Did the Bloodguard betray the Lords?

[Ur Dead]

Until Elena confronted Bannor about the seventh Ward. Did the Bloodguard
hold information from the Lords?
They arrived in the time of Kevin, saw all the wonders and pledge their undying
oath to serve and protect the Lords.
It was the years from their oath to the RoD that they surely learned the
Seven Words of power from the Lords of that time.
It was probably used more frequently during this time than any other.

Yet when the Lords reformed they were silent.
Some may argue that unearned power is dangerous.
But those word were given to Berek without the toil.
Surely the new Lords needed as much help as possible because Foul would return.

Was it the Bloodguards hubris that they kept silent?

Also it bring up a new question..
Did the Giants know?

[Lazy Luke]

Hello Ur Dead,

First time I read the FC I thought the Land and its denizens were awesome.
On subsequent reads my opinions changed. I'm more a Thomas Covenant fan than that of the Land'sfolk.
What the town's people did to him was unforgivable. Likewise the burden laid upon him by the people of the Land was equally unacceptable.

The Lords seem to me like Tolkien's Hobbits; practically hidden away, childlike and protected from a "World at Large". Maybe the Bloodguard took their oath to keep watch over the Lords knowing how powerful Kevin's magic was. Lord Foul simply being a fly in the ointment.

Perhaps Kevin is Covenant ... grown up ... Kevinuant ... Coven Nun ... Coventy Dumb ... Numpty Dumpty ... Golden Wonder's Coughing Nuts ... wait a minute ... I'm gettin' dizzy!

Is there any direct evidence of what happened to the Giants under the bane of Kinslaughterer? Foamfollower was missing from the story of the Illearth War and we have only Tull and Runnik's account of the tragedy of Seareach.
So yeah, maybe its possible that the Giants took a similar oath, leaving the Land to protect the Lords from an unspeakable power. For reasons unknown to me, Foamfollower was left behind???

Did the Bloodguard betray the Lords? No.
If they betrayed anyone it would've been Kevin, and Covenant.

[IrrationalSanity]

I would not say the Bloodguard "betrayed" the Lords. Certainly they knew much more than they let on, but at the time of the Vow, The Land was already well into the Age of Kevin. At that point, chances are that A Jeroth (Foul) was already embedded in the Council, and Kevin would have begun his process of creating the compendium of Wards.

In this time, aside from some ongoing haranguing around the edges by the Ravers and ur Viles, there was probably not much call for overt displays of Earthpower Lore. So, while there may have been some knowledge of having the Lore used, the Haruchai will never have actually studied it. And with their sense of absolutism, they would not have seen fit to actually interject or correct the New Lords as they learned their way around Earthpower on their own. Perhaps, if directly queried (as by Elena), they would answer a question at hand, but never with more information than was explicitly within the scope asked.

As for the Giants, They created Revelstone out of gratitude to the Giantfriend/Earthfriend Berek for his prophesy of the end to their long suffering. Of the Lore of the Law, they had little experience. They had Lore of Stone (but not necessarily the same as the Land's Stonelore) and Lore of the Sea. They would not have withheld, but their lore probably would not have been effective.

In both cases (Haruchai and Giant), even though Earthpower is core, Lore is merely a means of expression. The Power itself is shaped and channeled through the wielder by way of the Lore, and a tool not designed to the hand of the wielder ultimately turns upon them (See Drool and the Staff, Humans and the Illearth stone). The Giants would have no way of evaluating how the Seven (human) Words relate, because it is so different to the expression of their own forms of Earthpower.

And as for Kinslaughterer, that story is elaborated upon by the Dead of The Grieve. Foamfollower didn't participate, because he fled. This guilt hung over him, unassuageable by Caamora, until his immersion in the river of fire allowed him to be reborn in new innocence.

[Ur Dead]

Foamfollower left the Grieve because his people gave in to despair.
He alone had hope to fight the Raver but when he saw what his
people were doing, he left.
He was labelled Kinabandoner .

If the Lords had learn the seven words in order they may have made better progress in reading Kevin's first ward.
They might have concluded that their hinderance was the "Oath of Peace" and forgo it so they could understand Keven's wards faster

They weren't any closer to the seven when Thomas showed up
My conjecture is that the Bloodguard have had to hear the seven words spoken correctly.
If one of them knows then all of them know and they remember.
In a thousand years they never offered the words to the Lords.
Since The RoD they never assisted the new lords. They knew some lore and kept it to themselves. They knew doubt and they never questioned their vow.
That was hubris..

