wave of emigration from the ME should concern you greatly.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

There have been big wars between the Christian and Muslim worlds in the distant past, and pretty good ones recently against IS. As well as IS against other Muslim groups. And Muslims vs Isreal. And, and, and... I'm sure all this will continue.
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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

Post by SoulBiter »

Vraith wrote:
that's either horseshit or neo-nazi/nationalist superiority shit...the difference being horseshit is useful for something.

the whiteRight Chrisitians, Trumpzis, assorted EU and Putanic tribes worry me more. A LOT more.
I seem to have hit a sore point with you. Yet regardless of your 'feelings" the facts are that the Muslim population in Europe is growing quickly while at the same time non-muslim populations are decreasing. Cyprus currently has the highest share of Muslims in the EU at 25% and growing. France and Sweden are at 8% and growing.
These growing numbers of Muslims in Europe, combined with the projected shrinkage of the non Muslim population, are expected to result in a rising share of Muslims in Europes overall population in all scenarios.
Even if all current 28 EU members, plus Norway and Switzerland, closed their borders to migrants, the Muslim population share in the west would continue to grow owing to a younger age profile and higher fertility rates, but remain very low in the east.
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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

Post by Cail »

SoulBiter wrote:
Vraith wrote:
that's either horseshit or neo-nazi/nationalist superiority shit...the difference being horseshit is useful for something.

the whiteRight Chrisitians, Trumpzis, assorted EU and Putanic tribes worry me more. A LOT more.
I seem to have hit a sore point with you. Yet regardless of your 'feelings" the facts are that the Muslim population in Europe is growing quickly while at the same time non-muslim populations are decreasing. Cyprus currently has the highest share of Muslims in the EU at 25% and growing. France and Sweden are at 8% and growing.
These growing numbers of Muslims in Europe, combined with the projected shrinkage of the non Muslim population, are expected to result in a rising share of Muslims in Europes overall population in all scenarios.
Even if all current 28 EU members, plus Norway and Switzerland, closed their borders to migrants, the Muslim population share in the west would continue to grow owing to a younger age profile and higher fertility rates, but remain very low in the east.
This is something that really has to get past feelz and political correctness. What's happening in Europe is going to eventually reach a tipping point, and when it does, it will be too late to do anything about. We're a matter of less than 20 years away from the remaking of Europe into a place that will be unrecognizable.
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Fist and Faith wrote:There have been big wars between the Christian and Muslim worlds in the distant past, and pretty good ones recently against IS. As well as IS against other Muslim groups. And Muslims vs Isreal. And, and, and... I'm sure all this will continue.
You can always cast aside your false idols and worship the One True God, a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells; moksha Raver is his Prophet.

I'm not trying to stir the pot too much, but I will just say that Islam itself is a troubling religion. It definitely isn't a religion of peace, unless you mean a different kind of peace... I have personally known some well-educated former Muslims (turned atheists) and they are absolutely terrified to go back to their home countries, which includes Turkey. They point out that in the Quran and Hadiths that there is a certain penalty for leaving their faith... It isn't too hard to find ex-Muslim atheist (or converts to another religion or whatever) sites where they pull up these scriptures. You really can't interpret them any other way. You can choose to ignore troublesome scripture, of course, but I seriously doubt that Islam will reform itself in that way because they believe the scripture was written by god and has words of their prophet.

