The Problem of Free Will and the Point of Prayer.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I'm not trying to insult those who believe, but I would love to understand the rationale behind why you believe. I truly would.

Thinking about this...
my first beginning to believe did involve experimenting with prayer.
I was someone who just grew up with atheist assumptions. I heard people talk about a god who loved us and about Jesus dying on the cross for humankind, and thought that would be awesome if it was true, but I was atheist, so it was probably not true.
Some of the things that happened when I prayed for things, and which I received as lessons, are probably not things I endorse as "a story to bolster someone's faith," but they seemed well-fitted to my child-mind. (I guess I was in the 11-15 age range.)

There was a situation involving a car wreck and some prayers and people turning out to be doing unlikely-well-and-uninjured beyond what was reasonably expected.
That - and the associated days and the atmosphere involved - was the event that turned me to believing, "There was probably a God who loved us."

And over the next few years, I started reading the Bible and discovered it to be very unlike how I had expected it... and in a few more years, there was also Christian community to testify as well.
And while that's a digression I love, it's a digression from peter's original thread-topic.

...Except insofar as we wonder about how important -who- (or what) a person is praying to is (or who or what a person thinks they are praying to).
(That's a question I think people are coming down on both sides about.)
But still, {what *I* was going to write} --> digression.

Speaking of peter- Thanks for sharing that story.
I think it woulda been awesome to hear that guy speak.

vraith... that last line of what you'd said called to mind a couple lines out of a song from a few years back:

It's crowded in worship today
As she slips in trying to fade into the faces
The girls teasing laughter is carrying farther than they know
Farther than they know...

...A traveler is far away from home
He sheds his coat and quietly sinks into the back row
The weight of their judgmental glances
Tells him that his chances are better out on the road.

[samrw3]

Stevie - I was raised by people who believed in God but came to my own beliefs as I was growing up. Yes a lot of what I believe deals with hope. Hope that God exists, hope that I am being the best I can be, hope that I am doing the best for other people, hope that there is some reason that I do not understand for all of the things that happen in the world.

I do not want to digress too far on how I came to my own beliefs but I will touch on it here lightly. I hope not to offend. This story will seem saccharine and silly. Maybe it is. I'm ok. I grew up with a extremely poor self image. I did not think I was worthy of love from anyone or anything. But some events unfolded [which I will definitely not get into here] that lead me to pray like I never prayed before. I felt what I will call Gods spirit fill me with a love I could not imagine and did not seem to come from within myself.

Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe it was jut me finally accepting myself. I cannot deny that is a possibility. But I choose to believe it was God's spirit. I determine as long as I do not hurt anyone with that belief it should be ok. Even lightly telling the story here I fear I have become too pushy and for that I am sorry. I have no intent of seeming pushy or corny or ill intended. But that is where I formed my beliefs and based on other events as well so how else to describe it?

So why would an event like this happen to me and not to 1000s of others that search? I really have no idea. I cannot pretend to understand it or explain it. But neither can I deny that this feeling is inside of me and has become a part of me.

Think of it as your love for your spouse or child or best friend or what have you. Other people can believe you do not have those feelings or the intensity of your feelings..but you know those feelings are a part of you inside of you. That is the best way for me to try and explain it.

[Vraith]

Tell us what you REALLY think, V


5) hope

On the first...heh...yea...probably sounded fired up and ranty. Sorry...I'm---with a few exceptions---almost never really fired up and ranting. I just have my ways [including but not limited to a foul mouth]---sometimes I consider adding [and actually once in a while do] emojis or something. But emojis mostly fail to solve the "problem," and I find them a bit silly/annoying quite often.

People must be mostly used to me by now, though---right???

On the second...
I think Hope is an ingredient in every believers recipe...it may be the meat, or maybe just a titch of rosemary....but it's there. And the loss/absence of it, I suspect, is one/a partial cause of a believer being/becoming a tyrant, fanatic or terrorist.
[[not that non-believers can't have hope, or become tyrants/fanatics/terrorists---it just seems a more necessary/required thing for a religious perspective/commitment]]

[wayfriend]

I see a sort of a hope/prayer synergy that creates a sort of self-sustaining reality. By which I mean:

In order to find hope where there is no hope we create a belief framework that consists of a redeeming God, and by choosing to believe in this framework we enable ourselves to find hope where there is no hope.

