The Problem of Free Will and the Point of Prayer.

[peter]

Here's the quandary in a nutshell.

Why does a beneficent God allow terrible acts of evil to occur in our world. Because he has set us free to pursue our own course through life, free of coercion. This because he loves us. If he were to intercede every time one of his Children were to suffer, there would be no free will and we would be mere puppets to his will. If this is the case, that God will not intercede, then what purpose prayer? If God will not reach in to steer the course of events, then time spent in prayer becomes time wasted (unless it is spent lavishing Praise and Gratitude, and if that was all he required, what would that say about God?)

Or are we to have it that God will intervene - if he so chooses. So two women standing outside a school seige, both praying for their children inside. One child he will reach in and shelter, the other he will stick to the 'free will' rule and allow to perish. This cannot be so. Again, we create an argument that does God injustice. Perhaps our rewards post death are so, so great, that our suffering here is as a trifle to be ignored, like that of a baby in a pram wailing because it is denied a sweetmeat by it's still caring mother. Well - maybe, but it's cold comfort.

Somewhere our understanding (my understanding) is flawed. Any thoughts on navigation of these questions. Perhaps it is a false path to even question such things; perhaps it is the case that God's ways are beyond question and answer.

I think I'll just keep praying.

[Vraith]

This is a big blah that is insoluble as a social/human issue [so far]
The problem is that every possible human fact about god is, if god exists, in fact, false/unknowable.
God loves us? Really? Who knows that? How? [[they don't...they literally can't in any demonstrable way]].
If S/he/it DOES, why does "free will" necessitate allowing terrible shit? [[It might..but there is no good reason...none--all the proposed reasons are weasel shit---why that is true...and no one can KNOW, literally.]]

BUT...
AS LONG AS
Praying makes you feel better/be good/do good
and doesn't make you do the opposite to anyone...

Keep praying...
Placebo is as good as medicine sometimes....
PlaceGod should work, too.
[[as long as you remember that arsenic isn't a placebo, it's poison...
The Christian FAITH [among others] MAY be a placebo...but the bible [and similar] are full of fucking poisons and deadly viruses.

[peter]

That God is incomprehensible and any effort to understand It's ways is wasted almost goes without saying - one reason for posting the above was to illustrate this point; that if you are going to accept the biblical definition of God you are going to have to accept these irreconcilable paradoxes whether you like it or not. Either that or you are going to have to restructure your definition in order to eliminate the problem. I think you can but bring such atrocities firmly back into the sphere of mankind [ie beyond even God's power to prevent] in order to begin to rationalise the problem. ie An acceptance that our idea of God's omnipotence is flawed.

But prayer, when we find ourselves in terrible circumstances can act as a salve; saying "Thankyou" when things resolve, or just because you want to express gratitude for the gift of Being can feel like a justifiable acknowledgement - and so the practice has value enough in and of itself to be worth pursuing. Christianity for me is way more about following the teachings of Christ than about belief in God; I think it was so for Jesus as well, or what was the parable of the Good Samaritan about? The Bible, I have time for as a source of wisdom, a source of history, a source of literature - but palpably not as a source of divine revelation [if by that one means it was divinely inspired in the traditionally understood sense - in a looser one, perhaps you could argue].

This all makes any faith I have a bit parasitic; more than a bit selfish I think. I twist and bend it to serve me rather than serving it. Well, what can I say - I'm human.[/i]

[StevieG]

They are good questions peter.

I don't mean offence - but I'd like to give my opinion:

If God will not interfere, why pray, if not purely for your own comfort? Why worship? But hang on, then there's "miracles" - that's where God does intervene? Why would God do that in certain circumstances, and not in other - equally critical - circumstances? Is one person more deserving of a miracle? Is God teaching the other person (the non miracle recipient) a lesson because of some arbitrary or defined reason? Why thank God if your prayers are theoretically answered? He/She didn't intervene (unless it was a miracle), so there's no reason to thank Him/Her. If your prayers were "answered" in some way, it must be purely chance, or your own doing - because God doesn't intervene.

As V says, if praying comforts you, makes you a better person, helps you in any way - and you like to do it - then go for it. For me, it makes no logical sense. I think you illustrated that in your original post very well, until you said that "perhaps it is the case that God's ways are beyond question and answer". Surely not! Surely this needs to be questioned? Why would God, a benevolent God, want to make us suffer in this life, just so we value the afterlife? To me, it's just absurd.

I'm not trying to insult those who believe, but I would love to understand the rationale behind why you believe. I truly would.

