Did the Christian "Church" commit numerous atrocit

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

... And you [nor anyone] should force me [nor anyone] to believe it. ...

[Rawedge Rim]

Rawedge if I can just direct you upthread to that "wall of text" which pretty much covers off on how the NT came to be .. and it is exactly as V asserts in his post.

And honestly I think its pretty common knowledge and also accepted by the Catholic church itself .. again upthread youll find a LOL wiki source that Wayfriend posted setting that out for your convenience

And the Tridentine Council happened about 1500 years after Christ .. so if that is accurate .. theres that

Actually I didn't see in there where it stated that none of the New Testament books were written by eyewitness'. Now one may be able to argue the criteria on which books were decided to be "canon" and those which were included in the Apocrypha.

[Rawedge Rim]

I'm gonna have to just be blunt and say it is pure bovine excrement.

I include that under my statement that you are free to believe what you want.
But you shouldn't expect me to believe it. And you [nor anyone] should force me [nor anyone] to believe it. Especially when the history...in fact from eyewitnesses and evidence unlike your claim...supports certain things. And they're not your things.

Not asking you to believe in anything. What I'm commenting on and opining on is the assertion that

But the church killed and killed and killed and, whatever deluded/misdirected individuals may have wanted/intended [like "salvation"], power and control was its purpose---and the very DAY people start ceding issues BACK to them, power and control will reassert]

Deaths directly attributable to the Church number under 10,000 out of several centuries, and this includes the Inquisition. Hell the US government has more Native American blood on it's hands than that.

So again, I'm gonna call bullshit to this notion that the Church just existed for centuries so that it would have a reason to kill, and kill, and kill, and kill.

[Avatar]

Deaths directly attributable to the Church number under 10,000 out of several centuries, and this includes the Inquisition.

Sorry, haven't been following along much...seems a bit of a low-ball figure to me...

Maybe the issue is the definition of "directly."

--A

[Skyweir]

mmm.... indeed

Are you including the Spanish Inquisition? The Mexican Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition, the Goa Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition etc? The Crusades? The churches missionary efforts in Central & South America, not to mention forced conversions and the Churchs support of slavery, ? The Witch trials?

The violence in the Old Testament.. where genocide was mandated allegedly by deity ..

I mean .. Just War Theory .. is a philosophy that originated from Rome and the Catholic Church. The Church sanctioned the Holy Wars, institutionalised antisemitism,

After Constantine the Church changed from being the persecuted to being the persecutors.

[wayfriend]

Anyway, here's at least one nice list someone made.

You can go to the link and add up the numbers. It's orders of magnitude more than 10K. People don't really know all the things that were done. E.g. "Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded; Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany; Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered." And that's three line items out of hundreds.

[Fist and Faith]

I suspect the definitions of both "directly" and "the Church" are the issue.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

I suspect the definitions of both "directly" and "the Church" are the issue.

Depending on how one wants to crunch the numbers -- on just where one wants to cut the gordian knot -- the Church can be any witch or devil or monster of history that one wants.

The Church is the universal (i.e. "catholic" ) all-purpose whipping-boy.

Which is why I try not to wipe off the dirt. Rather, I revel in it.

Then again ...

... the Church can also be the universal good-ol'-boys club. The all-purpose triumphalistic club with which to bludgeon one's political enemies.

Which is why I try not to revel in the victories. Rather, I remain circumspect.

Taking both together, I say that ... "The Church may be a whore, but she's my Mother." (The Casta Meretrix thematic.)

All-of-the-above goes toward explaining why I would never start a thread like this from the get-go.

But whatcha gonna do, 'cept roll with it?

[wayfriend]

In the 11th century, kings were ordained by the Catholic church and were their appointed lieutenants. They were the Church. So how so not "direct"?

[Rawedge Rim]

In the 11th century, kings were ordained by the Catholic church and were their appointed lieutenants. They were the Church. So how so not "direct"?

and Henry the VIII told them to fuck off. The Church was a political animal for much of it's history, and if it wasn't expediant to order a monarch, then he wasn't ordered. Some wanted the Church's rubber stamp and sought the Churches approval for actions they already wanted to take.

