The Problem of Free Will and the Point of Prayer.

[Skyweir]

The placebo effect is proof that your mind can manipulate reality.

Which means reality is malleable.

--A

Funny yes but also actually fascinating.. and to my mind ... and gut .. the point ..

Darn gotta go

But will return

To comment on the power of the human mind and changing our reality. Cos simply fascinating

[wayfriend]

Mysticism. Once you add magic/miracles/mind-over-matter into your equation, the results are the infinite set.

[Skyweir]

What if you didnt ADD magic and miracles .. what if the power is already within each and every human to change everything and almost anything.

Throughout history there have been humans with exceptional intellect, manifested incredible physical feats, climbing my Everest, reaching the stars, swimming channels, influencing others minds .. if you tally up some of the most phenomenal human feats, you see them as the power of the individual.

Or in some cases the power of a collective ..

So what?

Humans are limited by what they choose to believe and empower.

Weve all done some really crazy out there shit .. yeah? Ran marathons, covered incredible distances on foot, lifted incredible weights, broken world records etc..

What distinguishes those that do from those that dont? The human mind. I will preempt some push back to this .. by saying that of course for feats requiring physical prowess .. require physical capability. There have been numerous amazing achievements by the physically less capable and the physically challenged.

Even despite obvious physical impediments and disadvantages humans have still attained incredible feats.

What binds all these experiences? The human mind .. belief in oneself, that X or Y can be done. And from that belief arises incentive, motivation and drive to maintain momentum to cross the finish line.

Look at the incredible works of art, ancient engineering let alone what humans have achieved today.

Some may well be driven by a god faith paradigm .. some not .. but the point is THE POWER OF BELIEF. In oneself, in a god paradigm ... whatever floats yer boat .. it really doesnt matter .. and believing in gods, devils, the universe, wicca.. its all the same .. I know some with religious sensibilities may balk at this .. but I think we can manifest positive energy via whatever focus we choose. And thats what religion is a focal point .. a magnifying glass .. something to concentrate your love, your energy, your future, your vitality in and through.

Humans are constantly changing their reality .. changing adapting .. moving from one constant to another .. to a revolving door of adaptive renewal.

Realities are intrinsically connected to perception.. some hold fast to certain ways of behaviour, belief etc and such lives enjoy a more static existence .. others who allow themselves permission to embrace change and challenge enjoy greater change and attainments.

But the power IS within .. within each human and its given momentum through the choices we make .. some would say through our intent.

[Lazy Luke]

Through our intent?

We are the higher power, we control our lives. Rejoice in yourself (that's what I say!).

I like this idea of a higher power.

All this business about God's plan seems to me like an attempt to justify the construct that people thousands of years ago created.

Its so in tune with the words Jesus spoke: Eat this bread, it is my body, et cetera.
Simple and to the point, I'd say.

[peter]

It sounds Sky, like maybe your belief has been battered out of you (somewhat the position of John Humphreys who as a field reporter, witnessed the worst war/famine/crime/etc atrocities the world could throw up). Not in any way to diminish such experience or label it irrelevant - but simply to ask, is the effect of long term experience of the worst of humanity - which as a member of the police service must have been your bread and butter to a degree - the best place to start an exploration of your belief from? I'm thinking that in many cases, such experience could only skew the arguments you put to yourself. I'm wondering if 'a clean sheet' that accounts for the existence of evil - but is not colored by it, is not more likely to yeild a (personally) satisfactory result?

[Skyweir]

Despite the many great ills in life, my policing was not the catalyst for my setting aside my faith in my religion and my faith in a god.

Ive seen some of the worst and some of the best of humanity thats true. But I walked away from my faith only a few years ago when I discovered there was no truth in it.

[peter]

Fair comment Sky; I haven't got to that place (yet?) and must admit I can't quite see how it could be reached, but I can't deny you if you say that for you it is so. It's such a personal exploration that anything can go really.



