Do You Pine for the Age of Magic?

[peter]

We live firmly, fairly and squarely in the Age of Men. There is no longer within us space for anything other. Whether the Age of Magic can ever be truly believed to have existed given that for us, with the benefit of hindsight, it was simply an age of irrationality, of superstition bred of lack of understanding is not so much what I'm getting at as perhaps would you have preferred it to have been the other way? (Nb Feel free to persue it in the other way as well , or indeed in any direction you so choose.) Would you like, in reality, to live in an age of man, but where previously the elves had "gone away into the West"? Really! Is this anyway just metaphor for the lost (think of it as placebo) effect that 'belief' in those pre-science days, had on the psychology and subsequent physical reality of the people that lived in those days? Ie that it "went away into the West" just means superstition was driven back by the advance of science, and some certainties were thereby lost. Perhaps also a comfort blanket in the form of a metaphor for the people who lived on the boarder line (and are we not really still living on this threshold) between two ages; in the suggestion that the 'old certainties' might yet return when the time is ripe.....in our 'time of need' perhaps.

Yes - there's a bit of me that wants to fall in love with Galadriel (you can tell I'm reading TLOTR at present ) and discuss our lost history with learned mages reading from leather bound books. Tell me there isn't a bit of you that doesn't want to as well!

[Skyweir]

Im soooo sad .. when I read this post, I excitedly replied and went to my next job only to discover now .. it never posted.

I love this post and I am not sure trying to recover my earlier thoughts will do this reply the justice I initially crafted.

Of course I pine for the age of magic. I love LOTRs and fell in love with Middle Earth and all its gifted beauties. How can one NOT fall in love with the elves, especially Galadriel so much wonder, wisdom and delicacy. The gentle, light touch of the elves on their world, yet powerful command of their magics.

Honestly Tolkien is an amazing world builder. Fantasy authors, well really good ones are like gods in their creative capabilities.

I get your metaphor and that of Tolkien, who mirrored his works on his own heart and homeland. The exquisite nature of his own earth, its Forrests, plants and animals.

Is it science and knowledge that moves humankind away from such fantasies.. or does it heighten what can be imagined?

I love such creations and believe it fills one with an exceptional sense of ones own being and existence. I contend it provides one a heightened appreciation of the real and simple beauties in life and ones natural environments. So simple and so beautiful.. that I guess even Tolkien himself was surprised how it could be ignored or even abused and corrupted.

I dont pine for the almost entirely lost ways of our superstitious origins. Rather I pine for the magic manifestations of master world builders.

I am a self confessed escapist. And I cherish my escapes into magical worlds. I cannot imagine, nor would I want to a world void of them.

So yes Pete, a thousand times yes ...

[peter]

Interesting though, when you give it consideration, just how strong in its effect 'belief' can be; just consider what we are now coming to understand as to the degree that placebo influences the real world effects of the pharmaceuticals we take under prescription. How much then did the same effect make magic also manifest itself in real world effects. Nothing is but nothing in this world unless belief makes it so - this is no less true of magic and it's effects than anything else. No?

[wayfriend]

peter, I think you are touching on the Fall from Grace theme, which is a prominent theme in literature. The notion that the world was more beautiful, more lofty, and more significant than it is now. Tolkien plays that theme well, and it is probably a large reason for his success. The Biblical overtones are self-evident. The conservative overtones as well. (Not speaking of politics, but a desire that the world remains as we are accustomed to.) If it strikes a chord in you, well, it means you're a typical angry old man who thinks the world is going to hell and get off my lawn!

There's a connection here to Frye's Theory of Modes in literature. Which I have often touched upon. Historically, ancient literature told tales of great, even god-like men who strode around forging the world out of iron and audacity. While "modern" literature, in Tolkien's day, wrote stories about the ultimate ineffectuality of man. How could this engender anything but a fond recollection for man's former glory?

