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Post by Zarathustra »

FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:Whatever your UFO's are, they're not under the command of alien beings. If an object has mass, it can only travel at velocities slower than c, the speed of light in a vacuum. To accelerate any mass to velocity c would require more energy than exists in the universe.

An object travelling at velocities faster than c would not be subject to causality. You've then got to resort to the existence of closed timelike curves. Problem is, if that were the case you wouldn't be living in this universe.

By the way, even if your UFO made of matter was travelling at just 10% of the speed of light and hit a grain of dust it would cease to exist.

As for spacecraft travelling through wormholes... that's a ridiculous suggestion normally made by people who watch too much Star Trek and have no idea what a wormhole (Einstein-Rosen bridge) is.

Whatever the funny lights in the sky may be, they're not ET.
Why are you talking about velocity? No one has suggested that the objects in question travel anywhere near c. They seem to have propulsion systems that are beyond any human technology, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything that you've argued against above.

Are you assuming that alien life must be very far away and to get here quickly it must have traveled very fast? I'm trying to understand your non sequitur reasoning here, so I'm just guessing . . . but none of those assumptions are necessary.

No one has suggested that there are actual alien beings in the vehicles. Maybe they are probes, without occupants. Either way, there's nothing about the speed of light or wormholes or whatever that would preclude actual occupants in the vehicles. Maybe aliens have learned how to reverse aging, and very long space trips are not a big deal to them. (Or other possibilities that don't really matter to the basic premise here. There are most likely civilizations in the galaxy older than our solar system . . . time isn't really the issue here, so there's no need to talk about velocities that decrease the amount of it.)

We are being presented with anomalous evidence. No one knows what the evidence means--or doesn't mean. It is sheer arrogance and/or ignorance to dismiss the possibility of alien technology based on nothing more than an irrelevant physics lecture that seems to have more to do with making you look smart than making a substantive response to the point of this thread. There is absolutely no justification within your reasoning for such incredulous certainty.
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Post by FindailsCrispyPancakes »

Zarathustra wrote:Why are you talking about velocity? No one has suggested that the objects in question travel anywhere near c.
Are you sure? I haven't read through the whole thread in some days now, but I'm pretty sure I remember this being alluded to. I freely admit I could be wrong there though.

Now... just because somebody hasn't mentioned something yet doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning. The reason I mention velocity is because it is the result of calculating how far an object travels over a period of time. If you're discussing space travel with your friends and nobody mentions velocity it's time to put the joint down.
Zarathustra wrote:They seem to have propulsion systems that are beyond any human technology, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything that you've argued against above.
Please specify the theorised nature of these propulsion systems and the physical principles they operate on... Otherwise there's not even a theory there. I would also like to know of any new fundamental particles and forces of nature you wish to invoke in order to flesh out such a theory.

If you don't have a theory then all you've got is an inadequately researched notion that there's something going on you don't understand.
Zarathustra wrote:Are you assuming that alien life must be very far away...
The alien life on other planets orbiting other stars, light years away? Yes. Yes I am. If you want to disagree with that then there aren't enough joints in the world mister.
Zarathustra wrote:...and to get here quickly it must have traveled very fast? I'm trying to understand your non sequitur reasoning here, so I'm just guessing . . . but none of those assumptions are necessary.
Non-sequitir reasoning? All I have done so far is explained the difficulties in accelerating mass/energy to relativistic velocites, outlined the unsuitablity of the EPR paradox for transportation and pointed out some of the problems of space travel via wormhole... during a conversation about space travel. What the hell is your problem with that?

I'm sorry if my doing so poses practical problems for space travel that offend your sensibilities. Breathe into your paper bag. Pick the joint back up if you have to. Try to relax.
Zarathustra wrote:No one has suggested that there are actual alien beings in the vehicles.