It was the Giants who presented Keven's first ward to the Lords.
You would think as love lived the Giants were they also know the seven.

I would offer more arguments but it plays into the last series of books and this is for the first 6.

[Savor Dam]

I do not see the silence of the Haruchai as hubris, but as a natural extension of their rejection of all weapons, be they physical or magical. They placed no reliance on the Arts of Sword or Staff, so their reticence to volunteer any knowledge from their centuries of observing Lords harnessing Lore is in no way surprising.

Since it seems appropriate and not quite a spoiler...

The words that I remember
From my childhood still are true
That there's none so blind
As those who will not see
And to those who lack the courage
And say it's dangerous to try
Well they just don't know
That love eternal will not be denied

Yes, I really am fond of that verse...

[Lazy Luke]

If the Lords had learn the seven words in order they may have made better progress in reading Kevin's first ward.
They might have concluded that their hinderance was the "Oath of Peace" and forgo it so they could understand Keven's wards faster.

If the First Ward was really just a complex series of instructions on how to call the Fire Lions, would they have been any the wiser knowing how to do so sooner?

[wayfriend]

Morin and Bannor explained why the had never revealed the contents of the Seventh Ward, even though they knew all along. I am satisfied that their explanation suffices to explain why they never revealed the Seven Words of Power, or anything else along those lines.

Bannor's gaze did not waver. In his familiar, awkward, atonal inflection, he replied, "Ur-Lord, we have seen the Desecration. We have seen the fruit of perilous lore. Lore is not knowledge. Lore is a weapon, a sword or spear. The Bloodguard have no use for weapons. Any knife may turn and wound the hand which wields it. Yet the Lords desire lore. They do work of value with it. Therefore we do not resist it, though we do not touch it or serve it or save it.

"High Lord Kevin made his Wards to preserve his lore-and to lessen the peril that his weapons might fall into unready hands. This we approve. We are the Bloodguard. We do not speak of lore. We speak only of what we know."

As far as the Bloodguard were concerned, if the Lords didn't know all seven Words, then they weren't ready to know. They respected Kevin too much to ever think anything else.

[IrrationalSanity]

Morin and Bannor explained why the had never revealed the contents of the Seventh Ward, even though they knew all along. I am satisfied that their explanation suffices to explain why they never revealed the Seven Words of Power, or anything else along those lines.

Bannor's gaze did not waver. In his familiar, awkward, atonal inflection, he replied, "Ur-Lord, we have seen the Desecration. We have seen the fruit of perilous lore. Lore is not knowledge. Lore is a weapon, a sword or spear. The Bloodguard have no use for weapons. Any knife may turn and wound the hand which wields it. Yet the Lords desire lore. They do work of value with it. Therefore we do not resist it, though we do not touch it or serve it or save it.

"High Lord Kevin made his Wards to preserve his lore-and to lessen the peril that his weapons might fall into unready hands. This we approve. We are the Bloodguard. We do not speak of lore. We speak only of what we know."

As far as the Bloodguard were concerned, if the Lords didn't know all seven Words, then they weren't ready to know. They respected Kevin too much to ever think anything else.

I don't see this as in conflict with my thoughts above. If Kevin's Wards had the Lore of the Sword and Staff, the hirebrands of Wood, the gravelingas of Stone, the Giants of Stone (albeit a form different from the Land folk's) and Sea. We could say the Haruchai possessed and used a Lore of the Fist (though they would never say that). In a sense, their reluctance to share unearned knowledge makes them a sort of "ur-Ward"...

[wayfriend]

I can't agree. I do not think it was Kevin's intent that the new Lords obtain any lore from the Bloodguard at any point. Hence they are no Ward. Whatever knowledge the Haruchai have of Kevin's Lore was incidental and unintentional. If Kevin knew enough of about the Haruchai to know that they might retain any knowledge beyond the Desecration, then he also knew enough to realize that their discretion could be counted upon, and they would not pass it on.

[IrrationalSanity]

I can't agree. I do not think it was Kevin's intent that the new Lords obtain any lore from the Bloodguard at any point. Hence they are no Ward. Whatever knowledge the Haruchai have of Kevin's Lore was incidental and unintentional. If Kevin knew enough of about the Haruchai to know that they might retain any knowledge beyond the Desecration, then he also knew enough to realize that their discretion could be counted upon, and they would not pass it on.