[Zarathustra]

I think that there are many reasons why this theme resonates with humans, factors that go deep into our physical being (morality) as well as our consciousness of time. It has a mythical quality because it touches on the deepest aspects of What It Means To Be Human. All around us, things are in the process of passing away. The sun literally "passes into the West" each day. Every year it journeys southward, while the Long Night gets longer, and what if *this* is the year when it doesn't return? Everyone we know and every living thing we cherish is marching toward death. Long before we knew of entropy scientifically, we still knew it intuitively.

I think we romanticize the past the same way we romanticize our youth. It seems "magical" because thinking back takes us in the opposite direction of the End.

Obviously, there are many ways in which this is wrong, if you look at the bigger picture (spring, dawn, reproduction, renewal). But for each of us personally, it is our truth. There are only so many dawns and springs we'll see. I'm not immune to it, though I don't pine for the past. Strong people look forward, even if it means facing the approaching Dark. It's the only direction that's real, where you can still affect change. Forward is life, as much as it is death. The age of magic is an illusion, a fantasy.

[Vraith]

Interesting though, when you give it consideration, just how strong in its effect 'belief' can be; just consider what we are now coming to understand as to the degree that placebo influences the real world effects of the pharmaceuticals we take under prescription. How much then did the same effect make magic also manifest itself in real world effects. Nothing is but nothing in this world unless belief makes it so - this is no less true of magic and it's effects than anything else. No?

Yea, blah. The belief/placebo is real...
But it is fucking MINUSCULE...and pretty much one way.
If a million people who don't believe polio vaccines work are vaccinated anyway....it WORKS for pretty much every single one of them, whatever ridiculous shit they otherwise believe.

Dorks probably believe the flu shot causes them to get flu. [[hell, half the people I know, otherwise smart, think that the shot can GIVE them flu, so since they usually don't get flu, so skipping the shot is a good bet. Idiots.]]

If half the polio-folk get placebos instead...the placebo will work for almost none of them, no matter what they believe.
If ALL of them are given placebos---a few get "magic" effects...and a shitload of unnecessarily dead and crippled people.

FUN FACT::: the fake "autism surge" in the U.S. is FAKE. And the places where it "seems" to be greatest are in places that----fuck me running---have LOWER vaccination rates...cuz they're...drum roll...afraid that vaccines cause autism!...WOOT! It's a miracle! Like gun control laws cause violent crime and murders, easy guns makes people safe, EVEN THOUGH easy guns and low control areas have higher gun crimes and death by bullet rates.
That's how ages of magic work! Everything SEEMS more amazing/human/inspiring/awesome...but it's really enmazing/manimal/expiring/awful.

Science works [generally---and it would work even more if we stopped letting the Pharma-corps and similar orgs lie, cheat, and steal]
Magic doesn't [ever--they're worse than Pharma-corps, they ONLY lie, cheat, and steal and it's even harder to make them pay for doing it].

The average person doesn't understand EITHER ONE. [science cuz it's hard, and takes time/effort, magic cuz it's incomprehensible nonsense]...but they can easily see [if they wanted] which works.

But they'd rather believe in the one that makes them feel special/lucky/blessed. And that's magic. Cuz science just makes them feel stupid or lazy.

I'm a total fan of believing/committing---cuz it can HELP---but ONLY if you do it IN ADDITION, and not INSTEAD.

If you "pine" for the magic past, them make it your goal to make the future equal or surpass it. But rescinding/denying the now-known true, or re-instating/imposing the now-known false, to go BACK to it won't work. The number one thing such will do is bring back the really terrible shit that was the real ground of ordinary life.

[Skyweir]

mmm.. Pete ..... not sure I completely understand your meaning.

Are you equating a love of fantasy literature, or arguably any fictional world .. with a placebo? I guess I can see some comparison .. because of its affect on real life living? ie makes you happy, is an effective escape from real life and may affect the way we as humans view and approach reality?

I guess then if such affects are positive .. I can see that. But I am not sure thats what you are saying, or mean?

