The Mueller Investigation

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Skyweir
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Post by Skyweir »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:It doesn't matter if there is no precedent for it or if it seems odd, the fact remains that the DoJ made its decision and that settles it. Flynn is a free man so all the supporters of the fake Mueller prosecutions lose again.

If Barr's decision is legal, then arguments against it are all irrelevant. The guilty plea againt Flynn was originally procured under disturbing circumstances because the FBI was punishing people for belonging to the wrong political party.
Interesting 🤔 Flynns guilty pleasure wasnt secured under duress, by compulsion ... it was declared by Flynn. A technicality may have won this day for him but the dude declared his guilt UNDEF OATH .. and now he gets off.

Yes this is unprecedented .. unprecedented for the DOJ to investigate itself ... thats his this discrepancy was identified.

Guilt is always hard to prove cuz the onus sits squarely with the State but in this case, the guilty party actually declared his guilt in testimony under oath.

At best thats disturbingly to me.
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Post by SoulBiter »

The motion to dismiss
shows that the FBI agents who sought to set a perjury trap for Gen. Flynn should have never stepped foot in his office: the interview of Mr. Flynn was untethered to, and unjustified by, the FBIs counterintelligence investigation into Mr. Flynn a no longer justifiably predicated investigation that the FBI had, in the Bureaus own words, prepared to close because it had yielded an absence of any derogatory information.

The trap they set failed: we [do] not believe that the Government can prove either the relevant false statements or their materiality beyond a reasonable doubt. We already knew the agents did not believe that Gen. Flynn was trying to deceive them; that Gen. Flynn knew they had transcripts of the calls, and therefore would have no reason to dissemble; and that he admittedly lacked a firm recollection of the calls.

It shows that the FBI kept open its counterintelligence investigation into Mr. Flynn based solely on his calls with [Russian Ambassador Sergei] Kislyak calls that were, in the federal government's words, entirely appropriate for a national security advisor designate to be having and that the DOJ recognized this in coming to the general view that the Logan Act of dubious constitutionality and for which no American has ever been convicted would be difficult to prosecute.
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Post by SoulBiter »

In this situation specifically law enforcement WAS the enemy of Americans. This was an all out effort to entrap a US Citizen in order to use that as leverage to get incriminating evidence on the Trump team. It was a travesty of justice if there ever was one.

Read for yourself:
Entrapment is a practice whereby a law enforcement agent or agent of the state induces a person to commit a crime that the person would have otherwise been unlikely or unwilling to commit.
That is illegal in the US. So by bringing him into a room under false pretenses with no evidence a crime has been committed specifically to see if you can get him to lie (commit a crime), the State agent has broken the law and done so premeditatedly.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
SoulBiter wrote:In this situation specifically law enforcement WAS the enemy of Americans. This was an all out effort to entrap a US Citizen in order to use that as leverage to get incriminating evidence on the Trump team. It was a travesty of justice if there ever was one.

Read for yourself:
Entrapment is a practice whereby a law enforcement agent or agent of the state induces a person to commit a crime that the person would have otherwise been unlikely or unwilling to commit.
That is illegal in the US. So by bringing him into a room under false pretenses with no evidence a crime has been committed specifically to see if you can get him to lie (commit a crime), the State agent has broken the law and done so premeditatedly.
So, "If you hadn't've asked me a question, I wouldn't've lied" is Entrapment?


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Post by SoulBiter »

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+


So, "If you hadn't've asked me a question, I wouldn't've lied" is Entrapment?
Its a perjury trap. It's illegal. It is illegal because a prosecutor may be encouraged to lure into perjury persons suspected of wrongdoing who might otherwise escape prosecution due to lack of evidence.

Under the generally accepted view, the entrapment defense is
available when a law enforcement official originates the idea of the
crime and then induces the defendant, who was not otherwise so
disposed, to commit the offense.


The courts have already implicitly acknowledged that it is unfair, and hence impermissible, for a prosecutor to summon and question a witness solely for the purpose of procuring perjured testimony. They have also been many cases dismissed on the ground that the prosecutors prime purpose in questioning was to get them to testify falsely.

Once this memo was found where they were specifically looking to get him to perjur himself, it then falls under the law as a "Perjury Trap" and would get thrown out.
Last edited by SoulBiter on Mon May 11, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheFallen »

Wosbald wrote:So, "If you hadn't've asked me a question, I wouldn't've lied" is Entrapment?
:roll:

Wos, of course that's not what's being said as you well know. You're being deliberately disingenuous here.

Dragging someone in for questioning when there's no justification for doing so or evidence of any crime having been committed is a pure fishing expedition. i.e. an action geared to induce them to admit to something.

That's illegal and rightly so. Can you even imagine if it wasn't? The Feds would spend their whole time hauling in people for no reason at all, except solely the off-chance they'd manage to get those hauled in without justification to self-incriminate. That would be a Police State in spades...
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
TheFallen wrote:
Wosbald wrote:So, "If you hadn't've asked me a question, I wouldn't've lied" is Entrapment?
:roll:

Wos, of course that's not what's being said as you well know. You're being deliberately disingenuous here.

[...]
Something more along the lines of, "If there had never've been a DOJ, then I could've never had lied to it", then?