A little more on Humphrey's take; today I listened to a piece where he observed the slight feeling of superiority with which atheists often seem to view their own position compared to that of believers. He said that was fine as long as it didn't move over into contempt for the other, but alas he said, as in the case of Dawkins and his ilk it often seemed to. He also mentioned a letter that he had received from one wise listener to his radio series on the subject of his (failed) attempts to find faith who had said that as he had done the groundwork (to no avail) he should give up and stop worrying about it. God, the man said, would do the rest if or when He chose. It seems that sometimes it is just necessary to accept that communion with God is always going to be a one way affair. As one hard headed thinker had put it, if you talk to God then you are praying: if he talks to you then you are schizophrenic.

[Vraith]

As Z said, it doesn't work for people who think it doesn't work.

They might go through lots of therapy, and get to the point where they can see a spider and not run out of the room screaming.

I have a couple replies/thoughts to z's last...hope I remember when I have time to get back to it [[and if I haven't exceeded the depth of my own interest]]...

But...on the first above---I said...and it's been done...that these things can and do work without belief in them, and even with full knowledge that they aren't real.
Aggressive/absolute denial/opposition would probably make that less likely [might even make whatever you had worse, I suppose, if ones attitude/perspective was strong enough as you both seem to suggest---but that's the counter-example that proves the point...your mind is altering the outcome. But wouldn't that suggest one might want to manage their perspective? Like---in other situations---zero-tolerance policies/punishments nearly always have precisely the opposite, and bad, results the zero-tolerators supposedly want. So, if one wants a better outcome, one should overcome/eliminate ones zero-tolerance perspective.]

On the second---funny thing/coincidence aside---about a year or two ago [maybe a little more?] I ran across a blurb...someone had instantly reduced, nearly cured, arachnophobia with a two-minute treatment and a single dose of a beta-blocker called propranalol. And unlike the much longer, harder, less successful, more expensive and usually temporary treatments, the effect lasted at least a year. Supposedly further research was funded and about to begin...haven't heard an update...but haven't been looking. Maybe I will.

[Skyweir]

Fair comment Sky; I haven't got to that place (yet?) and must admit I can't quite see how it could be reached, but I can't deny you if you say that for you it is so. It's such a personal exploration that anything can go really

Let me make it easier for you. I joined the Mormon church when I was 15/16yo. At the time Id lost my best friend to hit and run. And I was in a dark place. My parents werent ideal, whos are? They, particularly my step father was violent, abusive and manipulative. So not a lot of intellectual or emotional support at home and definitely not spiritual.

I seized onto the teachings as a salve and a salvation from all the shit as a young person, my world was. Mormonism is also family centric paradigm, holding up as a light the ideal to pursuit and attain. These were great things and things I had little experience with. I absorbed church teachings and doctrine like a thirsty sponge. I couldnt wait to serve a full time mission myself. My parents threw me out of home when I was baptised . Threw the few things I owned to the street .. I was literally expelled from my family home. Not because my parents were church goers, just because. I was basically homeless ..

I worked in a factory and on a building site to save money to support myself on a full time mission, and Id finally raised enough money .. as its not particularly cheap and especially not for me, who had pretty much nothing.

Before my mission my parents agreed I could return home. I saw this as a sign from god that hed softened their hearts. But it did not last. Things pretty much returned to their miserable condition in no time at all. I served half a dozen mini missions in my local area. Then I turned 21 and I was off to New Zealand to spread the good news of the restored gospel. I loved my mission and I loved the service. Throughout my membership in the church service was my world. The joy of helping others was what I lived for. I loved it. I still experience that same joy in kindness, service and helping and caring for others.

On my return my parents made it crystal clear they wanted nothing to do with me. Life was hard for me as I adjusted back to normal life .. and as a 23yo I was unsure what to do. I got a few odd jobs and decided to recruit with our state police. I did this so my dad would be proud of me... but he approved of nothing I did .. so I dunno why I navigated my life to secure his acceptance. Before he died, he did actually tell me he loved me, and felt bad for being an ass most of my life.

I held lay callings in the church ... teaching mostly in a range of different voluntary positions in the church. In the last few years of my membership of nearly 35 years I taught early morning seminary with my husband and we ran a breakfast club. My kids were in our classes over the years we did this. In teaching church history and doctrine, I would research for lessons quite broadly to make the lessons more interesting for the youth. Certain things in church history seemed strange and re somethings incomplete. The kids are great, they ask the very things I myself too saw as odd. But I would look up issues so I had answers for them.