Tim Minchin sums it up for me:

And if anyone can show me one example
In the history of the world
Of a single spiritual or religious person
Who has been able to prove
Either logically or empirically
The existence of a higher power
That has any consciousness or interest in the human race
Or ability to punish or reward humans for their moral choices
Or that there is any reason other than fear
To believe in any version
Of an afterlife

I will give you my piano
One of my legs
And my wife

[Skyweir]

Brilliant post StevieG and brilliant points. I have to shoot through atm but will return tomorrow to add my thoughts . But from my perspective youve nailed the most pertinent issues.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Where does it say in the bible that there is "free will" anyway?

[Fist and Faith]

I don't think "rationale" is it. I don't personally know anybody who arrived at their religious beliefs because of any logical, thought processes. Go back and read everything Furls wrote here. It's all a feeling, a knowing.

[Vraith]

Where does it say in the bible that there is "free will" anyway?

don't be dumb on purpose,
It's inseparable.
Accept jesus or not means go to heaven or not.
If you can't CHOOSE, everything else is meaningless.
[[but FWIW, some sects have said exactly that. You don't get to choose, nothing you do or say or claim---even Savior Acceptance---changes anything. You are doomed or saved before you exist. And I totally agree that the biblical god's existence means you're blessed or doomed before you even exist and ain't shit you can do about it...you can't be a saint or a genocidal maniac...those are just people terms of some protoplasmic robots doing what they were programmed to do/say about other protoplasmic robots, and it has no effect whatsoever on whether you go to heaven or hell.]]

StevieG...ee c. said something related, from a different angle, more twisted...

when any mortal [even the most odd]
can justify the ways of man to God

i'll thing it strange that normal mortals can

not justify the ways of God to man

which connects and makes me say to peter...
It goes without saying that god is incomprehensible?
The FUCK it does.
An incomprehensible god is a lot of possible things...
but NO version that knows what we're gonna a do before we do it, NO version that makes ANY demands, obedience, or judgement on us is "good" in any sensible sense whatsoever.
Every version that does any of those things [and many others] is a blood-soaked tyrant.
such a being doesn't save us by sacrificing a son...
instead, such a being should sacrifice itself a thousand painful deaths for every human death to persuade us to forgive ITS sins against US.

[Skyweir]

I don't think "rationale" is it. I don't personally know anybody who arrived at their religious beliefs because of any logical, thought processes. Go back and read everything Furls wrote here. It's all a feeling, a knowing.

A feeling is one thing, its an emotive, a knowing however, is another thing altogether... as it denotes knowledge, intelligent assessment, and arguably reason.

mmm... I absolutely loved and adored Furls and we were very close .. but just because someone I love with my whole heart believes in something I no longer can, doesnt make even the purest of faiths true. Furls was one who had the very purest of faith and she was a woman of action, she put her faith to work. And she was one of the most true and loving humans I have to this day ever met.

At some point when the inconsistencies, the things that just dont add up become a clarion call for explanation .. one makes the attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable. It is a great grief that follows as one realises truth and reason is the very thing that is missing.

You dont really have to make a comprehensive assessment of the Bible to identify the flaws, the retrospective engineering or even the underpinning agendas.

Of course there should be truth in faith, of course there should be rationale, reason and meaning. Otherwise its an empty vessel. And to be fair and reasonable, it claims to be truth, so therefore it should be able to withstand scrutiny.

StevieG has identified just a few very obvious inconsistencies.. such that make rational thought a stranger to religion. Not because there should NOT be rational thought IN religion cos its all about the feels .. but that its stark absense is its undoing.

[StevieG]

I like that ee cummings passage - hits the nail on the head doesn't it!

I also loved Furls - I wasn't as vocal as others, but I read a high proportion of her posts, and went back to read more. She was an amazing person, and those associated with her on that mountain are also amazing people.

How did she, or any other person who believes in anything supernatural, come to that feeling, or "knowing"? They certainly write/wrote as though there was absolutely no doubt whatsoever. Rusmeister always wrote about the "Truth" and Wosbald is obviously certain of his faith (and reads truck loads of theological texts judging from all the Matthew Levering in the General Literature ). These are intelligent people. My father was a Rhodes Scholar and learnt English as an Italian immigrant in one year, topped the English class in one year, achieved a PHD, Engineering degree, successful career in practical matters, AND was a religious man. I still don't get it (of course I can't ask him now if he's enjoying the riches of heaven - he doesn't communicate with me ). He never had any doubt, as far as I know. My impression is that you are either born into it (they'll take you as soon as you're warm!) or you experience something profound that means somehow you know...