A logical analysis of this framework tells us that it does not exist, or that if it does exist we cannot expect redemption from it. (God won't reach his hand into our world to alter the course of things.) But our blind, instinctual, and most importantly: needy inclinations hold out for that hope. So we pray.

Notably, when we pray, we don't say, "God, I know you can't do anything to help me, or anyone else, but ..." We are always POSITIVE that God can make an exception in our case. And so we torment ourselves with notions of "worthiness". Heaven follows. Then Hell.

A myriad of touching accounts tells us that finding hope where there is no hope is good. It's life affirming. It changes outcomes by strengthening spirit. We can never logic it away, it produces results.

But you can get the same effect by believing in Superman. Or aliens in volcanoes. If that is just as effective ... isn't that just as good?

[Skyweir]

Fascinating exploration .. the role of the Hope void in the religious?

Not entirely sure about that but maybe it bears some thinking.

I used to be a religious fanatic of sorts .. but it wasnt a void of hope.. in fact the opposite is true. A desire to share what I believed gave hope to a world in need of it. So theres that.

But I guess if you feel your paradigm has shifted or more pertinently is challenged or threatened that can give rise to a surge of fanaticism and even violence. So theres that. And sometimes if one is motivated by a desire to crusade for god that can lead to a setting aside of what were previously deemed gods morality in favouring of death dealing and cruelty??? It has happened all too often.

But again Tis always the question of gods will .. what is it and who says what it is and why?

I think if having faith in god or the universe even is a comfort, a salve, is inspiring then have at it. I support you acquiring your bliss wherever you find it. I dont support a need to impose ones bliss on another though. And even the religious can appreciate the futility of such an endeavour.


Even my kids, who I raised in the Mormon church were enriched by some things but harmed by other things. If I knew then what I know now .. I wouldnt do that again. I would enable them to make their own path as adults and would give them a much broader spring board to launch themselves from, that includes all religious ideologies and world philosophies.

I would definitely provide them with a principled upbringing .. but non Christian yet ethically based principles that enabled their healthy sexual development .. instead of limiting, restricting or considering it dirty, unclean, unnatural etc. Mostly referring to guilt tactics etc that is imposed on sexuality, masturbation, marriage as the only vehicle for sexual expression etc.

Also see alcohol as perfectly acceptable in moderation, coffee is not actually of the devil etc.

Also I dont believe in hells other than those we make for ourselves. And of course the flip side is also true, or may well be.

I do not look to a life or a reward that is beyond this life or the reward that is freely available in this life .. for being a good and decent human. I also think love is real and incredibly powerful and IT IS LOVE that all religions tap into.

I dont need religion to feel and experience the power of love and belief in self.

This is my salve and my joy. I experience it through my family, my children but most importantly myself. I love loving, it has its own reward. I enjoy kindness, gentleness and helping others where I can. I feel energised by positivity... though freely admit I am affected by a void of positivity, harshness, nastiness and unkindness. But I am working on that.

I see value in self improvement.. but we dont all agree on what constitutes improvement do we. And thats cool .. its more about being true .. to ourselves, to others isnt it?

[Skyweir]

Oh Wayfriend I missed your excellent post

I agree from my perspective anyway, you can invest that same faith, energy into anything and receive the same results.

Indeed my Belgium friend believes she healed herself, with the assistance of other healers, remotely located from her geographic position. I hope she has. I truly does. That was not a Christian based faith .. it was her faith, and arguably the faith of those in her healing circle.

There are sooo many hard to explains .. are there not?

I think there is little more endearing than the Jesus persona. Depicted as a wonderful, living human, who valued and highly prized kindness, doing good, sharing resources with those in need of them, forgiving, etc.

Much less endearing are his examples claimed and organised by religion, the history, the corrupting of what were once pure examples of unconditional love and kindness.

[Fist and Faith]

Even lightly telling the story here I fear I have become too pushy and for that I am sorry.