1) You did, earlier in your post.
2) Read through the entire thread. People definitely mention extraterrestrials.
Zarathustra wrote:Maybe they are probes, without occupants.
Maybe they are. However, unless you'd like to specify an object that you think fits these criteria then once again, it's not a theory based on evidence. A vague sentiment that the lights someone saw in the sky are a visitor from outer space are not a theory. Be more specific.
Zarathustra wrote:Either way, there's nothing about the speed of light or wormholes or whatever that would preclude actual occupants in the vehicles.
Yes there is. If they possess mass there are many things that preclude occupants being in a craft travelling at relativistic velocities. If you believe you can traverse the black hole singularity at the heart of a wormhole or if you don't understand the effects of relativistic velocities upon mass, or even what mass is... then you simply have NO idea what you are talking about here.
Zarathustra wrote:Maybe aliens have learned how to reverse aging, and very long space trips are not a big deal to them. (Or other possibilities that don't really matter to the basic premise here. There are most likely civilizations in the galaxy older than our solar system . . . time isn't really the issue here, so there's no need to talk about velocities that decrease the amount of it.)
Maybe they have. Now show me your aliens that have harnessed powers beyond our comprehension. Tell me how long they have travelled across space and time for. Tell me how old they are. Read to me their message to all humans from the robotic probe/alien being now they have committed this massive technological feat. Tell me of the trajectory these probes follow if there is no message. Then show me how all the scientists and astronomers in the world have kept this a secret all this time.

Go on, be specific. Give concrete evidence. Show me your research. Show me the aliens. Tell me where their home world is. At least give me a plausible theory with an example.
Zarathustra wrote:We are being presented with anomalous evidence. No one knows what the evidence means--or doesn't mean.
What evidence? You have not cited a single piece of anything that qualifies as evidence. Show me your evidence.
Zarathustra wrote:It is sheer arrogance and/or ignorance to dismiss the possibility of alien technology based on nothing more than an irrelevant physics lecture that seems to have more to do with making you look smart than making a substantive response to the point of this thread.


Look at you, all bent out of shape.

Where do I begin? In a conversation about space travel, someone discusses EPR teleportation, wormholes and relativistic travel it's not a substantive response?

Why? Because it contains things you don't like? Things you don't want to understand?

And what of your arrogance? It is the absolute height of arrogance for you to dismiss the laws of reality because you do not approve of them.

Ignorance? You stand upon the very pinnacle of ignorance when you dismiss the work of scientists who spent centuries building the world you live in. A world you have the freedom not to examine in an objective manner simply because you have made your choice not to understand it.

As for your attempt at personal deflection... please be so kind as to not try pinning your lack of knowledge on this subject on me. It's your fault, not mine.

For my part, I couldn't care less about who's clever and who isn't. You either want objective reality and truth or you don't. The point of knowledge is learning, not gloating. Your accusations speak far more about your attitude towards knowledge than they do about mine.
Zarathustra wrote:There is absolutely no justification within your reasoning for such incredulous certainty.
Thus spake Zarathustra eh? There is no justification for a single thing you have written. You have no evidence to support anything you have said, you don't have any idea what you are talking about on this subject and you clearly have no idea how to construct a logical argument.

Show me your evidence. I can back up anything you like from my post, and am willing to stand corrected if any of my descriptions of those phenomena are wrong.

Your post reminds me of a biblical fundamentalist being confronted with some pesky dinosaur bones.

We are engaged in two different conversations. Until you present some facts and calm yourself down this state of affairs is unlikely to change.
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Post by Skyweir »

mmm... we had a comment in another thread that no questions are irrelevant... no ideas should be dismissed, right?

Findail clearly has a good understanding of these issues .. indeed greater substantial insight than I or many others can offer.

I enjoyed reading all the posts on this thread and love learning from them.

Keep thinking, exploring and contributing. It is very much appreciated.

Thank you for your input.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

It is often easy to try and herd the cats of what is or is not possible re: travel through interstellar space. I do have to admit that "traveling faster than the speed of light" is almost certainly impossible but even if we ignore questions like those then other, more basic questions still need to be answered.

If the non-terrestrials are organic beings, then they have to bring food with them for the trip..unless they bring only some food then start recycling their own waste, but I am not certain I would want to be on a trip like that. No, any being making a trip which is going to last for years--decades, perhaps--is probably going to be non-organic. We have considered the idea of "digitizing one's mind" here before, so perhaps some other technologically-advanced civilization figured out how to do that; otherwise, they manned their ships with AIs and they are hoping those systems don't break down.