Not disagreeing with that statement. Kevin definitely didn't use the Haruchai in that sense at all. I only mean that they became that by default. I used the prefix "ur" in the a similar fashion to how it was used in the series - to describe something that is like unto, but not, something else (i.e. ur-Viles, ur-Lord). They have knowledge - gained from observation and experience, and fiercely protect it to prevent its misuse.

Spoiler

Which is taken to an extreme by the Masters in Final.

[Ur Dead]

Still sticking to my guns on this...

Whom did the Bloodguard hold in the highest esteem?

Spoiler

Who was it that gave Berek the words?
Shouldn't have the Haruchai followed in the footsteps to attain their
salvation? Become more like him? And what did he(K.A) do for the first Lord?

Any less would have diminished their vow. With that they believe it would
led to corruption. But their vow was to fight corruption. So why hold back
the knowledge.

[IrrationalSanity]

What that individual did at the beginning was to serve his own interests. In the end, he also served as a protector of Power, to prevent it from falling into the hands of those who were not worthy/ready.

Spoiler

Still, he gave Berek the words only after he had initially already heard them, though his memory of them was hazy.

[Lazy Luke]

If they betrayed anyone it would've been Kevin, and Covenant.

Chapter 24
The Calling of Lions:

Bannor said, "High Lord Kevin ordered us away, and we obeyed. We will not do such a thing again"

Also it bring up a new question..
Did the Giants know?

If the Fire Lions were actually the Giants, enacting an extravagant form of caamora, then they may have been bound to a differant sort of vow than the Bloodguard.

Abruptly, Covenant found that his rage was gone - collapsed into dust. He felt blasted and wrecked, and he sank to the ground as if his bones could not hold him. His eyes had a tattered look, like the sails of a ghost ship. Without caring what he did, he pushed his wedding band back on to his ring finger.

Wasn't the term - ghost ship - used in an earlier chapter when Covenant was on his balcony in Revelstone, watching the red moon drift into view from behind the mountains? Only this time around the stain was now gone leaving the ring argent and clean.

[Vraith]

I think you're reasoning from a number of false/anti-textual things.

First, in re some spoilers:

Spoiler

Why/how would the Bloodguard have known that the "giver" of the words and K.A. were the same person? They wouldn't. They couldn't. The Har. who became the Bloodguard didn't meet the Lords until a thousand years AFTER the Har. who encountered K.A. and have no reason/encounter at all to connect the two beings, nor even to know that it was K.A. who "gave" the words.

There are several other problems related to that spoilerd thing, but that's a deadly one.

Also...
Is there power in the words and "pronouncing them good?"
[[[[MMMM-OU-nt S-I-nn-A-I]]]
Not as far as I can tell.
The power is in understanding the meaning/content in particular, AND having the general Lore those particulars apply to, AND having the "talent" [mix of passion, insight, and intuition]

Why, and how, might the Bloodguard have known all of that?
Tons of people can teach Frere Jacques to tons of other people and none of them get any use/meaning from it.

You could also look at Loric's krill for a warning if the BG DID convey something with some useful content---content that would have been corrupt via ignorance AT LEAST:
It's awakening/use was almost entirely horrible in outcomes.
And the one good and cool use...by Mhoram...was CAUSED by the capacity to desecrate...NOT advancement of knowledge/words/lore on the "good" side. Entirely a linkage with "the dark side."
Was extremely limited, though glorious and pivotal for the "good guys."...but only by accident.

For all you know...and I think equally, or even more likely...that last word would have resulted in TC being summoned by bad/ignorant Lords hell bent [due to ignorance or LF's manipulation] on giving White Gold to LF in order to "cure" him of Despite, and/or end his torture/confinement.
[[OK, that seems a bit weird, but there is a train of thought and actual text to support it.]]

[bikebryan]

Your timeline is WAY off. No Haruchai EVER meant KA until long after the first chronicles.....They did however encounter the Vizard and were TOLD of KA, but KA was already out of the picture then.

[Vraith]

Your timeline is WAY off. No Haruchai EVER meant KA until long after the first chronicles.....They did however encounter the Vizard and were TOLD of KA, but KA was already out of the picture then.