[StevieG]

I'm not entirely sure what the original post is asking, but I'll give my opinion anyway

I agree pretty much entirely with V's post - particularly:

I'm a total fan of believing/committing---cuz it can HELP---but ONLY if you do it IN ADDITION, and not INSTEAD.

Re looking back into the past - I have no problem with that as long as you're looking back in order to look forward with more knowledge and purpose.

Magic for me is 2 things (that I can think of right now).

1. I love reading fantasy, because it has angels, unicorns, dragons, orcs, elves and all sorts of made up stuff - as well as strong themes on what it means to be human. I love reading sci fi, because it takes real science, and extrapolates possible futures using imagination and an extension of known themes. The possibilities are limitless, and in a lot of sci fi, it feels plausible.

2. Science is mostly all the magic I'll ever need. You could spend several lifetimes merely learning what people have ALREADY discovered, tested, proved about this incredibly beautiful, natural and real world we live in, not to mention about our galaxy and beyond. You could spend several lifetimes delving into the history of incredible human beings who have discovered that our world is not flat, that it's not the centre of the universe, about gravity, stars, electricity, penicillin, anatomy, DNA, on and on and on it goes. If not for science, we would still be dying of colds, flu, all manner of what we would call "trivial" illnesses. Yes, we are the tiniest, insignificant specks of carbon etc, but we get to live twice as long as our ancestors because of the magic of science. And as Isaac Newton said: "What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean"

Magic is all around us. And if you need more fantastical magic, read fantasy (or join a religion - sorry, couldn't resist )

[Skyweir]

I think I disagree with a lot of the more clinical perceptions of fantasy and sci fi .. lol _ Not just cos Im polemic .. pfft ... but because I see the value of works like Tolkiens, Feists, CS Lewis, Hobb etc

I dont think there is anything wrong with escapes of fantasy .. even immersive worlds like Middle Earth and The Land. There is no suggestion that such immersive media obscures reality or ones living in the real world.

I very much agree that we are enveloped in a magical world of scientific discoveries. I know that sounds antithetical ... but Z is right re scientific and technological discoveries.

However, the value of creative world building like Tolkiens .. is that it is ART. Quite literally it adds the value to ones existence that great music, the broad range of visual arts, tactile arts, performing arts, cooking even, poetry etc. Literature is of equal value to humankind as any of the above.

In which case its not so much about romanticising the past .. the glory days, before the fall from grace ... the earth is still the earth, the sky the sky, the oceans, the ocean. Sure they might not be identical to their status in ancient times. There might be less species, sadly .. but .. thats not my point.

I dont see the world as less magical ... its still AS magical. Tolkien definitely influenced by his religious beliefs, as was Lewis .. but Tolkien feared the industrial world and its impact on the natural beauty of his beloved homeland.

Fair enough ... he lived at a pretty awful time re WWI and progressive industrialisation.

Was he romanticising his beloved memories? Definitely and he imbued his great literary creation with that romanticism and magic.

Is it truly a thing we can no longer experience? I dont believe so. Well not from where I sit. There is still so much beauty ... which Tolkien treats synonymously with magic.

Any day I can go on an adventure, into a local rain Forrest and let my imagination run wild. All humans can do this.

I imbue our family Xmas traditions with magic. How? I bring to life ancient legends and stories in my decorating and in food preparation.... Eve Guidici does this with every cake creation. She imbues each work of art with her amazing creative prowess and skills. Her end products are the most magical manifestations ... AND YOU CAN EAT THEM

Why anyone would though... I dont know? There beauty and perfection defies destruction and yet they can and are destroyed ... and enjoyed. Which is one way to appreciate baked ... works of art.

I love my childhood and my children's childhood .. reading LOTRs and the Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe and Enid Blyton .. despite popular criticisms. I was raised on these and more and I loved them. And I loved the magical experience of reading them to my kids.

That act of reading such works to my kids, invited that same magic into their lives and they loved it. So much so they want to record us reading the HP books for our grandchildren so our kids will have them after we are gone.