Id make excuses like any good apologist would. Even though my gut indicated to me that things werent quite kosher. I loved everything about the church but somethings were not right, could not be right.

I dug into some case histories, and judicial rulings re Hisroh Smith, the founder of the religion. I discovered that he was found guilty of fraud on more than one occasion and read the court transcripts. I discovered he was not the great leader the church teaches he was. That he had intimate relations with a young girl, in his marital home while being married to another woman.. Emma Smith. Then he had other relations with other women, in secret and then married them in secret and unbeknown to his wife, Emma. Later, to cover up his polygammy, he married them again, with Emmas full knowledge.

I learned that he wed an est 40 women, some of them legally married to other men. He would send the husband off on a mission and claim their wives. That led to more discoveries, that the Book of Mormon is also a fraud. I further discovered that there is no genetic evidence of indigenous American or Latin American peoples having originated from the east .. let alone Israel or the Jews.

I started looking into the Christ mythology and found no external evidence of the birth of Jesus, no evidence of his existence outside the Bible at all. Then I slowly started putting the fragments of the reality puzzle .. I had been working on.

I realised that Mormonism is a cult, that the religion is fatally flawed in all its claims. It was then I started to be aware of the conditioning, the use of guilt asa common tool, the requirement not to question but be believing, to not use external sources not approved by the church, not even well regarded academic sources etc. I could live with all this, and simply set reason aside, and I did for several years in fact.

I started to see issues with the churches messaging, its political influence, its anti LGBT narrative. One conference in 2015, the church released a policy I saw as entirely toxic ... on children of same sex couples. It followed on the heels of the assertion of marriage equality in the US. The church had invested time, money and resources in defeating Prop 8. It was like sour grapes.

That weekend both I and my husband wrote our letters of resignation. We were what we call temple worthy, sealed partners and we just looked at each other and realised the church was not worth our wilful blindness.

[peter]

A telling story Sky. It is I think inevitable that the deeper one 'sinks' oneself into any given belief, the more violent the reaction can be against it when it begins to fall short. There is no anti-smoker worse than an ex smoker! By any stretch Mormonism can not be seen as a 'mainstream' denomination - the polygamy and golden tablets (or whatever they were) would rule that out in any consideration (the play The Book of Mormon pokes fun at the origin of the Church in the gentlest of ways) - but even these can be problematic under the microscope of close investigation.

I've never been a fan of organised religion; I don't come from a religious background as such - my parents (or mother at least) might have gone to church very rarely when I was young (I only remember going once). I went to a Sunday school with a man who worked for my father (such was the innocence of those days), but there are no horror stories there; in fact he turned out to be one of the most genuine people I've ever met and we remained friends until his dying day. Even so my boarding school religious practice (two services every Sunday) was cursory; more to do with messing about the back less than recieving any instruction. I 'skived' church as much as possible and when I left boarding school I never went back. No - my 'religion' is of the entirety personal kind. I tweak it as I choose to fit my needs: some days it is strong, some virtually non existent. It requires little maintenance and never lets me down or causes me to question it. It is mine and mine alone and it lives or died on my shoulders. The story of Christ (his existence is I think historically cross-referencable) is another thing that I don't have any problems with. The miracles I don't have much thought for; the teaching is what is important I believe. Jesus seemed to be a good man in a pretty dark time and paid a heavy price for it. If I warrant the name of being a Christian, then it is on the basis of trying to practice Christ's teaching in my everyday life, not on my belief or otherwise in the miracles. These were - or they weren't. It doesn't matter to me. (The inconsistency of my position will be showing itself glaringly by now; my thoughts on our relationship with God, and my thoughts on the business of Christ are really two separate subjects. I concede this).

No, nothing has ever happened in my life to either draw me into belief - or to renounce it and this casual place is exactly where I like it.......

So why then do I search?

Ha! Now there's the question!