How can you be so sure? I don't think you can - but maybe I'm missing something important? I really don't think I am though. But I'd still love to hear another perspective. Just saying that you "know" or it's a "feeling" is not an answer, at least not to me. Sky, it sounds like you analysed it, and came to a logical conclusion - and yeah, I can imagine that being very unpleasant, or upsetting. Other people would do the same - if they are being completely honest with themselves I would have thought?

[peter]

Well - it can be all about clutching at straws. Life can take you to places where the only thing that's gonna get you through the next minute, the next hour, the next week is the prayer that may or may not be a waste of time; Those are the places that test your logic, your rationation to its limits. But I'm serious in my assertion that maybe we simply expect too much of God. I'm not at all sure what the relationship between 'the Creator' and 'God' is - are they even forced to be the same thing. Perhaps the one exists where the other is only (wishful?) thinking on our part. But it seems to me, that if you are going to demand consistency in your understanding of the God of religion, then your faith is doomed to fail. You either have to put that particular need behind you, or be prepared to loose all in the pursuit of it.

[Linna Heartbooger]

So two women standing outside a school siege, both praying for their children inside both praying for their children inside.

When I was a child, I remember wondering about an experiment on a very different level.
I was praying for my team to win the softball game we were at.
And I wondered, "What if there's another girl, on the other team, praying to win?"

But here we are, adults with an awareness of the problems of the world far far bigger than a girls softball game that I've long forgotten... this is the world we live in.

It's annoying to know that there -might- be an infinite supply of help through prayer, and yet wonder if we're wasting our time, and also to wonder if we need to risk wasting our time to find out more...

Perhaps our rewards post death are so, so great, that our suffering here is as a trifle to be ignored, like that of a baby in a pram wailing because it is denied a sweetmeat by it's still caring mother. Well - maybe, but it's cold comfort.

the rewards post-death can be that great... can be beyond imagining..
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us."...That was Paul the apostle, and he embraced suffering like a crazy-man that I often wish I could one day emulate.

And yet that doesn't mean that God is saying, "Oh, get over it; it's no big deal." about suffering. (like an anxious parent who wishes their child would just stop crying)
The Old and New Testament portrait is of a God who hears the cry of the sufferer, again and again.

And.. it's not a cold comfort - it's a warm comfort!
I would say that the suffering of this life is partly because of the fear of death, partly because of the hatefulness - and indifference - of human beings towards human persons. And a terror at the things I find I've embraced within my own heart.
To have each of those things gone - totally changed - will be wonderful.

But I admit... you said "cold comfort" ...yeah, often it DOES seem like that... in that embracing the hope of heaven - and living accordingly - seems to deepen the ache.

Somewhere our understanding (my understanding) is flawed. Any thoughts on navigation of these questions. Perhaps it is a false path to even question such things; perhaps it is the case that God's ways are beyond question and answer.

Well, there are some things that are this way... but I think more often when a human says "you just gotta have faith" to shut down such a dialogue... it says more about the human than about which things God is up for people pursuing.

StevieG-
Those lines from Tim Minchin crack me up!
Because of the last 3 lines...
...If you can convince me this is so, I will do three things that :
destroy my livelihood...
do violence to my person..
and do violence to my marriage.
...3 things that such a God who cared about the moral choices of humans would not approve of (not to mention the supposed interlocutor).

High Lord Tolkien- I have been thinking about your question since last night. It's a tough one... I think one long-debated, and with subtleties in people's positions they take.


[Edit: changed "sometimes it has seemed" to "often it DOES seem." because the first one just sounds like me acting like I'm "past that." and that's more ridiculous than I want you guys to even know!]

[Vraith]

When I was a child, I remember wondering about an experiment on a very different level.
I was praying for my team to win the softball game we were at.
And I wondered, "What if there's another girl, on the other team, praying to win?"

Heh...there was some comedian I saw at a club in LA decades ago who commented on that:
[[VERY ROUGHLY===>>>"How come after EVERY game, EVERY interviewed player on the winning team is thanking god for being on their side?
You never hear anyone say "It was great! We were gonna win easy...then Jesus came off the bench on their side! I just thank god for this loss."

[[wish I could remember who the heck it was...I think he even popped up on tv sometime???.. and some of the other jokes...he went on for while making good--but funny--points.

His theme [related to this and some other things brought up] was that it wasn't God that was messed up/weird/hard to understand, it was PEOPLE.
And...on peter "maybe we expect too much of god"...someone [maybe Seinfeld??] did a thing sorta like:

Stop saying "bless you" after every sneeze and all the little stuff. Can you imagine being God checking his schedule where do i gotta be today EVERYWHERE. When? ALL THE TIME. What's on the to do list EVERYTHING!. [[then some more stuff I think, then...]] And what if...so your car is plunging off the cliff and you're like "God, Please!..." And he's "sorry, busy...Hey, don't be mad at me, I covered you on that sneeze thing!"