So I contend that there is nothing wrong with embracing magic ... in such great works of literary art.

Appreciatingthe past is not a turning away from the future .. and neither is it a process strong humans should avoid .. as it may weaken one in some way.

I love my very regular dives into Tolkien et al. As I love my Waterhouse artwork, as I love my carpentry creations, as I love my eclectic musical tastes, as I love watching my son dance, play piano, guitar, sing or watch my daughters body building comps.

There are sooo many ways to immerse ourselves in beauty and magic. And when we pine for such magic .. dive into something new.

[StevieG]

All very true and I agree. Good post! Art is magic too, most definitely. Magic is all around us. It's just that I got the impression from peter's original post that he is lamenting that we're firmly in the "age of man" and wishes for the age of magic. But it is all around us!

[peter]

(Gotta clear this up first; V - there is technically no such thing as "getting the flu". Flu is the aggregate name for the collection of symptoms that the body exhibits as evidence of it's response to the presence of particular types of virus. Flu vaccination, by virtue of it's mimicking the presence of the particular strains that the pharmaceutical industry believe will be most significant in any given year, will elicit those same responses from the body to a greater or lesser degree dependant upon the individual. In a small number of cases, particularly among the very old or frail of health these responses will be sufficiently extreme as to cause death (the body is often capable of 'killing the patient with it's own cure' - that's why we have use steroids in medicine, to mediate the inflammatory response), and both the medical profession and the pharmaceutical companies are aware of this. It's simply a cost they are prepared to accept in balance against greater numbers (putatively) 'saved' by the increased efficiency of an immune response heightened by prior exposure to (and survival of) fragmented, attenuated or otherwise weakened pathogens in the past.)

Now as to magic......

I think I have simply seen too much of the world - of it's harshness, of it's brutality. I pine only for a thing that never existed in the first place (if such a thing an be done) - there never were sylvian glades surrounded by giant trees, emerald grass bespeckled with diminutive flowers of yellow, blue and the palest of green. But in my old foolishness I briefly wished that it had been so......




(As to meaning; look for no meaning here! )

[Skyweir]

Oh Pete,
Do you suppose we have not also seen the brutality and harshness of the world. I have. Soooo much of it. Which is why dives into magic and beauty are absolutely necessary.

You know magic can be found. You know beauty can be found. You know where to find it. I know you do .. you posted a pic of one of your adventures. And now youre re reading LOTRs, and thats an opportunity to deep dive into magic and beauty in spades.

And dont forget beauty is found on the other side of the bathroom mirror . Its just as important to find it in yourself imv .. most would poo poo that .. but if its to be found, its there. I often think how we think about ourselves, is how we view the world. If you can see magic and beauty all around you, you can definitely find it in yourself. It might be instinctively difficult .. in which case, look harder.

I wager you can easily see it all around you, as well as in others. Plus youre a kind hearted gentle soul so pretty much a given

[Vraith]

In a small number of cases, particularly among the very old or frail of health these responses will be sufficiently extreme as to cause death

Yea, right. Not. Whoever tells you that is misreading evidence.
but that's not the topic you intended...and not the intended point of what I said.

Sky, this has nothing to do with fiction is placebo. It hasn't anything to do with FICTION--as far as I can tell, peter was using the TLOR thing as a metaphor for real things [[a meta-meta-phor]].

Fiction is valuable. And fantastic/epic is the best at it for some topics.

But peter was pointing at the "golden age"/"lost wisdom" trope as REAL...that something of ignorance created more satisfying/TRUE knowledge/life...because "mystery"/"magic." AND asking would you want to live there.

And I don't buy it...and no one should want it. Not for one second. As StevieG said and someone else agreed with---no magic has been lost. The only problem with what they suggested is they didn't go far enough.

