Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 3 & 4

LFB, TIW, TPTP

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WELL, YES! :-x
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srtrout
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LOTR

Post by srtrout »

There's a lot of talk here about Lord of the Rings(LOTR). Certainly there are numerous comparisons or even "crossovers". Trees that are alive, evil powerful beings, armies of "orcs" or "demonspawn", a ring that is the ultimate power and cannot fall into the hands of evil.

One consideration: Wouldn't old Thomas Covenant, as an author in the second half of the twentieth century, have read LOTR? So, if he had, it wouldn't be suprising to find items from LOTR pop into his "dream".

Like many readers, as I first read the Chronicles, I tried to figure out if it truly was a dream or meant to be not a dream. The parts of LOTR that popped in didn't help this quest, as they could have either come from Covenant's memory or else SRD's. Like others writing here, I first thought perhaps he had stolen too much from Tolkien, but as I read it I too felt the sagas were vastly different. (Unlike others who seem to only have LOTR as an inspiration !)

One contrast is in the use of language. I believe Tolkien actually started with language, first inventing the language of the elves and eventually proceeding to the story. SRD does use a lot of "eldritch" language, but the story was always primary. Do you suppose he really knew all those weird words before he wrote the chronicles?

Srtrout (Go Twins!)(Do you think Bud Selig could play TC the unbeliever?)
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Post by danlo »

I think they make u swallow Thesaurases @ Kent State, and don't 4get he spent alot of his childhood in India (Go Angels!!)
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Post by Nerdanel »

I'd guess Thomas Covenant had never read Tolkien. If he had, he likely would have noted the similarity himself. Once again, the question pops up: in what genre did he write? The emphasis on imagination and new worlds hints at the fantastical, but it could be also for example science fiction or historical adventure. The most likely guess might be fantasy inspired by myths and pre-Tolkien authors. It could also be that little Tom had read Lord of the Rings as a kid and forgotten most of it, but had still it simmering in his subconsciousness.

I know some of Donaldson's strange words are not invented by him, but borrowed from Hebrew or Indian (in Asia) languages. I have no idea if this is true of all of the weird words, or if he made up some on his own.
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Post by Vain »

I can go with the "indelible imprinted ink" version insofar as Lord Foul is concerend but he carries the trait throughout - no matter who tells him. Especially the giantish songs and poems - hears them once then recites them years later.

I am unfortunately - or unfortunately - unable to draw comparisons with Tolkien as I haven't read LOTR et al. I figure I should do so at some stage :)
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Post by pitchwife »

I see that no one was excited by my idea, oh well.

I was thinking about Lord Foul, what is the source of his power, and what are his motivations? In the third chapter we learn very little about those. It seems to me that LF performs his evil deeds by using others: Drool, the Giant-ravers. Does LF's power ever materialize in the first chronicles?

Chapter three sheds very little light:
  • 1. About Foul's voice:
    It was deep and resonant,powerful enough to fill the air without effort, and somehow deadly...
    2.Foul is powerful enough to carry Covenant from the cavern to Kevin's watch.
    3. Foul claims to have powers to give Covenant health or strength.
    4. Foul about the RoD:
    He thought that such spells might unbind me. But the power that upholds me has stood since the creation of Time. ... Proud of his lore he did not know that the very Law which he served preserved me through that cataclysm
    5. After that Foul was "reduced for a time".
    6. On the other hand we learn that Foul has failed in the past:
    I will not fail again.
Donaldson is very vague about Foul's power and it's source. What is he actually capable of doing, what magic powers and what knowledge does he possess? We get a hint that he has knowledge since he teaches Drool the uses of the Staff of Law, but Foul does not attempt to use it himself, why?

The second question is what are Foul's motivations. Why does he want to warn the lords that Drool has the staff? how is that going to serve him? The only hint we receive about that is:
I have spent a thousand years gnawing my desires like a beaten cur. The price of that has yet to be paid - for it and other things I shall exact my due.
So is it revenge that is driving Foul?

-pitch
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Post by Earthblood »

Interesting pitchwife...

I think LF a the least has extreme powers of coersion(sp?) and manipulation. It is written throughout that he formed (deformed) the urviles & cavewights & other creatures, so it seems to me he has some powers of 'creation' also.

*spoiler* In TIW, Mhoram describes (to TC) the creator as 'brother' of LF and after realizing the evil that LF had placed in his creation trapped him in the land so he couldn't do further harm (don't have book in front of me).

Seems like a common approach to the old good :D v. evil :twisted: ...the evil didn't neccessarily start out as evil (LF, Sauron/Melkor(?), Satan...). They all started as second fiddles who got pissed when snubbed & took it to the bad end of the spectrum of 'helping' - You know - 'if you don't do it my way, I'll wreck yours!'

IMHO, of course 8) - Earthy
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Post by Foamfollower1013 »

I think LF wrote those instructions on TC's subconcious w/indelible ink.
Mm, I think you're right. That was always my explanation for Covenant's verbatim recital of LF's message.

As for him knowing Giantish songs after only one hearing...maybe he just has a really good memory? I don't know... :?