[Rawedge Rim]

mmm.... indeed

Are you including the Spanish Inquisition? The Mexican Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition, the Goa Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition etc? The Crusades? The churches missionary efforts in Central & South America, not to mention forced conversions and the Churchs support of slavery, ? The Witch trials?

The violence in the Old Testament.. where genocide was mandated allegedly by deity ..

I mean .. Just War Theory .. is a philosophy that originated from Rome and the Catholic Church. The Church sanctioned the Holy Wars, institutionalised antisemitism,

After Constantine the Church changed from being the persecuted to being the persecutors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

The Spanish Inquistion was established in 1478 by the Spanish Monarchy in order to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms and to replace the Medieval Inquisition, which was under Papal control.

around 150,000 were prosecuted for various offenses during the three centuries of duration of the Spanish Inquisition, out of which between 3,000 and 5,000 were executed.

However, some historians have come to conclude that many of the charges levied against the Inquisition are exaggerated, and are a result of anti-Catholicism in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries of largely Protestant origin.

[Skyweir]

In the 11th century, kings were ordained by the Catholic church and were their appointed lieutenants. They were the Church. So how so not "direct"?

and Henry the VIII told them to fuck off. The Church was a political animal for much of it's history, and if it wasn't expediant to order a monarch, then he wasn't ordered. Some wanted the Church's rubber stamp and sought the Churches approval for actions they already wanted to take.

mmm .. Henry VIII was in the 16C .. and yes he did but that didnt end the violence and slaughter .. It was reigned down by both the Anglicans and the Catholics .. per anti anglican agenda and anti catholic agenda .. and depending on what side of that spectrum you fell .. didnt alter much the kind of torture and nature of your death .. they were all horrific .. horrific deaths and horrific tortures. Always made me extremely uncomfortable that such horrors were perpetrated by churches who claimed to embrace the gospel of Jesus .. you know the gospel of love, forgiveness and acceptance, patience and long suffering etc..

Such stark incongruence.

[Skyweir]

mmm.... indeed _

Are you including the Spanish Inquisition? The Mexican Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition, the Goa Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition etc? The Crusades? The churches missionary efforts in Central & South America, not to mention forced conversions and the Churchs support of slavery, ? The Witch trials?

The violence in the Old Testament.. where genocide was mandated allegedly by deity ..

I mean .. Just War Theory .. is a philosophy that originated from Rome and the Catholic Church. The Church sanctioned the Holy Wars, institutionalised antisemitism,

After Constantine the Church changed from being the persecuted to being the persecutors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

The Spanish Inquistion was established in 1478 by the Spanish Monarchy in order to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms and to replace the Medieval Inquisition, which was under Papal control.

around 150,000 were prosecuted for various offenses during the three centuries of duration of the Spanish Inquisition, out of which between 3,000 and 5,000 were executed.

However, some historians have come to conclude that many of the charges levied against the Inquisition are exaggerated, and are a result of anti-Catholicism in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries of largely Protestant origin.

There were numerous inquisitions .. and they were mandated under Just War Theory and were to "maintain" Catholic orthodoxy you are right.

But even modest estimates of deaths during that one inquisition number between 3000 and 5000. If you do a quick google on numbers of people executed for heresy in the middle ages is well into the millions.

Plus you have to consider all the inquisitions, the 30 years war, the Irish Rebellion etc.. the figure you nominated is not reflective or even close to the actual numbers of people executed.

[Rawedge Rim]

mmm.... indeed _

Are you including the Spanish Inquisition? The Mexican Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition, the Goa Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition etc? The Crusades? The churches missionary efforts in Central & South America, not to mention forced conversions and the Churchs support of slavery, ? The Witch trials?

The violence in the Old Testament.. where genocide was mandated allegedly by deity ..

I mean .. Just War Theory .. is a philosophy that originated from Rome and the Catholic Church. The Church sanctioned the Holy Wars, institutionalised antisemitism,

After Constantine the Church changed from being the persecuted to being the persecutors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

The Spanish Inquistion was established in 1478 by the Spanish Monarchy in order to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms and to replace the Medieval Inquisition, which was under Papal control.

around 150,000 were prosecuted for various offenses during the three centuries of duration of the Spanish Inquisition, out of which between 3,000 and 5,000 were executed.