There is more magic than ever, and more people [[as a PERCENTAGE, not just raw numbers created by healthy people, because of cleanliness and vaccines living long enough to fuck and make healthy babies]] can SEE it and, more importantly LIVE it than ever.

The problem...seriously...is that people who believe in that golden age and similar crap are PREVENTING, actively, the golden future.

There are two ideologies allied [for now, cuz they're natural enemies in the end] in that narrative. The delusional who think the past was better [[[none of whom, AFAICT, have rational, logical, empirical, or any other basis]]], and the authoritarian/tyrannical who don't want a golden age...they want diamonds and platinum for themselves, and just enough brass/bronze---with a touch of silver, and a theoretical, but nearly impossible in fact, path to gold for the "special"---for the masses to keep them "contributing" instead of overthrowing.

It's a semi-common trope/phrase/position/quote that "All of western philosophy is footnotes to Plato."
Only idiots, ideologues, and tyrants take that as anything but a jok-a-phor.

It's common to think that people, in general, had some sort of special connection to/satisfaction with/insight/soul-satisfying dreamystery in the past. They simply fucking DIDN'T.
Not to say that 'living simply" doesn't have it's benefits---cuz it does.
It's to say that what we call "living simply" NOW is only possible cuz of the modern/tech/knowledge expansion. An entire world exists NOW that supports someone[s] who want to "live simply."
Back then "living simply" was LITERALLY a hobby for the rich/lucky. [[[there are just more rich-ish/lucky-ish folk now]]
MOST of what 'living simply" was for the vast masses was, factually, "I'm breaking my body/mind/soul every second, and if I fall down, we all fucking DIE, and if we don't die now, we'll be fucked anyway cuz some shitfucking banker/lord-o-th-manner will make sure we lose it or keep breaking us."
And yet, most of them DIDN't die...and when they did the reason they died wasn't a brutal "world," It was the shits who believe the world is brutal and put brutal people in charge to oppose the brutality.

[Skyweir]

Did I mention Im a genius

[Cail]

In a small number of cases, particularly among the very old or frail of health these responses will be sufficiently extreme as to cause death

Yea, right. Not. Whoever tells you that is misreading evidence.

Off-topic, but Peter's absolutely correct. I've met with more than one family who have lost a loved one due to a reaction to the flu vaccine. It's more common than you think. Still totally worth getting the vaccination, but there are risks to certain people. There's a link to miscarriage as well.

[Vraith]

Off-topic, but Peter's absolutely correct.

Last I knew, no causal connection between flu vaccines and death had been shown.
And miscarriage:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1207210

[Cail]

Off-topic, but Peter's absolutely correct.

Last I knew, no causal connection between flu vaccines and death had been shown.
And miscarriage:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1207210

I have more than one death certificate in my files which lists the cause of death as a reaction to the flu vaccine. I also have medical texts and lecture notes that discuss the (slight) risk.

[Fist and Faith]

All power is one in source and end, I think. Years and distances, stars and candles, water and wind and wizardry, the craft in a man's hand and the wisdom in a tree's root: they all arise together. My name, and yours, and the true name of the sun, or a spring of water, or an unborn child, all are syllables of the great word that is very slowly spoken by the shining of the stars. There is no other power. No other name.

[Vraith]

All power is one in source and end, I think. Years and distances, stars and candles, water and wind and wizardry, the craft in a man's hand and the wisdom in a tree's root: they all arise together. My name, and yours, and the true name of the sun, or a spring of water, or an unborn child, all are syllables of the great word that is very slowly spoken by the shining of the stars. There is no other power. No other name.

I love a lot of UKL.
But how, exactly, are you reading that quote? Why put it here? [[I know how I would read it and why...but that's not the point in re the topic.]]

[wayfriend]

I think he is saying that no time, past or present or future, is any less wonderful or magical than any other, but are only new forms of the same essence. But I will wait and see what he says.

Is it worth bringing up Larry Niven's The Magic Goes Away series? which posits that the world WAS more magical, but the mana was finite, and it eventually was all ... used up.