I hope their astronavigation systems are accurate--20 years out then 20 years back and you will need to account for your star's orbit around the galaxy.

Any non-terrestrial vehicles which show up here are probably just their version of drones, anyway--why send out people when a drone can do the job without needing food, rest, or life support?
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Post by FindailsCrispyPancakes »

Not to mention that if the point of any expidition to earth from a planet orbiting another star is first contact...

Well, we've only been emitting the sorts of radio signals that might make our presence detectable for (being VERY charitable) about a century. Therefore, our presence would be indetectable by radio to any alien species over 100 light years away.

As a journey at a speed of approximately 40,000 miles per hour would take about 75,000 years to get to Proxima Centauri at 4.3 light years distance (quoted from memory, numbers may be slightly out but the point is made), a slow journey for the purposes of first contact would appear to be an option that can safely be ruled out.
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Post by FindailsCrispyPancakes »

I'm excluding the possibility of a journey for the purposes of colonization due to a lack of evidence.
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Post by FindailsCrispyPancakes »

This still does not exclude the possibility of unmanned reconnaissance craft.

The only conceivable scenario that could explain one arriving near Earth via slow journey within a century of detecting our radio emissions would be that such a craft was in the near vicinity of Earth by sheer coincidence when we started broadcasting.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:I'm excluding the possibility of a journey for the purposes of colonization due to a lack of evidence.
Threads like this are always purely speculative.

Most people presume that non-terrestrial civilizations, should any exist, have a more advanced level of technology than our own; this speculation is usually based on no evidence whatsoever. Of course, decades of bad science fiction--sometimes good science fiction--is the cause of this.
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Post by peter »

There are fairy stories about beings that travel on a beam of light, and closer to home iirc Prot in the books/film K-Pax did so as well - in fact there is much in common with the psychology of belief in fairies and aliens/alien abduction so I'm told. But this aside, the problem of time/distance in long-distance space travel will as Hashi says, have (I'd guess) to hinge around some kind of futuristic ability to interchange between the energy-data of physical materiality and that of electromagnetic waves. Who could say what might be possible were such forms of energy transformation ever to be mastered. Is it possible that the atomic bomb might be the first step in such mastery? We've turned matter into energy; now let's learn to turn it back (or is this like unfrying an egg, which my old chemistry teacher used to say was his response to anyone who said that all chemical reactions are reversable ;) ).
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Post by Skyweir »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:I'm excluding the possibility of a journey for the purposes of colonization due to a lack of evidence.
Threads like this are always purely speculative.

Most people presume that non-terrestrial civilizations, should any exist, have a more advanced level of technology than our own; this speculation is usually based on no evidence whatsoever. Of course, decades of bad science fiction--sometimes good science fiction--is the cause of this.
It could be argued however, that if the aforementioned aliens showed up on earth .. that such would in and of itself be sufficient to hold that the extra terrestrials in question πŸ˜‰ would possess more advanced technological prowess than us. No? πŸ˜›

Just putting it out there for arguments sake πŸ˜‰
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Post by Vraith »

peter wrote:But this aside, the problem of time/distance in long-distance space travel will as Hashi says, have (I'd guess) to hinge around some kind of futuristic ability to interchange between the energy-data of physical materiality and that of electromagnetic waves.
There's an easier way. Cryo. Vitrification.
I'm pretty sure recently somebody froze/killed a bunch of rabbits or something, then brought them back and they were perfectly fine.

Like I said, I believe aliens exist. Most of the technical problems can be solved so SOME kind of intersteller exporation is possible [though FTL is unlikely in the extreme, it seems].

I mostly don't believe we've been visited cuz of the statistics of being here, now [by " now", I mean any time during human's existence]AND the bizarre behavior of the supposed visitors.
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Post by lucimay »

FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:Why are you talking about velocity? No one has suggested that the objects in question travel anywhere near c.
Are you sure? I haven't read through the whole thread in some days now, but I'm pretty sure I remember this being alluded to. I freely admit I could be wrong there though.