Not even remotely pushy.

[Vraith]

but it wasnt a void of hope.. in fact the opposite is true. A desire to share what I believed gave hope to a world in need of it.

Hope was what you were offering? Are you sure? Or were you offering them rules and discipline and "Truth/Salvation"
Maybe you were...but such "offerings/sharings" I've seen haven't been hope...they've been the above. I don't think that's hope. I also don't think hope is tied to a balm, soothing, comfort, wishes, fantasies, magic, miracles.

I do think the synergy WF describes is a real thing...but that synergy can be used to drive the negative forms and functions of belief...and very often is.

And before we get TOO far into the total acceptance of "Power of Prayer,"
let's remember that nearly every 12-step program [even the ones that claim non-religious/non-spiritual/non-denominational] is, in fact, very spirit/prayer centered...
And these programs simply are not effective. Success rate is roughly identical to random chance and no treatment at all. [[a few larger and recent studies have shown they are WORSE than those---which means actively harmful]]
They are far less successful than several other treatments---AND YET, as far as I know [I haven't looked lately] a hundred or two THOUSAND people a year in U.S. are forced into them by courts/law.

[Brinn]

This has been a fascinating discussion. Very frank and eloquent, on all sides. Thanks for a great read!

[wayfriend]

Stephen Colbert has said/written a lot about his beliefs. (And if you don't credit his intelligence, you must credit his erudition.) I find it interesting, in that I ponder it off and on.

Anyway, he claims he prays because he wants to express his "gratitude". But that word is freighted with meaning for him. For example, the biggest spiritual lesson he had to learn was to be grateful for the tragedies in his life. He calls it "loving the bomb" I think. Trying to understand this is one of the things I ponder.

I feel certain that praying gratitude is related to the acquisition of hope. Obtusely, but nevertheless. Sort of in a greasing-the-skids kinda way. As if pouring on the thank-yous betters the odds of a future intervention down the road.

[peter]

I love Skyweir's positive thinking self affirmation idea - the idea that a lady could literally haul herself back out of lung cancer by the strength of her mental capabilities alone ....... but , alas as with all such unexpected medical turnarounds I'm more suspicious about the original diagnoses than convinced by the miracle. Medicine is way more more subject to diagnostic error than most people realise, even in the most routinely encountered of conditions.

I spoke to a lady at work about the problem posed by the question of the OP, and her answer was this, that over and above your prayers you must allow the world to unfold as it will - must allow for God's plan to unfold. That this unfolding may at times prove difficult to understand, does not make it for the worse, not does it mean either that the plan does not exist or that it is a bad one (this is I guess where faith must take over). I think Sam made something of a similar point some posts ago. In this framework, we address our prayers to our hope in respect of the shape of the divine plan perhaps.

The problem V refers to, why some people should be saved, some people forgiven, while others not, is further compounded when set up against the long held view of Christianity, though not perhaps so much now in fairness - but still taken nevertheless, directly from the Scriptures - that being saved or not is entirely at the discretion of God's Grace and was preordained for each of us before the universe was even created. In other words, good works on earth carry neither a jot nor tittles worth of weight in altering the situation. By this rationale Hitler could be luxuriating on a cloud idley plucking on his harp while St Augustine roasts his chestnuts down in the ninth circle. This is palpable bullshit and if the idea is indeed scriptural in origin it should provide sufficient evidence in anybody's books of the very human origins of the text.

(Quick apologies for not keeping up so well with these threads guys; the Brexit thing is sucking up my time {to what constructive end I'm sure I don't know} and consequently, when I do get back there is often to much advancement for me to do all the posts justice! )[/i]

[Vraith]

This has been a fascinating discussion. Very frank and eloquent, on all sides. Thanks for a great read!

Holy Crap! Brinn in the HOUSE!! Seems like it's been a couple years at least! [though my memory and time are not on speaking terms].

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, I was gonna say! Brinn!!!??!!!!