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Post by TheFallen »

I'm done with being baited, Wos. You've had your answer.

Support the methods of a Police State if you wish. You're entirely at liberty to do so... you have that right... pretty much precisely because you don't live in one.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

SoulBiter wrote:
Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+


So, "If you hadn't've asked me a question, I wouldn't've lied" is Entrapment?
Its a perjury trap. It's illegal. It is illegal because a prosecutor may be encouraged to lure into perjury persons suspected of wrongdoing who might otherwise escape prosecution due to lack of evidence.

Under the generally accepted view, the entrapment defense is
available when a law enforcement official originates the idea of the
crime and then induces the defendant, who was not otherwise so
disposed, to commit the offense.


The courts have already implicitly acknowledged that it is unfair, and hence impermissible, for a prosecutor to summon and question a witness solely for the purpose of procuring perjured testimony. They have also been many cases dismissed on the ground that the prosecutors prime purpose in questioning was to get them to testify falsely.

Once this memo was found where they were specifically looking to get him to perjur himself, it then falls under the law as a "Perjury Trap" and would get thrown out.
That summarizes the Flynn situation quite nicely.

The newly-released documents also show that no Obama Administration official had any credible evidence of any Trump/Russia connection, but the FBI via Peter Strzok simply had to find a way to attack Trump.

Strzok and the officials who permitted/allowed his fake investigation to continue should now, themselves, be the subjects of criminal investigations.
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Post by Skyweir »

And yet the man still declared his own guilt
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Skyweir wrote:And yet the man still declared his own guilt
I once watched a documentary about the psychological problem where people will, under the correct circumstances, admit guilt for things they did not do. If I put you in a holding cell then dragged you into an interrogation room long enough and apply enough psyhological pressure, I could probably get you to admit committing some crime...and FBI investigators are trained at doing exactly that.

Admission of guilt is now irrelevant--Flynn has been exonerated, in the literal sense of the word.

A new round of declassified document dumps will soon reveal the names of the Obama Administration officials who unmasked Flynn. The tide is turning. The real problems are going to start happening when these questions begin to be answered: what did Obama know? when did he know it? did he have a hand in authorizing the case against Flynn? There was a meeting on 5 Jan 2017 with Obama, Biden, national security advisor Susan Rice, James Comey, and Sally Yates (she was Deputy Attorney General) where they were discussing the Flynn case. Recall: Obama did not like Flynn and he was associated with the Trump Campaign, so they had an opportunity to try and cripple the upcoming Administration.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Does not matter in the least. Once busted in committing a "perjury trap", his declaration of guilt is as if it never happened, from a legal standpoint. Surely you have the same or similar laws in Aus?

Its the same if you illegally obtain evidence of guilt on someone. That evidence becomes inadmissible in court. Guilt or innocence becomes irrelevant in these situations.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
SoulBiter wrote:... Once busted in committing a "perjury trap" ...

[...]
So, does that mean you've given up the "Entrapment" angle?


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Post by SoulBiter »

Are you off your meds? :crazy:

A Perjury Trap is a form of entrapment.
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Post by Skyweir »

No its very different.

A perjury trap is not relevant .. Flynn wasnt coerced to lie .. he did that of his own volition. No one made him lie under oath. He did so under advisement of his counsel.

This is an issue for jurisprudence and the rightful seperation of powers.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Skyweir wrote:No its very different.

A perjury trap is not relevant .. Flynn wasnt coerced to lie .. he did that of his own volition. No one made him lie under oath. He did so under advisement of his counsel.

This is an issue for jurisprudence and the rightful seperation of powers.
Wrong. Very wrong. From the Department of Justice archives:
The perjury trap is a form of entrapment
Randall Eliason. He's now at George Washington University Law School.
So a perjury trap is a specific legal defense. Its actually related to entrapment, and its actually an accusation of prosecutorial misconduct.
And that is why the case is being dropped. He doesn't have to be coerced to lie to make what they did illegal. Once it was found that the entire reason for the meeting was to see if they could get him to lie and thus break the law, it becomes a perjury trap.
The courts have already implicitly acknowledged that it is unfair, and hence impermissible, for a prosecutor to summon and question a witness solely for the purpose of procuring perjured testimony.
Read that again. Its the law.
Last edited by SoulBiter on Tue May 12, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Skyweir wrote:A perjury trap is not relevant .. Flynn wasnt coerced to lie .. he did that of his own volition. No one made him lie under oath. He did so under advisement of his counsel.
Doesn't matter now--he has been exonerated.

The questions about who in the Obama Administration knew and who had a hand in directing/overseeing it remain to be answered.
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Post by Skyweir »

Ugh 🤦‍♀️

Ok fair cop ... sounds credible. My bad it seems.

Well that is shit then ...
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The laundry list of the people involved in unmasking Flynn reads like a Who's Who of the Obama Administration:

then-Vice President Joe Biden
then-FBI Director James Comey
then-CIA Director John Brennan
then-Director of National Intelligence James Clapper
Obama's then-chief of staff Denis McDonough
then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch

as well as others. Many unmasking requests are legitimate, but when they targeted Flynn they used him as a weapon against the nascent Trump Administration.
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