Now... just because somebody hasn't mentioned something yet doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning. The reason I mention velocity is because it is the result of calculating how far an object travels over a period of time. If you're discussing space travel with your friends and nobody mentions velocity it's time to put the joint down.
Zarathustra wrote:They seem to have propulsion systems that are beyond any human technology, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything that you've argued against above.
Please specify the theorised nature of these propulsion systems and the physical principles they operate on... Otherwise there's not even a theory there. I would also like to know of any new fundamental particles and forces of nature you wish to invoke in order to flesh out such a theory.

If you don't have a theory then all you've got is an inadequately researched notion that there's something going on you don't understand.
Zarathustra wrote:Are you assuming that alien life must be very far away...
The alien life on other planets orbiting other stars, light years away? Yes. Yes I am. If you want to disagree with that then there aren't enough joints in the world mister.
Zarathustra wrote:...and to get here quickly it must have traveled very fast? I'm trying to understand your non sequitur reasoning here, so I'm just guessing . . . but none of those assumptions are necessary.
Non-sequitir reasoning? All I have done so far is explained the difficulties in accelerating mass/energy to relativistic velocites, outlined the unsuitablity of the EPR paradox for transportation and pointed out some of the problems of space travel via wormhole... during a conversation about space travel. What the hell is your problem with that?

I'm sorry if my doing so poses practical problems for space travel that offend your sensibilities. Breathe into your paper bag. Pick the joint back up if you have to. Try to relax.
Zarathustra wrote:No one has suggested that there are actual alien beings in the vehicles.


1) You did, earlier in your post.
2) Read through the entire thread. People definitely mention extraterrestrials.
Zarathustra wrote:Maybe they are probes, without occupants.
Maybe they are. However, unless you'd like to specify an object that you think fits these criteria then once again, it's not a theory based on evidence. A vague sentiment that the lights someone saw in the sky are a visitor from outer space are not a theory. Be more specific.
Zarathustra wrote:Either way, there's nothing about the speed of light or wormholes or whatever that would preclude actual occupants in the vehicles.
Yes there is. If they possess mass there are many things that preclude occupants being in a craft travelling at relativistic velocities. If you believe you can traverse the black hole singularity at the heart of a wormhole or if you don't understand the effects of relativistic velocities upon mass, or even what mass is... then you simply have NO idea what you are talking about here.
Zarathustra wrote:Maybe aliens have learned how to reverse aging, and very long space trips are not a big deal to them. (Or other possibilities that don't really matter to the basic premise here. There are most likely civilizations in the galaxy older than our solar system . . . time isn't really the issue here, so there's no need to talk about velocities that decrease the amount of it.)
Maybe they have. Now show me your aliens that have harnessed powers beyond our comprehension. Tell me how long they have travelled across space and time for. Tell me how old they are. Read to me their message to all humans from the robotic probe/alien being now they have committed this massive technological feat. Tell me of the trajectory these probes follow if there is no message. Then show me how all the scientists and astronomers in the world have kept this a secret all this time.

Go on, be specific. Give concrete evidence. Show me your research. Show me the aliens. Tell me where their home world is. At least give me a plausible theory with an example.
Zarathustra wrote:We are being presented with anomalous evidence. No one knows what the evidence means--or doesn't mean.
What evidence? You have not cited a single piece of anything that qualifies as evidence. Show me your evidence.
Zarathustra wrote:It is sheer arrogance and/or ignorance to dismiss the possibility of alien technology based on nothing more than an irrelevant physics lecture that seems to have more to do with making you look smart than making a substantive response to the point of this thread.


Look at you, all bent out of shape.

Where do I begin? In a conversation about space travel, someone discusses EPR teleportation, wormholes and relativistic travel it's not a substantive response?

Why? Because it contains things you don't like? Things you don't want to understand?

And what of your arrogance? It is the absolute height of arrogance for you to dismiss the laws of reality because you do not approve of them.

Ignorance? You stand upon the very pinnacle of ignorance when you dismiss the work of scientists who spent centuries building the world you live in. A world you have the freedom not to examine in an objective manner simply because you have made your choice not to understand it.

As for your attempt at personal deflection... please be so kind as to not try pinning your lack of knowledge on this subject on me. It's your fault, not mine.