[Zarathustra]

I don't pray. It seems like the most futile thing a rational being could do, hoping that something is going to hear the quietest little cry for help you could possibly utter. I can't imagine anything making me feel more alone and hopeless. Prayer is the ultimate demonstration that reality does not conform to our desires merely by desiring. If wanting something were enough, if putting it into words and casting that want upon the void of the world's indifference were all it took to alter reality, our struggles and our efforts would be meaningless. Why struggle when all you have to do is want? I can't let myself be so naive and still feel true to myself. I can't face this world thinking that it owes me something, much less its attention, its audience, its caring. I can't turn myself into some character in a fairy tale and still feel wholly alive.

But that's just me.

[peter]

I don't pray. It seems like the most futile thing a rational being could do, hoping that something is going to hear the quietest little cry for help you could possibly utter. I can't imagine anything making me feel more alone and hopeless. Prayer is the ultimate demonstration that reality does not conform to our desires merely by desiring. If wanting something were enough, if putting it into words and casting that want upon the void of the world's indifference were all it took to alter reality, our struggles and our efforts would be meaningless. Why struggle when all you have to do is want? I can't let myself be so naive and still feel true to myself. I can't face this world thinking that it owes me something, much less its attention, its audience, its caring. I can't turn myself into some character in a fairy tale and still feel wholly alive.

But that's just me.

I'm amazed that you of all people are so closed to the idea Z. You have already had at least one encounter with an entity that was either angel, alien or imagined. Assuming it was not the product of your highly exited (young?) mind, then it was one of the other. If it was alien, it was of so far an advanced a type that it could just as easily fit into the angel category. Beings of this category are virtually indistinguishable from Gods anyway, so a little prayer might be worth a shot on the off chance........

Secondly the infinite universe possibility of quantum theory (if you accept that they all exist - Deutsch does) would have to include the universe where the ontological argument held water - and who could say that it isn't this one, or if not, then in contact with one where such messages might be heard and acted upon in ways we don't understand. After all - it seems that some prayers are indeed answered; perhaps this explains why it is only some......

On the whole there seems more rational arguments to indulge in a bit of prayer at need, not least because of the logic; if it doesn't work, then at least you reap the small reward of the comfort that thinking it might brings and nothing whatsoever is lost. If it works, then it works.

[Fist and Faith]

But that's just me.

Not just. I don't generally say anything, because I find it difficult to word it in a way that isn't insulting. And I have no desire or need to insult. You generally do a good job of it. It's a tough topic, though. I am my thoughts, feeling, and beliefs more than I am my height, weight, eye color, etc. Putting down or contradicting someone's worldview is putting down or contradicting the person. My worldview is me. Still, we should be able to discuss it.

Another reason I don't usually discuss it is because I've discussed it so damned many times!

[samrw3]

On the subject of why God would save certain people and not others....well in my mind that goes back to my first post in tis thread.

That we have gotten these ideas and frameworks from how humans have interpreted scriptural passages. The God I believe in is a lot more just and merciful then that.

I am not trying to knock someone who believes that some were saved even before world was created and/or certain practices or statements "guarantee" salvation. Just saying just because there is a whole line of religious thought that believes that way does not make it true or so that taints the viewpoints that the world hears about religious beliefs and practices.

My mind is pretty open on exactly how it all works out. Not sure if any of you have watched the Robin Williams movie "What Dreams May Come". It is extremely difficult movie to sit through - religious to its core and not too exciting [and very sappy ending]. However, one thing that resonated to me was its basic thesis. We as humans create out future destiny. Basically the woman placed herself in "hell" because she fell into despair and literally painted herself where no one could reach her [ok sappy ending says otherwise but anyways]. I think that is pretty close to what happens. We through our lives, actions and thoughts create a place where we will feel comfortable and God "allows" us to reside there.

Lets give a earth example...I could live in a monastery maybe two weeks tops. I would go crazy with boredom and need outside comforts and luxuries. So lets say heaven is like a monastery would it not be cruel for God to shove me in that monastery for all eternity? That would no longer be "heaven" for me. To me that makes no sense. I know some religions tend to direct us that way...which circle us back to humans eyes and definitions of Gods words.

sigh...ok here it is ...I cannot describe it well...because I have completely open mind about the end point and how to get there. But I personally do not take it literally all the doctrines/practices out there. Nor do I knock those who do. I have just decided to keep a open mind and to my hope and to doing as good as I can for myself and others...then hoping some more.