Anyway...2 things pretty definitely true---
1} Prayer can work, at least some people sometimes. [[though it doesn't matter what faith you follow, what god you pray to...heck, it even sometimes works for atheists who don't believe at all, and just pray to no one/the universe to get/be/do better]] So, it can't hurt to pray as long as you aren't praying to hurt.

2} I'm not willing be say for certain there is no god-like thing. I am willing to say [think I have before] that whatever s/he/it is, it is NOT any of the god's we've described/worshipped. And it is our firmly believed misconception/identification commitments that is the main [but not only] source of the harms done by/for religion. [[and also limits the good that might be done]].

[StevieG]

Peter - if it gets you through the next minute, hour, desperate situation - if it comforts you to pray - then great, I'm glad for you.

Regarding consistency, if God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, wise, just, good, true - surely consistency is a small ask?

Linna, I'm glad you have joined the conversation To use a soccer analogy, because I see it all the time - players thank God if they are allowed on the field by their coach, they thank God if they score a goal, or if their team wins. I haven't seen anyone openly thank God if another religious person on the other team scores a goal, or their team loses, or they stay on the bench for the whole game, or if they get a red card, or if they injure themselves. I'm just not sure why they thank God for these things - we are now talking about professional sportsmen/women, not just kids.

Regarding suffering - is it a comfort to think that there will be a post-death glorious reward beyond imagining? Who wouldn't want that to be true - but how do you know it is actually true? Is it just a matter of faith?

Regarding Tim Minchin's lines - he's basically saying "prove it". Which of course is impossible, so he feels safe in his livelihood, body parts, and wife But I'm not asking for proof, just trying to understand why you (general religious "you") choose to pray and believe in a higher power.

So far I've come up with:

1) it comforts you
2) fear
3) insurance (Monty Python springs to mind here...) - if you find you are right in the end, then praying will count well [never mind that I lived a good life and cared for those around me, but didn't believe in a supernatural being]
4) since there is a great deal of suffering in this life, there must be a reward in the afterlife

[peter]

The Archbishop of Canterbury's envoy Terry Waite who I saw give a talk on the subject, and who you may remember spent five years in chains in an underground cell in Beirut was in little doubt that that it was prayer that saw him through his ordeal. Kept beyond light, subjected to at least two mock executions where he truly believed his end had come as the gun was placed to his head, denied even the most minimal of human contact (he eventually after years discovered he could communicate by morse like tapping on a pipe with John McCarthy in the neighbouring cell), he persisted beyond all levels of endurance, he believes, by the powers of prayer alone. And not by prayer as you or I practice it; during his life he had learned large portions of The Book of Common Prayer by rote and stuck rigidly to this. He said in his lecture that he did not practice extempore prayer (no doubt because of its tendency to lead one into the selfish practice ofsimply requesting that which is for one's own benefit), but stuck to the recognised texts. He was adamant that it was this and this alone that had preserved his sanity, his humanity his very life in that long, dark incarceration. This is a very strong endorsement of the power of prayer by any standards, and the history of religions is full of such examples (and they are not lessened thereby). It's just such a shame that it is because of conflict within or between those very religions that the prayers have had to be said at all!

[wayfriend]

So ... prayer as a source of hope.

I am willing to bet this is a stretchy concept that covers almost all cases.

[samrw3]

2} I'm not willing be say for certain there is no god-like thing. I am willing to say [think I have before] that whatever s/he/it is, it is NOT any of the god's we've described/worshipped. And it is our firmly believed misconception/identification commitments that is the main [but not only] source of the harms done by/for religion. [[and also limits the good that might be done]].[/color]

To me this is the problem. We are trying to identify with God on our human limits, human terms and with cultural biases and backgrounds. You get twenty people of the same religion in a room and get them to completely open up and tell exactly and honestly think how they think of God or a scriptural passage or doctrinal belief you might be surprised how many variations there are. The simple reason is they have their own life that has given them how to define things, they have had their own parents, schooling, cultures, religious teachers and world views that guide them on how to read, view and interpret religious thoughts and practices.

We as humans have done a pretty messy job of trying to be God's servants and believers. I know many of you do not believe in God, That is fine I hold no grudge. But I submit to you some of that bias is how lousy most of us humans and too many "religious" people have screwed up so badly in viewing Gods words and trying to live them.