For my part, I couldn't care less about who's clever and who isn't. You either want objective reality and truth or you don't. The point of knowledge is learning, not gloating. Your accusations speak far more about your attitude towards knowledge than they do about mine.
Zarathustra wrote:There is absolutely no justification within your reasoning for such incredulous certainty.
Thus spake Zarathustra eh? There is no justification for a single thing you have written. You have no evidence to support anything you have said, you don't have any idea what you are talking about on this subject and you clearly have no idea how to construct a logical argument.

Show me your evidence. I can back up anything you like from my post, and am willing to stand corrected if any of my descriptions of those phenomena are wrong.

Your post reminds me of a biblical fundamentalist being confronted with some pesky dinosaur bones.

We are engaged in two different conversations. Until you present some facts and calm yourself down this state of affairs is unlikely to change.



altho the humor in this post was sort of at Zar's expense I LAUGHED MY ASS OFF!! and thanked you for the post FinCakes!!! sorry Zar but you HAVE to admit to Fin's hilarity!!
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Post by Zarathustra »

The main point of my rebuttal to Findail is that you can't dismiss the possibility of alien technology merely on the basis of FTL being unlikely. It's not necessary to assume that aliens have started looking at us because they've recently picked up our radio transmissions. There are UFO sightings that go back centuries. They could have been watching us for a very long time. They could have discovered earth a million years ago and have been watching life evolve ever since. I don't think the concept of deep time is being taken into account here. As I said before, there could be civilizations older than our solar system. Do you all really feel comfortable predicting the technological limits of a civilization 5 billion years ahead of our own?? Even with our relatively new understanding of the universe, scientists today have proposed lots of different ways to travel faster than light, though they are well beyond our technological limits.

But even if we confine ourselves to a journey at 1% of the speed of light, you can still get to the center of the galaxy in 3 million years. For a civilization that's (say) 8 billion years old, this is less than 0.04% of its existence. If they are space faring, they would have had time to make the journey 1000s of times back and forth.

This is why I say that talking about velocity is utterly irrelevant as a limiting factor for our speculation here. It's literally impossible to use this as a way to eliminate the possibility that they are alien ships. Pretending to have certainty on any aspect of this is just arrogance.
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Post by Zarathustra »

FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:They seem to have propulsion systems that are beyond any human technology, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything that you've argued against above.
Please specify the theorised nature of these propulsion systems and the physical principles they operate on... Otherwise there's not even a theory there. I would also like to know of any new fundamental particles and forces of nature you wish to invoke in order to flesh out such a theory.

If you don't have a theory then all you've got is an inadequately researched notion that there's something going on you don't understand.
Fin, no one knows how these objects are moving. That's the point! The fact that they seem to move in ways that violate known laws of physics is exactly why some suspect that there must be an explanation that transcends our understanding of physics (or at least a human application thereof). Insisting that I come up with a theory here is like insisting that I explain dark energy as a qualification for starting a thread on it. I'm under no obligation whatsoever to move human knowledge beyond the current limits of human knowledge just to have a rebuttal for you!

:lol:
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:Are you assuming that alien life must be very far away...
The alien life on other planets orbiting other stars, light years away? Yes. Yes I am. If you want to disagree with that then there aren't enough joints in the world mister.
This isn't the only possibility. The aliens could have been watching us for a long time. Sure, it's likely that they originated far away, but if they've been watching us for millions of years, then distance and velocity are irrelevant to this discussion (see my post above)
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:Maybe they are. However, unless you'd like to specify an object that you think fits these criteria then once again, it's not a theory based on evidence. A vague sentiment that the lights someone saw in the sky are a visitor from outer space are not a theory. Be more specific.
I"m not constructing a theory! I'm noting anomalous evidence! There is insufficient evidence for a theory. For all I know, they could be humans from the future. We just don't know enough to start theorizing at this point. However, we CAN say that the explanation seems to point beyond current human technology, because experts on human aircraft who are trained to detect enemy aircraft--this is what they do for a living--have no idea how these objects are possible. We're not talking about Joe Sixpack seeing lights in the sky. These are trained military observers. 100s of them. Reporting the same thing over and over, on a weekly basis.