(Dare I ask it Sky {to return to the above point} - is it possible that from your experience you have actually learned more about yourself and organised religion than about the truth or otherwise of faith. )

[Skyweir]

I would say both Pete .. indeed all of the following, about organised religion, cult worship, myself and god and gods.



Id characterise myself agnostic .. open to being wrong about everything.. yet of the mind that it is probably unlikely that there is a god above .. that human existence is part of a divine plan, and that there are indeed eternal rewards and a heaven that waits to welcome the dead.

[Fist and Faith]

But...on the first above---I said...and it's been done...that these things can and do work without belief in them, and even with full knowledge that they aren't real.

To be more precise, you said:

...placebos sometimes work EVEN WHEN people KNOW they are placebos.

Sometimes is hardly a ringing endorsement. And what percentage works for which ailments? Are we talking about getting rid of headaches, or cancer?

Aggressive/absolute denial/opposition would probably make thuat less likely [might even make whatever you had worse, I suppose, if ones attitude/perspective was strong enough as you both seem to suggest---but that's the counter-example that proves the point...

That's not a counter-example that proves the point. At this point, it's just speculation.

your mind is altering the outcome. But wouldn't that suggest one might want to manage their perspective?

Yup. I agree. I think it's worth trying as much as your able. I just don't think it's a dick move if someone does not have the psyche, or worldview, to try. You're talking about asking someone to try something that is by no means guaranteed to have any effect at all when they don't have the kind of mind that can go there.

[Vraith]

That's not a counter-example that proves the point. At this point, it's just speculation.

Well, yea...but it would be if it were shown. But really, it was taking at face value that whichever one of you who said "If I did that, I'd make myself SICKER" was correct.

And "sometimes" IS a thing....when it's a sometime that is measurably, consistently, more times than random chance...
And ALL treatments of ALL illnesses [[and pretty much all actions taken related to all things]] only work "sometimes."
[[For example, the very best preventatives for heart attacks, in actuality, only prevent ONE heart attack for every 400 or so people taking the meds...and some of them don't even do that---they've never been shown to prevent any heart attacks...ZERO proven effect with literally millions of patients, and many, many billions of dollars spent on those pills
....
....
...And lets not even talk about Keto, Atkins, Weight Watchers and every single other diet plan.]]

[peter]

Would it be appropriate at this point to wish everybody "Happy Christmas"?

[Skyweir]

Always appreciated Pete .. happy Boxing Day

[Linna Heartbooger]

I spoke to a lady at work about the problem posed by the question of the OP, and her answer was this, that over and above your prayers you must allow the world to unfold as it will - must allow for God's plan to unfold. That this unfolding may at times prove difficult to understand, does not make it for the worse, nor does it mean either that the plan does not exist or that it is a bad one (this is I guess where faith must take over). I think Sam made something of a similar point some posts ago. In this framework, we address our prayers to our hope in respect of the shape of the divine plan perhaps.

peter, thanks for sharing this.

I know of a good sermon that wrestles with the question of the OP.
A New Beginning: A New Fight*
It's a really beautiful sermon containing unexpected ideas and has a strong logical flow.

Here is a quote from it I typed up to share:

When God has a design of bestowing blessing on persons in answer to prayer,
He stirs them up to be earnest in seeking,
and oftentimes for a while, He seems not to hear or regard their request,
but on the contrary seems to oppose and resist them,
as the angel seems to strive against Jacob in the wrestling,
which is for the trial of the person's resolution, constancy and perseverance
in the seeking of the blessing.

...and then the pastor explained that^ 18th-century theologian's quote by saying that those trials which require such persistence... (i.e. God appearing to not listen or be influenced by ones prayer for A Long Time)
...are making the praying person into a fit vessel to receive the blessing.
(To go down a step... who is fit to win the lottery? How often it goes awry! and how horribly! and how bitter are the recipients when all the cash has been blown!)

This appeals to me greatly, especially if I make an argument involving God's desire to grow humans' love.

So, for wayfriend's list... I can't remember if anyone's mentioned "Personal Transformation" yet... or something like it.

Anyway, he [Stephen Colbert] claims he prays because he wants to express his "gratitude". But that word is freighted with meaning for him. For example, the biggest spiritual lesson he had to learn was to be grateful for the tragedies in his life. He calls it "loving the bomb" I think. Trying to understand this is one of the things I ponder.