As a socially liberal person, I find many of the laws and beliefs in Muslim-majority countries to be appalling. Such as the death penalty for blasphemy (or making it illegal, period). Pakistan is a prime example. If you said, for example, "Game of Thrones season 8 is gonna be better than GOD!" in a crowded area in Pakistan, you better run for your life because you just committed blasphemy. (I guess God is too weak to take care of himself, huh? :lol: IMO that's the ultimate blasphemy...how ironic.) No religion can rightfully be immune to criticism and satire. Blasphemy is a natural right because it falls under the right to free speech. It's ridiculous that there are Western nations that still have blasphemy laws on the books (even if 'dead letter'); it's even worse when you can get into legal trouble for it in certain parts of Europe. For societies where the majority proudly say they are Liberal, that sure is awfully Conservative of them. :roll:

Anyone who values liberal forms of government (and not liberal as in Progressive, but the term as it relates to how many Western nations are run where they value freedom and democratic process) needs to stop apologizing for Islam. If you are going to criticize Christianity, you might as well criticize Islam, too. Islam has a lot of things to criticize, especially since the Islamic world is in a similar spot currently as Christian Europe was during the Middle Ages.

Also, atheists (especially ex-Muslims in general) are being murdered in the Middle East, and we (supposedly liberal society) don't do enough to speak up for them. Apologizing for Islam while ignoring the plight of the atheists and converts is wrong, and we should be ashamed.

Of course, I couldn't give a toss, per se, how culture evolves over time, what religion people practice, etc. But I have some serious hangups with common Muslim beliefs and what their scriptures say. I just hope that if secularism doesn't replace Christianity that at least the Mormons will come in and save the day with all their missionary work. After all, you do get your own planet, and the Mormons bake great muffins (so I've heard).



------

In the spirit of free speech, I just wrote a joke. It's kind of rough but I hope you like it. :wink:
Jesus, Mohammed and Thor walk into a gay bar. Jesus orders a glass of water and then miraculously transforms it into wine, which he then offers Mohammed. Mohammed tells Jesus "I don't drink for it is haram!" He then slaps Jesus and walks off. Thor, who is wearing a wedding gown, orders two pints of mead and walks over to the Jotun hottie he spotted earlier. The Jotun accepts the drink and both of them race each other to see who can drink their mead the quickest. Thor, confident of his imminent victory, says "Whoever finishes first gets to pitch!" The Jotun, using some trickery of his own, keeps refilling Thor's glass so that he finishes last. Thor says "What in Asgard did you do that for?" to which the Jotun coyly replies "Baby, I got some more where that came from."
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Post by Skyweir »

Thats interesting Nano. Our experiences are clearly quite different. One of the things I admire of a number of Muslim friends is their worship, their attention to cleanliness .. literal cleanliness, their reverence of what they deem purity of worship .. they use very similar scriptures to Christians, and of course those used in Judaism.

Reliant on the Old Testament they share similar understandings of peace, god, service .. etc. If I needed anything they would do whatever they could to assist me.

Theirs is not the religion ... of extremists. They deplore IS ..

They are a very different people ... from radical Islamists.

Just as the average faithful Christian is not like the crazy Southern baptists that disseminate hatred, racism, sexism, and their antiabortion rhetoric. And do all manner of hateful things because they believe they are acting in gods name.

Those that embrace terrorism are not the average faithful Muslim either but they believe they act in gods name.
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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

Post by Avatar »

Cail wrote:If you value equal treatment of women and homosexuals, as well as the freedom to call religion, "fantasy", then the rise of Islam in Europe, and the wave of emigration from the ME should concern you greatly.
Christianity doesn't value any of those things either of course.

I think any religion whose dogma is slavishly followed utterly literally is concerning.

The only difference is that over time, Christianity has compromised with secular society, something that isn't yet happening with Islam. (Or at least is happening only slowly and in some places, but you have to start somewhere.)

Partly, perhaps, because in the "west" religion has slowly lost its foothold in governance over time, possibly because it's had an extra 600 years in which to exert and lose that dominance.

In some cases that compromise does appear to be happening, (see the "moderate" or non-dogmatic Islam Sky is referencing), which is probably a direct reaction to the extremist Islam that everybody is condemning, which reduces the options of Muslims who are not "extremist" or radical in terms of keeping their religion "acceptable" or else going the whole hog and getting all extremist on people. (Not acceptable in the western countries where they're probably mostly living.)