Do you think that the Russians (or whoever) have been sitting on technology that is vastly superior to the world's greatest superpower, technology which only makes an appearance in tiny vehicles that track our military's ships? If Russia or any other country had technology like this, THEY would be the world's superpower, and their economy would be transformed on a Utopian scale. It would be bigger than fusion. They wouldn't use it merely to spy on our ships.
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:Yes there is. If they possess mass there are many things that preclude occupants being in a craft travelling at relativistic velocities. If you believe you can traverse the black hole singularity at the heart of a wormhole or if you don't understand the effects of relativistic velocities upon mass, or even what mass is... then you simply have NO idea what you are talking about here.
A) I don't have to know what I'm talking about here, because I'm explicitly talking about A MYSTERY. You are the only one trying to prove that you know what you're talking about. I have no problem saying, "I don't know what this is."

B) There is no need to travel at relativistic velocities (see my post above).

C) You must have missed the latest news: Black holes may not end in a crushing singularity as previously thought, but rather open up passageways into whole other universes.

D) I'm not trying to show off, but I was a physics major in college. I switched to philosophy after a few years, but I've been reading about cosmology, string theory, quantum theory, relativity, and a bunch of other stuff for decades. You don't know me at all. As I've noted elsewhere, you're used to thinking of yourself as the smartest person in the room, and anyone who disagrees with you must be ignorant. Have you ever considered the possibility that everyone you meet isn't dumber than you, and sometimes you can be wrong? Give it a try!
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:Then show me how all the scientists and astronomers in the world have kept this a secret all this time.
For these specific crafts, we didn't start seeing them on our radar systems until they were upgraded to a more "high definition" military radar in the 1990s. Since then, we've been spotting the craft on virtually a weekly basis. And once we knew there was something to look for, the military started actually seeing them with their own eyes. So there hasn't been a secret to keep for all that long. But the military is pretty good at keeping secrets. However, despite the secrecy, it has gotten out. So your question (again) seems to miss the point.
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:What evidence? You have not cited a single piece of anything that qualifies as evidence. Show me your evidence.
I posted links to military videos. I've posted testimony from members of the military who have seen these vehicles and are alarmed enough to take this seriously. You didn't look, did you? Once again, you jumped right into a thread without reading it. Are you even aware of the latest string of sightings? Or are you prejudging this issue merely on the basis of the acronym "UFO" in the title? You talk about "lights in the sky," but that doesn't describe what we've been seeing at all. These aren't just lights. They are actual vehicles being spotted that defy know propulsion systsems.
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:Look at you, all bent out of shape.
Clearly, you're the one bent out of shape. My post was devoid of emotion. Yours is just a rant.
FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote: Your post reminds me of a biblical fundamentalist being confronted with some pesky dinosaur bones.
Nope, no arrogance there! You are clearly an unbiased, objective, purely rational commentator on the subject at hand. :roll:

One person tells you that your points are irrelevant, and you lose your shit. One person has the gall to tell you that you are wrong, and look at what happens to you. You've fallen apart here.
Luci wrote:altho the humor in this post was sort of at Zar's expense I LAUGHED MY ASS OFF!! and thanked you for the post FinCakes!!! sorry Zar but you HAVE to admit to Fin's hilarity!!
lordy loo I laughed so hard. lol
I had a good chuckle, too, but I suspect it was for entirely different reasons. I thought his post was hilariously missing the point, over and over again.
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Gaius Octavius
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Avatar wrote:Generally sceptical myself, but more in terms of the probability of contact than the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

The universe is a damn big place. Seems highly likely that other life exists. Very unlikely that any of it will ever find each other though.

That said, it's hard to think of other explanations for some of these phenomena.
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Definitive proof of intelligent non-terrestrial life will invalidate much terrestrial theology almost overnight. I am uncertain if we are ready for that much culture shock but we need to become ready.
Well, the religions will probably figure some loop-hole. :D

Have always thought though that it would be a great boon to inter-religious/cultural/racial/whatever relations, because whatever else, at least we'll all be humans together. :D

--A
Well, Mormonism is basically Christianity In Space. According to this religion, God was originally a human from Kolob who discovered Mormon religion and became a god in the afterlife.
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Post by Skyweir »

Ahhh so you think Mormonism existed before god?