However, some historians have come to conclude that many of the charges levied against the Inquisition are exaggerated, and are a result of anti-Catholicism in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries of largely Protestant origin.

There were numerous inquisitions .. and they were mandated under Just War Theory and were to "maintain" Catholic orthodoxy you are right.

But even modest estimates of deaths during that one inquisition number between 3000 and 5000. If you do a quick google on numbers of people executed for heresy in the middle ages is well into the millions.

Plus you have to consider all the inquisitions, the 30 years war, the Irish Rebellion etc.. the figure you nominated is not reflective or even close to the actual numbers of people executed.

Point is that when the Church was in charge of the inquistions, very few persons were executed or tortured. When the secular government prosecuted the inquistions, that number jumped hugely. And of course as the article stated, a lot of those numbers were inflated by anti-catholic groups and various protestant sects seeking to diminish Catholic influence.

[Vraith]

were inflated by anti-catholic groups and various protestant sects seeking to diminish Catholic influence.

What-the-fuck-ever. Protestants are power-seeking lying killers, too---and ALSO a church, and ALSO christians. And THAT---the Jesus in it---is what makes you want to dodge blame.
You probably want to dodge blame for slavery, [the U.S. version in particular] too.
And all the other behavioral crap they insist[ed] on that cause[d] death without ACTUALLY killing anyone PERSONALLY.
The churches were, and are, in fact, tyrannical and fakelogical. There is literally not ONE "good" thing they've done that could not have been done without them, and plenty of un-good they've caused, and a metric shit-ton per person they've allowed.
[[don't pull out the false chestnut of how they preserved ancient knowledge. What they did was confiscate it, isolate it, censor it, and FORBID it to almost everyone...except for light reading for themselves between hiring prostitutes/renting sex slaves/of all flavors from young boys to old ladies, and getting drunk with/laughing it up with genocidal dictators.]].

You may think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not.
You may also think that the churches in the dark-gray rainbow of christians aren't to blame for the actions of the followers---but you never give that benefit to Muslims.

[Rawedge Rim]

were inflated by anti-catholic groups and various protestant sects seeking to diminish Catholic influence.

What-the-fuck-ever. Protestants are power-seeking lying killers, too---and ALSO a church, and ALSO christians. And THAT---the Jesus in it---is what makes you want to dodge blame.
You probably want to dodge blame for slavery, [the U.S. version in particular] too.
And all the other behavioral crap they insist[ed] on that cause[d] death without ACTUALLY killing anyone PERSONALLY.
The churches were, and are, in fact, tyrannical and fakelogical. There is literally not ONE "good" thing they've done that could not have been done without them, and plenty of un-good they've caused, and a metric shit-ton per person they've allowed.
[[don't pull out the false chestnut of how they preserved ancient knowledge. What they did was confiscate it, isolate it, censor it, and FORBID it to almost everyone...except for light reading for themselves between hiring prostitutes/renting sex slaves/of all flavors from young boys to old ladies, and getting drunk with/laughing it up with genocidal dictators.]].

You may think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not.
You may also think that the churches in the dark-gray rainbow of christians aren't to blame for the actions of the followers---but you never give that benefit to Muslims.

anti-religion much?

[wayfriend]

I don't think any government prosecuting an Inquisition can be called "secular".

[Vraith]

anti-religion much?

That's kinda like saying because I'm anti-crime family, I'm anti-family.

I'm anti-authoritarian, anti-corruption, anti-knowledge suppressor, anti-False Idol/Ideology, anti-Churchist.

I have no use, personally, for religion---nor the Rotary, NASCAR, The Grateful Dead---but I don't mind if others do. I'm pretty sure plenty of folk have no use for postmodernism, live theater, or the Legion.

[Fist and Faith]

What kind of animal has no use for the Legion of Superheroes?!?

[wayfriend]

Find 'em and burn 'em!