I feel certain that praying gratitude is related to the acquisition of hope. Obtusely, but nevertheless. Sort of in a greasing-the-skids kinda way. As if pouring on the thank-yous betters the odds of a future intervention down the road.

Wayfriend, you saying this made me think of.. not a connection between gratitude and hope, but a connection between suffering and hope.
So here's this from Romans, in the New Testament:

...Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

* The sermon above is about that bizarre scene in Genesis 32 where Jacob wrestles with God - or with an Angel of God - to secure a blessing.
And - before that - about Jacob's plan to make peace with the twin brother he'd deeply wronged.

[Skyweir]

Yeah ... or how about not

I say this truly loving you Linna .. humans dont need god to suffer, experience, learn or grow and more importantly love.

Love is not a monopoly of the religious. And its no small arrogance to think it is. Of course that narrative is tightly woven into your fabric of faith and doctrinal understanding.

Humans are capable of growing, nurturing and feeding love without a belief and or fealty in a divine being. If not this would not be an element capable of manipulation and exploitation.

Ive personally lived a religion, 24/7, and believed everything you described above .. and now I do not .. has my world, my existence changed, been made deficient in some way? Not one iota.

I still feel the power of being, I still exercise all those things, principles I highly regard .. ie helping others where I can, exercising kindness, being generous with my love, and my joy in this life is full to overflowing. And all without divine oversight, guidance and or limitation.

[peter]

Hi Linna!

Happy New Year to you!

Another question this raises for me is "what about the ones who are at the end of their capacity for endurance?" Surely this is the point at which most people actually reach for prayer, the point where their capacity for endurance is a rope already played out to the extent of it's line. These ones haven't the luxury of waiting to be made ready, and the long list of tragic ends tells us that in these cases their desperate pleas went unheard. We must look for an answer to this elsewhere, I'm thinking.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I say this truly loving you Linna...

Thank you.
Isn't it weird how when people disagree with each-other, they feel the other is against them?
And I get that way too, so this is a good reminder for me.
Anyway, we're not supposed to be all the same person with the same thoughts, right?

So, I think this one is best begun through communicating just with you.
Other people can wonder about what we say in our emails (hah, or nobody cares!) but I think it would be great to carry on some of this dialog without observers.

Another question this raises for me is "what about the ones who are at the end of their capacity for endurance?" Surely this is the point at which most people actually reach for prayer, the point where their capacity for endurance is a rope already played out to the extent of it's line. These ones haven't the luxury of waiting to be made ready, and the long list of tragic ends tells us that in these cases their desperate pleas went unheard...

This calls to mind the image of a man whose cloak was taken as a security for a debt he couldn't pay, and who has nothing warm to put around his body, but he lies down shivering on a cold night, crying out to God as he tries unsuccessfully to sleep.

It calls to mind Solomon thinking about "all that is done under the sun, when man had power over man to his hurt."

Not having the luxury of time... yeah, that appears to be problem, and if it is, it really needs an answer.
It's a thing I have scraps of thoughts of answers to, though, and maybe also a story.
What do you think?

Happy New Year to you!

Happy New Year back 'atcha!

Edit: added New Years' greeting!

[peter]

I was made aware today of the problem of intervention in the following way; Just where, exactly, would we have God intervene? Would we, for example say that he should prevent the massive disasters - the tsunamis and earthquakes - but then stop short of everything else. Or would we draw the line at a lower level - the school shootings and other tragedies for example - but draw the line at say preventing people dying of cancer. Pretty soon we'd have God stopping me from cutting my finger in the kitchen chopping potatoes and the world would not be as it is at all. Instead we'd live in a place somewhat like that picture on the front of The Watchtower magazine where the lion lies down with the lamb - and nice though that might look in the picture form, I'm not sure I'd want to live there. It matters not where you choose to draw the line on God's remit for intervention, the moral dilemma that those on opposite sides of the line are being treated differently still exists. It's food for thought in respect of what we might expect from a loving God if we wish to retain even a thread of freedom in our being.