Avengers: Endgame

[I'm Murrin]

Spoiler

So, like, did Captain America have to ambush Jane Foster and inject the Aether back into her body? Right after a talking racoon took it out? That whole sequence of events must have been very strange for her.

[High Lord Tolkien]

It's the best movie I've ever seen. Been 24 hours and I'm still blown away.

[Zarathustra]

In the long term, though, Thanos's outlook is completely incorrect. Only in the short term will those who survive enjoy bountiful resources, because eventually the population in the universe will begin to increase again and at some point it will reach the same point where he originally concluded that half of everyone must die. He didn't solve the problem, just kick the can down the road.

Thanos is also an idiot. He claims that he wants to kill half the people in the universe because "there aren't enough resources". After collecting all 6 stones he could do anything he wanted to, including doubling the resources of the universe so that everyone would enjoy lives of plenty.

It is one of the dumbest plot points I've ever seen.

But then again, most bad guys in fiction have really dumb motivation. Why can't a bad guy be smart, for once? It always makes the good guy's motivation smart merely by default: no, dude, that's freaking insane, we can't let you do that.

Or maybe it's fitting that the bad guy is operating on the same dumb logic that all resource alarmists have operated on throughout history: Malthusian reasoning. Thanos is your quintessential "environment good, people bad" environmentalist wacko.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Shhh.....
Don't over think.
In the comic Thanos was in love with entity Death (he saw her as a hot looking babe)


He killed off half the universe to impress her, to show that he was worthy of her love.
But then he became too powerful with the Gauntlet and Death said that she was merely Thanos's servant now, which Thanos didn't want (he wanted to be her equal)
So in the end Thanos never gets what he wants.

Imagine having to convey that storyline in just a few movies!
Having him as a deranged pseudo-enviromentalist is easier to grasp and bypasses any religious overtones.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Spoiler

So, like, did Captain America have to ambush Jane Foster and inject the Aether back into her body? Right after a talking racoon took it out? That whole sequence of events must have been very strange for her.

That brings up plot hole number 1:

Spoiler

In Dark World, when the Asgardian physicians are trying to analyze Jane the Aether lashed out to defend her. It didn't do that when Rocket attempted to siphon it out of her? If not, why not?

Why didn't they try to steal it from the Collector? Oh, that's right--we would not have had a moment between Thor and Frigga.

Which brings up plot hole number 2

Spoiler

After speaking with his mother, Thor summoned Mjolnir and took it with him. So...Thor in 2013 did not have Mjolnir to use against the Dark Elves? I bet that made his fight more difficult.

Despite being one of the most satisfying and enjoyable movies I have seen in a long time, the actions undertaken in Endgame leave far too many plot holes, some of which are not only considerable but nearly insurmountable. Let's just say that we are probably 3 or 4 alternate realities removed from the original Infinity War--it isn't the first time we have seen this in a superhero movie (Days of Future Past retconned the entire X-Men movie franchise)--but that is the fault of the scriptwriters and director, not the actors.

Dumb motivations on the part of characters is always the fault of the writers, not the character or actor.

I tried to figure out a way to argue against Zarathustra's interpretation of Thanos but, truthfully, he is correct--Thanos considers "resources" to be more important than "living being", or at least thinks that the only way to solve the problem is "kill half of all living creatures".

Final plot hole:

Spoiler

Despite the Ancient One's very clear warnings to Bruce, they did *not* manage to return all the Stones to the exact moment when they were stolen--Loki got away with the Tesseract in 2012, which opens *major* plot holes. They had to do that, though, so we got to see Peggy Carter one more time--they could have taken the Tesseract while it was in SHIELD's possession before 2012.

[I'm Murrin]

I don't think your second plot hole is really one -

Spoiler

Steve took Mjollnir with him when he went to return all the stones.

But as far as time travel paradoxes, I read an interview with the writers where they basically repeated Hulk's line about "the present becomes your past and the past becomes your future", saying that came from a physicist they consulted. It seems like they completely misinterpreted the implications of this and decided what it means is that changes to the past don't matter and won't cause any effects in the present.

They might be excusing themselves from paradoxes that way, but what they haven't excused is the present-day stuff that would be a huge problem if they didn't have a "let's just not think about it" attitude. How many people died not in the snap itself, but because of it? How many people lost partners then moved on in those five years? Is the post-snap world equipped to deal with the sudden return of billions of people who need to now be fed and housed? Why does it look like Spider-Man Far From Home takes place in a world where nothing has really changed from the previous Spider-Man film, when at half the cast should be five years older than they were?

[Fist and Faith]

But then he became too powerful with the Gauntlet and Death said that she was merely Thanos's servant now

That was kinda hilarious.

[Sorus]

Spoiler

But as far as time travel paradoxes, I read an interview with the writers where they basically repeated Hulk's line about "the present becomes your past and the past becomes your future", saying that came from a physicist they consulted. It seems like they completely misinterpreted the implications of this and decided what it means is that changes to the past don't matter and won't cause any effects in the present.

Spoiler

How did Captain America staying in the past not change history? He would have had to avoid interacting with... just about everyone who knew or would know him. Stay off the grid and not interfere with events he had knowledge of. Would that really have been a fulfilling life?