That's an interesting point srtrout brought up: Hasn't Covenant read LOTR? After all, he is a writer, and (as Orson Scott Card said at EnderCon), anyone who hasn't read LOTR isn't really educated anyway. :p(When he said that, everyone in the room started cheering, causing OSC to remark on the fact that his audience overlaps with Tolkien's. :lol: )

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response to Earthblood

Post by duchess of malfi »

Evil traditionally seems to work primarily through minions in many fantasy works. Sauron works through the Nazgul and orcs and trolls. The big bad meanie in Wheel of Time works through the Chosen and the Darkfriends. Lord Foul works through his Ravers and Drool and the urviles. And through the people that he "corrupts". They do his will and help him while thinking that they are following their own path and doing what is right. :( Evil is hard to understand most of us to understand. I can't understand the evil in our world, much less another creation. Look at the carnage in WW2 and elsewhere in the last century, all of the genocides, etc. Can anyone truly comprehend those events and the evil behind them? I suppose that some religious people would say that it was Satan or whatever evil force is recognized in their religion that was behind those horrid events. But even if some evil force was behind them, they were still carried out by men and women. Perhaps our evil one uses minnions, too?
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Post by Vain »

I always thought the Ravers were a power unto themselves. They would go along with Lord Foul's plans but had enough leeway to do their own thing and serve their own purposes.
Spoiler
One thing I hadn't noticed was that there are different Ravers

Ravers in Lord Foul's Bane
Sheol
Jehannum
Herem

Ravers in The Illearth War
Moksha
Turiya
Samadhi

I'll try and keep track of them this time around :)
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Post by Vain »

pitchwife wrote:Donaldson is very vague about Foul's power and it's source. What is he actually capable of doing, what magic powers and what knowledge does he possess? We get a hint that he has knowledge since he teaches Drool the uses of the Staff of Law, but Foul does not attempt to use it himself, why?

The second question is what are Foul's motivations. Why does he want to warn the lords that Drool has the staff? how is that going to serve him? The only hint we receive about that is:
I have spent a thousand years gnawing my desires like a beaten cur. The price of that has yet to be paid - for it and other things I shall exact my due.
So is it revenge that is driving Foul?

-pitch
I figure that LF doesn't interfere with Drool using the staff of Law as he (LF) is still too weak - the RoD must have severely depleted his resources.

As for warning the Lords about drool - it's really a Catch 22 situation. If they don't halt drool rockworms plans, then drool will rule and destroy the Land - possibly taking LF out as well. If they do halt him then LF will be able to recover sufficiently to let loose his own madness. Tough call.

So - perhaps it is initially self preservation that drives LF.
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Post by Guest »

Vain, you got it absolutely right! I would like to add that the ravers are probably the most nasty horrible creations in all of literature!
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Post by Earthblood »

Vain - in response to your spoiler Q about ravers
Spoiler
they all have several names, but there are only the 3
Samadhi=Sheol
Turiya=Jehannum
Moksha=Herem
Hope I did the spoiler thing right
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Post by danlo »

Vain, whatever Earthblood is saying in his spoiler is true + more!
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Post by MsMary »

danlo, I just wanted to comment on your comment:
I'm confused about Lena too, especially going up there so quickly, not only did she really not know what she would find but she stated that KW was avoided as a place of evil omen.
Lena did say that Kevin's Watch was avoided by her people as a place of ill omen, due to their memory that the last battle before the Desecration had taken place there. But she continues, in the next sentence,
But Atiaran my mother brought me here to teach me of the Land.
I took this to mean that considering Kevin's Watch a place of ill omen was a sort of superstition, not believed by more educated people...after all, Atiaran did attend the Loresraat, and knew more of the Lore of the Land than the average Stonedowner. Just my two cents worth on this topic.

What struck me (again!) throughout my reading of Chapters 3 & 4 was the shock TC must have felt at being suddenly transported to an alien landscape, first to a scene of horror, with Drool and Lord Foul, and then one of beauty, as he surveyed the Land from the heights of Kevin's Watch. No wonder he felt off-balance and was struggling for a way to make sense of it all, even to the extent of deciding that it must be a dream he was experiencing as a result of his accident.

And although it must have been clear, from his dress, that he was not of the Land, he was met with distrust by Atiaran, who seemed to think that he knew more of what was going on then he admitted. It is an impossible situation, in which Covenant was forced to try to reinvent himself by the moment, as each new aspect of the Land was revealed to him.

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Post by Guest »

I love the first post in this. can you kill the devil with an atomic bomb?? I don't hink that it would be possible, he's supposed to be an immortal spirit. I've always wondered what exactly Kevin was trying to accomplish by trying to do something very similar.
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Post by Vain »

danlo wrote:Vain, whatever Earthblood is saying in his spoiler is true + more!
Then I find this interesting :
Spoiler
Samadhi=Sanskrit for Self Collectedness
Sheol = Hebrew for Hell


Turiya=Sanskrit for Free of thoughts
Jehannum = Kipling's way of spelling the Hebrew Gehenna which means Hell

Moksha=Hindu for Enlightenment
Herem = Hebrew for Destruction
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Post by Earthblood »

Man Vain - where did you dig that info up? That is very interesting..
Spoiler
I did get the ravers mixed up tho -

I said:
Samadhi=Sheol
Turiya=Jehannum
Moksha=Herem

should be:
Samadhi=Sheol
Turiya=Herem
Moksha=Jehannum
Rave on!!!
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Vain, that is so cool! Where DID you dig up that info?! :D Ms. Mary, I like your post, too. I think that if something like that happened to me, I would think that I had completely lost it. No wonder he thinks he's in a weird dream. I would think that I was completely nuts! :? And, yes, maybe Lena wasn't as leary of Kevin's Watch as the other Stonedowners due her Mom. That makes quite a bit of sense. I also like that first post. How could you kill the devil with an a-bomb? And what exactly DID Kevin think that he was doing?? And I also would love more background on how LF became a Lord and served on the council beside Kevin. Did he manipulate him the whole time he was there so that Kevin came to to perform the ROD? Did he play constantly with Kevin's mind? Is his playing the possible reason why Kevin never married and left a son to be High Lord after him, like all of the other High Lords since Berek did?
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Post by duchess of malfi »

For some reason whenever I see LF I think that I'm on the Song of Ice and Fire Forum, and I think that someone is talking about Littlefinger. I makes me do a double take every time! Even when it's my post!
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