Zarathustra wrote:Fist, yes, our minds are dependent upon our brains; however, this dependence is a deep mystery, a Hard Problem. One solution to how matter can produce something that seems so different from itself is that perhaps matter isn't actually material, but pure structure. So, since we can't actually say what matter is, the fact of our dependence on it doesn't put any constraints a priori upon how that fact is interpreted. Even assuming that we're not in a simulation, we can't rule out the possibility that matter is nothing more than structure. Our reality is already compatible with that possibility, and the Hard Problems of mind and matter already invite this interpretation--though that isn't proof, admittedly.
Again, I don't see what the HP of matter is. Matter is not what our intuition leads us to believe it is. That's all. Get over it. (Not talking about you.
) Again, as many have said, including both of us recently, it is due to forces. Things like electron repulsion.
And at the base of it all? Again, my money is on strings. Strings of vibrating energy. Vibrate one way (or a combination of ways, in different spatial dimensions), and it is what we call a photon. Vibrate another way, and it is what we call an electron. Another way, a quark.
I couldn't guess how strings combined in certain ways could act in ways that are not (what we have always called) materially reducible.
Zarathustra wrote:Fist and Faith wrote:
If a consciousness emerges within any computer simulation we make, we do not have reason to believe it would not be as dependent on the matter - the hardware: flowing electrons; circuits; etc - as our does, even if it also owes its existence to the abstract structures, as ours does.
True, but this dependence is even more tenuous and removed than the dependence discussed above. There seems to be a level confusion in your argument. There is a distinct difference between A) building a computer that acts like our brain, "simulating" consciousness through a reductive approach, and B) writing computer code that simulates matter itself, and allowing that matter to evolve into simulated organisms with simulated brains--an emergent approach. In A, the "brain" is hardware. In B, the "brain" is software. So the dependence of the (hypothetical) consciousness in B is, in the 1st order, dependence upon a simulated brain. Its dependence upon matter is a 2nd order dependence, i.e. the computer software running on hardware.
But that second order dependence isn't responsible for the production of consciousness, as it is in our brain. Our brain produces consciousness directly. Somehow, matter arranges itself in the right structures to produce consciousness. But those structures are structures
of matter. In the simulated brain, those structures--which produce the consciousness--are structures
of code. We have removed the substance of matter by simulating ONLY it's structure.*
Therefore, if it's possible to produce consciousness in this way, we MUST recognize that we're producing consciousness in an entirely different way than our brain does. It is so different, it would be like writing characters in a novel who become alive and real. If that happened, it would still be true that the words describing them are printed on a physical page, but the fact that these letters formed a conscious being must be recognized as a level of reality beyond the physical dependence of the letters printed upon the paper.
You have no facts on which to base what I highlighted. It's speculation. It may be correct. But it may be wrong. As I will say again below, we could not know that such a consciousness was not dependent on matter unless it could exist free of matter. And we could not know it was able to come into being without matter unless it came into being without matter. Granted, we don't know how to make simulations without matter, so I don't know how we could test this. (Not that it matters. We haven't been able to do it with matter anyway. First things first, eh?) Unquestionably, the different scenarios would reveal different things about consciousness. But that they can be free from matter would not be one of them.
Zarathustra wrote:Fist and Faith wrote:The nature of our consciousness is, to a large degree, shaped by the material. It is dependent on, and interacts with, the material constantly, and a large percentage of the contents of our consciousness deals with the material. For example, gravity plays a huge role in our material lives, and our consciousness is not unaware. Consciously and unconsciously, our consciousness takes gravity into account every moment of our lives.
This is a great example to illustrate the difference: simulated beings wouldn't be subject to our gravity
at all. They literally wouldn't feel it, and the motions of objects in their world would in no way exhibit effects of it. The absolute freedom from our gravity upon the movement of these objects is exactly parallel to the freedom of simulated consciousness from the hardware running the code that simulates the matter making up the simulated brains.
I'll get back to gravity below.
Zarathustra wrote:Fist and Faith wrote:The matter from which a consciousness within our simulations might emerge is very different from the matter from which our consciousness emerged.
That's an assumption, assuming the very thing in question, namely, that there is a difference between simulated matter and real matter. If there is no substance at the core of material structure, then there literally is no difference.
In which case you would be able to program a simulation of your dream house, and move into it. But you can't. Because there
is a difference between simulated matter and real matter.
However, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about the difference between the brain and the computer. Both built from the same things (whether strings or something else), they are very different hunks of matter. I'm saying, if the matter from which a consciousness emerges plays a role in the nature of that consciousness, then consciousnesses emerging from these two very different hunks of matter would be very different.
Zarathustra wrote:And if you can produce consciousness in a medium that has had its substance removed, by modeling only the structures of matter, then you have proven that substance itself isn't a necessry ingredient to make something REAL (rather than merely a simulation).
The substance has not been removed from the medium in your scenario. The medium is still running on - created by and entirely dependent on - the hardware of the computer. You can only prove that substance itself isn't a necessary ingredient to make consciousness if you find a consciousness that came into being with no substance.
You would not prove it even if you removed the consciousness from the computer - from all substance - and it survived. You would only prove that it can endure without substance, not that it was able to come into being without the involvement of any substance.
Zarathustra wrote:Therefore, the assumption that there is a difference between real matter and simulated matter, namely it's alleged substance, it's proven to be an unfounded assumption.
If that scenario was entirely free of, rather than entirely dependent upon, matter. Which it is not. However, even if we
could find a way to have the simulation without the involvement of any matter whatsoever, that would not have been proven. It could be that, though the consciousnesses we have known until now require matter, consciousness is possible without it.
Zarathustra wrote:Fist and Faith wrote:Maybe - just maybe - the abstract structures we put into the simulations, like gravity in GTA5, would have absolutely nothing to do with the formation of an emergent consciousness. At the level of programs, gravity doesn't exist. The structures might confuse it. Because they depict forms/meaning that do not exist at that level, the structures might interfere with, even prevent, the emergence of consciousness.
If simulated gravity held simulated matter together into a simulated world and dictated the possible paths that evolved creatures could take, then simulated gravity would play exactly the same role on simulated consciousness as real gravity played in the development of our consciousness.
Sure, if it happened that way. I'm suggesting a possible reason why it couldn't. If a consciousness is going to emerge from a simulation, it could be that the simulation
and the hardware running the simulation
both play a role in shaping that consciousness. Our consciousness surely came about because of the combination of the matter and the meaning. In our reality, matter and meaning are _ harmonious. I'm suggesting that, if the meaning contradicted the matter, consciousness would not have emerged. Possibly (Hey, this entire topic is outright speculation, so I'm entitled.) consciousness
cannot emerge among such a contradiction. Gravity is the weakest of the forces, right? How much weaker is it from the perspective of a computer? Do programmers have to take gravity into account when they code? Of course not. Gravity holds the computer down on the table or floor, but it does not exist as far as the operation of the hardware and energy, and the programs, are concerned. So how could a consciousness emerge with the "brain and body" of electrons flowing through wires, circuits, whatever the hell computers are made of, where gravity does not exist, when the simulation says gravity is an overriding fact of existence?
Like I say, it's all speculation. Whether or not I'm clearly expressing what's in my head, I'm not sure. But I think I have a case. The emergence of a consciousness such as you are proposing would prove me wrong. So far, I have not been proven wrong.
In the meantime, maybe we should figure out a way to set up the conditions of a computer simulation that are better suited to the conditions of a computer, and see if a consciousness emerges from that.