[lucimay]

hahahaha!!!! Creator and I just came back from seeing it.

yes the plot holes are varied and profuse but MY biggest question was...

Spoiler

what happened to the Gamora that came back with thanos and present (good) nebula? did she disappear with all the bad stuff and thanos? if so why? did tony wish all the "bad" gone? or what? 'splain THAT one for me if you will.

heh.

Spoiler

(yes yes I know she was actually dead in the present like Nat, but that doesn't explain why the past gamora disappeared.)

and yeah, the time thing has me all effed up.

[Sorus]

Spoiler

(yes yes I know she was actually dead in the present like Nat, but that doesn't explain why the past gamora disappeared.)

Spoiler

And how is present Nebula still... present when she killed her past self?

And what happened after Loki made off with the Tesseract? He must have popped back up somewhere. I'm guessing they're leaving that open for him to somehow be alive in the current timeline (guy has more lives than a cat) - but how did it not seriously mess up that whole storyline? And can we hope for a Valkyrie movie? I'm hoping for a Valkyrie movie.

I love time travel paradoxes, even though they seldom hold up under close inspection.

[aTOMiC]

Spoiler

Can the MCU duplicate the success of the Avengers series with the characters and actors they have left after the exiting of Iron man, Captain America, Black Widow, Vision, etc? My gut feeling is no. The lack of star power with the remaining characters and actors is regrettably somewhat less. Do they have a shot if they can develop MCU versions of Fantastic Four and X-Men? Maybe. Seeing a long term build up against Galactus could have potential while retaining characters like Dr. Strange, Black Panther, The Guardians and Thor, Ant Man, Spiderman etc.

By the way. END Game was a hell of a movie.

Spoiler

I mean. Suppose you really got into a book series that featured a protagonist that was really the main reason you kept reading and at some point a new character was introduced that couldn't come close to providing the same interest that the main character did. Then later in the series this new character became the main character and your interest in the series dropped off. Like adding Poochy to the Itchy and Scratchy cartoon and then removing Itchy and Scratchy. In the end maybe Marvel should stay away from event team up films for a few years.

[Cagliostro]

Spoiler

I mean. Suppose you really got into a book series that featured a protagonist that was really the main reason you kept reading and at some point a new character was introduced that couldn't come close to providing the same interest that the main character did.

::cough:: Covenant

Finally saw it on Saturday. I guess I'm going to be That Guy and say that while there were many great emotional payoffs throughout the movie, it just didn't slay me the way it has for so many people. I feel like I've become jaded with comic book movies, and I probably need to take a break. I'll still watch the series Legion, but I may try to avoid everything else. Or at least the Spidey movie....but that's it.

[dlbpharmd]

I think Infinity War was much better than Endgame - but then, I really don't like time travel stories as much as I used to. I kept getting caught up in the inevitable paradox questions.

[I'm Murrin]

I think a lot of Endgame was better than Infinity War, but Infinity War was more consistent overall, and there's nothing in Endgame that hits as hard as the ending of IW. The big finale of Endgame had too much gratuitous fanservice for my taste.

I'm actually rewatching every Marvel movie at the moment and writing about them on my blog, so I might have a more detailed opinion on that later.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'm actually rewatching every Marvel movie at the moment and writing about them on my blog, so I might have a more detailed opinion on that later.

I started that doing that as well. (but not the blog part)
The first Cap movie....all the scenes with Peggy...kill me now.
I'm getting to be such a softy as I get older.

Like when I rewatched the Matrix series.
Neo and Trinity's love story got my attention a lot more that the fighting.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Spoiler

And how is present Nebula still... present when she killed her past self?

Spoiler

When 2014 nebula came forward to 2019 she has an existence which is independent of 2019 Nebula, so killing her did not do anything to 2019 Nebula--they may be the same person but they are not the *same* person. That result would also happen if 2019 Nebula had gone back in time and killed 2014 Nebula--the 2019 Nebula's existence is independent and would thus continue to exist.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Spoiler

And how is present Nebula still... present when she killed her past self?

Spoiler

When 2014 nebula came forward to 2019 she has an existence which is independent of 2019 Nebula, so killing her did not do anything to 2019 Nebula--they may be the same person but they are not the *same* person. That result would also happen if 2019 Nebula had gone back in time and killed 2014 Nebula--the 2019 Nebula's existence is independent and would thus continue to exist.

Spoiler

I need to say I'm sorry to Doc Brown but I like this concept better. It's more fun and allows for more scenarios to play out.
plus, based on the preview, the next Spiderman is going to open up the idea that reality was pretty messed up after Endgame. So anyone that wants the Back to the Future time travel laws to come back might get to see a cosmic entity show up to clean up the Endgame mess. (That's my idea anyway)

[I'm Murrin]

The interesting thing about that, HLT, is that the directors of Endgame say they didn't know about the multiverse thing in Far From Home.

[High Lord Tolkien]

That's funny. Are the Russo brothers done with Marvel for now?
(It is the Russo Brothers right?)

[High Lord Tolkien]

That's funny. Are the Russo brothers done with Marvel for now?
(It is the Russo Brothers right?)

Quoting myself. lol

Now I want a detailed look at the planning that went in behind the Thanos arc.
Did they have Tony's last line in Endgame planned after IM #1 for instance.
Was it that well mapped out before hand?