[Zarathustra]

Peter, I think that if such miracles were possible, they'd also be largely unnecessary. Whether it's aliens, angels, or gods, why would they wait until I asked for something in order to act in my best interest? If they can read my mind and love me enough to change their plans for that day to craft a miracle tailored just to my personal wishes, this already presupposes an unfathomable level of concern and agency that makes the idea of me asking seem the least necessary part of the whole process. God is not going to protect my son from a deadly car wreck unless I specifically ask him to watch over him on this particular trip? When I get to heaven (assuming I do), he's going to tell me, "Well, how was I supposed to know you didn't want your kid dying in a fiery wreck if you didn't ask me to intervene?" There's that omniscient thing that makes such miracles a bit redundant.

Same goes for cancer or any disease. Am I seriously supposed to ask God to suspend the laws of the universe which cause atoms to interact in certain ways that produce the very diseases we get, when God could have just not made the universe that way to begin with? Who am I to ask God to alter his creation to suit me? If he didn't want me to get cancer, he could have made me cancer-proof to begin with, or just never created cancer in the first place. If he can suspend his original design on a limited basis merely because we ask, then why make it this way at all? I think that asking for miracles implicitly requires that you're asking for God to change his mind, as if you know better than he does--and then believing that God will think you've made a good point! It's ridiculous.

I'm not sure what I saw as a kid, but if I have a guardian angel, I'm sure he has my back without me always begging for assistance. Why else would he be there?

Ironically, it seems that prayer represents a lack of faith in God, rather than the reverse. You don't trust him to do what is best without constantly nagging him? Really?

[peter]

Fair comments all round Z - and rather negates need for the pithy anecdote I'd come up with to support my 'logic' based argument in favour of prayer above.....

...... but hell - I'm going to tell it anyway just because I like it!

It's that old chestnut about Heisenberg [Bhor?] being asked why he, a rational physicist would have a horse-shoe nailed to the door of his office "Well", he said, "I'm told it works whether you believe in it or not!"



Sam, I saw that film and yes, agree with your 'open' approach to belief - very much!

But moving on a bit, I saw an episode of Dermot McCullough's History of Christianity series last night where he explained how the Methodist faith found new inspiration and evangelical vigour in espousing the doctrine/belief that it was the personal experience of God, of the Scripture, that was the important thing in Christianity; that this was the Good News that should be shouted from every hilltop and across every valley. Central to the message was the belief that faith was everything. If you would approach God, then it was by faith and faith alone that the communion would be achieved. This seemed on the first inspection problematic to me on the grounds that I have outlined above; How could good works, good intentions be so sidelined. This meant if Hitler had faith then he too could be accepted into God's fold irrespective of his despicable record. Where then was the onus to care - for charity in this. Why do acts of good or indeed strive to lead a 'good life' if salvation was achievable irrespective of this.
A moments thought however, I think, brought me to the heart of this. By separating out the good acts we might perform from holding of faith, the humanity we all should exhibit, believer or otherwise, onus is put firmly back into our court. And I think Jesus, with his Good Samaritan parable was effectively saying "Don't be good because I tell you to, because God tells you to, or to buy yourself a ticket into heaven. Do good because it's right to do so - because you want to." And I think his message that Charity will bring you closer to [....insert here...] is the really stong part of his teaching. But for that charity to have true value it also must be uncoerced, unconditional.

How does that sound?

[wayfriend]

No one petitions God because they think they are informing Him. They petition God to grovel. God won't intervene until you prostrate yourself enough.

As I said: worthiness. You plead your worthiness to God, and if you are found to be so, he answers your prayer. If he doesn't, well, that's on you.

If it sounds harsh, well, as I said, this is seeking hope where no hope can be found. You've tried the less harsh things already. Or there are none.

I have heard the "faith is everything" angle before. What follows is that practicing religion is the only way to attain faith. And that only through someone's ministry can you practice religion correctly. What it really adds up to is "submission is everything". I don't like it, and I don't believe it.