Why does God let some people suffer and not others? I have no idea. But all I can say with any degree of belief is it is not out of cruelty or some sick joke. God for whatever reason's designed this world to make choices and those choices lead to a lot of suffering we see out there. But I will also submit to you that we may never know why or not know until the afterlife. Many religious people are too scared to say that. I am not - I have no idea why a "innocent" person is stricken with some terrible disease when all their life they have been "good".

But as you will notice I am placing all those terms in human terms through human eyes. My belief is that if I was trying to immerse myself in God's eyes and thoughts that maybe just maybe I would see my suffering in a different light. I hope to understand better one day.

For now I pray every day to try and understand why there is suffering and pain. But I am also grateful there is happiness and joy and nature and love.

I guess I am corny. That is ok. I do not expect anyone else to understand. Because I do not understand. But I am content and just try to be as good to myself and others as I can be. I continue to hope more and better.

[Vraith]

Why does God let some people suffer and not others? I have no idea.

Most of the time, I couldn't give one worthless shit why some suffer and some don't...there are many possible justifications/necessities for that. [[well, I personally do care about their suffering...I just don't care why a god-thing might allow it.]]

No, what matters is why such a being forgives/grants salvation to some but not others....
That's the evil that most god's seem to do.
[[according to the people who keep saying they know which god is what and what it is like.]]
There are only 3 choices:
1-People are totally wrong about god.
2-God doesn't exist.
3-God is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent P.O.S.
Option 3 is basically stupid, but the one way too many people have/do/will follow...cuz people insist on being judgmental fucks.

[StevieG]

Tell us what you REALLY think, V

Peter - Terry Waite used his incredible mental strength, conviction, and unwavering belief through prayer, in his case, to remain sane and help him through his ordeal. It's not a very strong endorsement of the power of prayer, but it is a very strong endorsement of the power of the human spirit for survival. In his case, he would believe with all his heart that it was prayer that got him through - and he's right. But if I were in his place, and had anywhere near the mental toughness, prayer wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't be praying - it would be some other form of mental exercise that would keep me going, because my unwavering belief isn't in God - it would be something else that is vital to me that would help keep me going.

Sam - you have a great outlook on life. So "hope" is also something that is important in your belief? Is your belief in God something that you were brought up with, taught, and decided it was the way to go (don't answer it if you don't want to - I'm genuinely interested)? You pray to understand - will that ever help I wonder.

So, here's another thing to add to the list (thanks wayfriend):

5) hope

[Skyweir]

Interesting developments since last popping by this thread
.. so there may be a god or gods .. prayer is a fairly well established positive principle, regardless of religion and the overwhelming issue resides in the realm of humans and how they interpret what they believe gods will is at various life junctures or even throughout ones entire life.

I spent much of my life as a believer .. but today Ive has to accept ... and it wasnt easy at all .. that somethings in life are true and some things in life are not. Thats a hard pill to swallow after decades of zealous adherence.

So prayer ... I think there is absolutely comfort in belief, so long as that belief offers you comfort. There is immense power in positive thinking, talking and essentially belief. Not necessarily religious belief ... just belief in oneself .. but also in our belief in other things, areligious things like witchcraft, paganism, or anything at all really.

You see incredible capability enabling power in affirmations .. which is basically self talk. I think the human mind is capable of creating physical changes in oneself and sometimes in others.

Very recently a friend in Belgium diagnosed and being treated minimally.. cos she is very poor. She has been receiving self healing whatevers and connecting with a healer of sorts over the internet .. Now she believes in this healing absolutely.. she had her lungs xrayed on Monday and they could detect no cancer, no fluid (she'd been to her doctor (who sees her for free) the week before with breathing difficulties and pain. I told her to go to the hospital ASAP cos maybe she had fluid on the lungs. Well she's been ramping up the healing energy whatever's that she does ... and couldnt wait to tell me her lungs are clear of everything.

How is this possible? She believes she is a witch, a healer, a unicorn and a goddess. She's very sweet but can any of this be rationally true?

Belief .. unwavering, unshakable belief.

Its a powerful thing. She believed she was healing herself, and maybe she has?

Is there a Jesus? A holy trinity? A god creator of the universe and planet we live on? A dark lady that some believe in?

I truly dont know .. but some believe the answers are within us .. and of course, why wouldnt they be?

I suspect religions dont have the answers. I know they lol _ "believe" they do .. at to the degree of belief invested they probably do, to their believing adherents anyway.

Maybe this isnt particularly fair .. I concede I am thrown into a similar quandary.

I wonder what kind of amazing things we humans can do simply by believing we can.