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Re: Beware the decline of Christianity

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Avatar wrote:
Cail wrote:If you value equal treatment of women and homosexuals, as well as the freedom to call religion, "fantasy", then the rise of Islam in Europe, and the wave of emigration from the ME should concern you greatly.
Christianity doesn't value any of those things either of course.
Bunk. Christianity doesn't stone people, throw them off buildings, or behead them. Nor do they do this.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Skyweir wrote:Thats interesting Nano. Our experiences are clearly quite different. One of the things I admire of a number of Muslim friends is their worship, their attention to cleanliness .. literal cleanliness, their reverence of what they deem purity of worship .. they use very similar scriptures to Christians, and of course those used in Judaism.

Reliant on the Old Testament they share similar understandings of peace, god, service .. etc. If I needed anything they would do whatever they could to assist me.

Theirs is not the religion ... of extremists. They deplore IS ..

They are a very different people ... from radical Islamists.

Just as the average faithful Christian is not like the crazy Southern baptists that disseminate hatred, racism, sexism, and their antiabortion rhetoric. And do all manner of hateful things because they believe they are acting in gods name.

Those that embrace terrorism are not the average faithful Muslim either but they believe they act in gods name.
Most Muslims I know personally (which isn't to say I know many personally) all seem to be very kind, genuinely good people. However, we shouldn't let that get in the way of pointing out the problems with the Quran and other Islamic texts. There are ex-Muslim activists who get disinvited from giving special talks at universities because people are overly sensitive to any criticism of Islam, falsely stating that people who speak against Islam are spreading hate.


Also keep in mind that the Old Testament has some pretty messed up stuff in it, too. There are tales of divinely sanctioned rape and genocide and people being put to the death for homosexuality and worshipping other gods. Some of the worst examples of atrocities committed by Christians were justified by the Old Testament texts, although nowadays Christians are taught that they are not subject to Mosaic Law, and they largely ignore the Old Testament except for learning how Jesus Christ was supposed to have fulfilled prophecy as the Messiah. The only thing that Christ himself said in the New Testament that could be interpreted as justification of violence would be when he told one of his disciples something (paraphrased) like "There will come a time when you shall sell your cloak and buy a sword."

Also, radical Islamists get their justification directly from Islamic scripture. They aren't just fringe theologians saying crap and garnering a cult-like following. No, they always use verses directly from their scripture and that helps support their claim that they are a "purer version of Islam" or whatever. If you want to fight radicalization, you have to confront the scripture of Islam itself. Islam is in dire need of reform if it is to save itself... for the sake of everyone.

Muslims even admit that Mohammed went on a conquest spree in the Arabian peninsula. How is spreading religion by the sword good? In areas that Islam dominated, pagans were put to the death while Jews and Christians were made to pay a tax in order to freely practice their religion (or they could convert and not have to pay the extra tax). That wasn't right, either.

Not to say that Christians don't have their own sins, like I mentioned above. One of the saddest things that I remember learning about while in Catholic education was when Christianity took over in Rome and Christians desecrated the Temple of Vesta. It is said that after they extinguished the Flame, the Vestal Virgins said "What have you done?" That and the spread of Christianity throughout Europe.

Also, I will say (and I must go in a minute) rather quickly that I believe that revered religious figures can be "reformed." It doesn't necessarily matter if the story of their prophets are 100% accurate so long as people believe the stories. For example, Joseph Smith wasn't the rosiest figure ever. He had over 40 wives, some of whom were as young as 14 years of age. Yet Mormons still love him because of how they are taught about him. Go watch "Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration" on Youtube (an LDS film) and you will see how Mormons view Joseph Smith. Hell, I shed a few tears after watching the film, myself.

EDIT: Funny that you should mention Southern Baptists. I find that they are pretty typical of Evangelical Christians in general. That happens to be a huge segment of the Christian population in America. In fact, that group has a stranglehold on the GOP, giving us idiots like Rick Sanitorium or whatever his name is.
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