Hah! Ooops...I conflated two different ones. OTOH, that makes my point more likely, that the Har. wouldn't have any meaningful help to give as far as Lore.

The Giants are the more likely people guilty, if keeping things to oneself is the "betrayal." They hung out through 3 of the 4 original/mighty High Lords, [[or was it all 4? I don't recall if they knew Berek or not]] they remember everything important, have Tongues [if it's the words that matter] and use a kind of Lore.

[bikebryan]

Your timeline is WAY off. No Haruchai EVER meant KA until long after the first chronicles.....They did however encounter the Vizard and were TOLD of KA, but KA was already out of the picture then.

Hah! Ooops...I conflated two different ones. OTOH, that makes my point more likely, that the Har. wouldn't have any meaningful help to give as far as Lore.

The Giants are the more likely people guilty, if keeping things to oneself is the "betrayal." They hung out through 3 of the 4 original/mighty High Lords, [[or was it all 4? I don't recall if they knew Berek or not]] they remember everything important, have Tongues [if it's the words that matter] and use a kind of Lore.

Do we know if the Unhomed received the gift of tongues? Foamfollower certainly was around ur-viles during that time yet not once did he ever hint he understood them in any way. The same goes for the Cavewights.

[Ur Dead]

The Unhomed probably never had the gift of tongues. That may have come later when the Giants met the Elohim. By that time the Unhomed were at Seareach.
They were befriended by Damelon. (Bereks son).
It was during this time that Revelstone was built.
So there were 3 of the old high Lords the Unhomed were familair.
What I can't fathom is that in all those years the Giants would have never heard the 7 words express while visiting.
It was Kevin who gave the 1st ward to the Giants. And the Giants gave that ward to the new Lords.
So were the words in the 1st ward?
Only 4 or 5 of the words were know when LFB came out.
Why didn't the Bloodguard or Giants fill in the missing words.

[wayfriend]

We know why the Bloodguard didn't.

I would assume that the Giant's respected Kevin's wishes. Kevin clearly didn't reveal this information in the First Ward. Therefore, he didn't want it revealed. Therefore, the Giants did not reveal it.

(You have to also consider the idea that the Seven Words were right there in the First Ward all along. But the new Lords had not completely learned everything in it, by their own admission. Again, the Giants, respecting Kevin's wishes, would not spoil the ending.)

"Why don't they come right out and tell you what you need to know?"

"Ah, that is plain to me," Pitchwife replied on Covenant's behalf. "Unearned knowledge is perilous. Only by the seeking and gaining of it may its uses be understood, its true worth measured. Had Gossamer Glowlimn my wife been mystically granted the skill and power of her blade without training or test or experience, by what means could she then choose where to strike her blows, how extremely to put forth her strength? Unearned knowledge rules its wielder, to the cost of both."

If this isn't an answer, then it does not exist.

Given that this is an angle which Donaldson did not write about, and may not have even considered, I think any explanation you find which satisfies your own concerns is sufficient. Because there isn't a canonical explanation.

Personally, I think the Giant's were never keepers of Lore. So they did not keep this. They may not have forgotten it, but they certainly didn't care enough about it to do anything. It wasn't part of their world.

[Vraith]

Do we know if the Unhomed received the gift of tongues?

There is no explicit text-evidence/timeline. There are extractable/implicit reasons to think they would have...but they are loose, and entirely in spoiler territory.
The only known thing that I recall without re-searching/reading from the first chron's that tends that way [and it only helps in conjunction with the other stuff] is that the Giants had significant encounters/transactions with/knowledge of the Elohim and Bhrathair and such a very long time before they ever knew Damelon. And not just ANY Giants...the traveling tribe that ended up meeting Damelon.

My thoughts overlap with WF on this.
The thing quoted on unearned knowledge.
It's impossible in my mind that the Giants didn't recall the words. Remember: All the Giants that raised up Foamfollower KNEW the Old Lords PERSONALLY, for a couple millennia.
They had to know the words. They ALSO knew the words didn't mean crap without other knowledge, AND a little knowledge doesn't make them useful, it makes them dangerous.
[[Side-note/thing I need to ponder---it's just occurred to me that, in these novels, it SEEMS like people are interpreting "perilous" "hazardous," etc. on this issue to mean MIGHT have bad outcomes. All the evidence, however, is that such things WILL, ALWAYS, have bad outcomes. That leads to a whole other realm of consideration/debate, though.]]