No Mormons dont quite see it like that ... they think Kolob is where god lives and that there are tall beings that live on the moon .. and oddly specifically dress like Quakers. πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ

They also think similar beings live on the sun β˜€οΈ πŸ˜‰ a trifle hot πŸ₯΅ for most ... umm beings πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ

But then they also believed a charlatan with a penchant for sexual predatory communed with god and translated an indigenous American record with the assistance of a magic stone Smith found when attempting to rip people off ... he was charged and convicted of fraud .. among other things πŸ€¦β€β™€οΈ ... the things you learn when you study church history and their own records.

So pretty sure they dont have a fucking clue πŸ™„ no offence πŸ˜‰πŸ˜›
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Post by Zarathustra »

Let's get back on track.

I think it is important to see the faces of the people making these claims, and to know a little of their background. As I said above, they aren't Joe Sixpack in his backyard seeing lights in the skies. These are some of our military's most trusted and capable officers. Not only are they experts on what they are witnessing (aircraft), but they are real human beings with a compelling story to tell, people who have seen something that not only they can't explain, but for which no explanation exists.

I have provided links below to video interviews with the most important names in the story of the Nimitz encounter, which happened to the Navy's Nimitz Carrier Strike Group off the shores of California in 2004. This sighting involved 100s of witnesses, but these are the most important ones.

Senior Chief Petty Officer Kevin Day from the USS Princeton: radar operator who ID-ed everything that entered the skies. He was the anti-air warfare coordinator, meaning he had the responsibility of actually launching missiles if they went to war. Meaning that he was a HIGHLY experienced, capable, and trusted member of the Nimitz battle group. He was operating the Spy One pulsed array radar system (our most advanced type) at the time of the Tic Tac UFO encounter. He was the first one to notice something out of the ordinary. All of this starts with him.

You can hear the details of his experience in the interview, but the main reason his observations are important is because he provides the raw data (rather than mere impressions) to prove these craft moved in ways that are impossible for any aircraft known to man. When first spotted on his radar, the fleet of Tic Tacs were moving 100 knots at 28,000 feet (roughly 87 miles per hour). This is impossible for any plane. At that altitude, airliners must move 100s of miles per hour merely to stay aloft in the thin atmosphere. The only thing that moves that slowly that high are balloons with the wind (these moved against the wind). So they were impossible from first sight.

But after *days* of witnessing these craft, the strike group finally sent intercept planes to check them out. When the first jet came within sight of one of the objects, Day reports that it dropped from 28,000 feet to 50 feet above the water--where it hovered--in 0.78 seconds! When you crunch the numbers, this is over 24,000 miles per hour. [For comparison sake, our fastest fighter jets go around 3,000 mph]. As he says in the interview, not only would this tear apart any craft we have, but it would have produced a cascade of sonic booms. But there was no sound, and the object came to an abrupt halt after traveling 24,000 mph in less than a second. Again, for comparison sake, ICBMs (nuclear missiles) have a top speed of 15,000 mph. This thing could run circles around a nuclear missile! And then stop and hover like nothing had happened. It's not a fucking drone, that's for sure.

That's what the radar showed. But it was also seen with human eyes. David Fravor, Lt. Commander pilot of an F/A-18 Super Hornet intercepted one of the objects. He reports that the object was hovering just above the ocean, then rapidly rose 12,000 feet towards him, easily matched his maneuvers, and then rapidly accelerated beyond his sight. Now, this is on a crystal clear day, with visibility out to 50 miles. He said that within 2 seconds, it was beyond sight. If you crunch the numbers, that's 90,000 mph!!!

We do have spacecraft that have exceeded such speed. The Juno probe, for instance, has achieved 165,000 mph, but this is due to acceleration in Jupiter's gravity field. In other words, the only way we know how to accelerate objects this fast is to harness the gravitational power of the solar system's biggest planet. Keep that in mind . . .

Lt Commander Favor reports that the object had no wings, no visible propulsion system, no rotor wake (upon the water), and no heat signature that would indicate such a vast power source. His co-pilot is the one who took the famous FLIR (infrared) footage during this flight, that was released to the public by a Freedom of Information Act request. This footage shows that there was no plume of hot gas, as you'd expect for a missile, rocket, or jet engine.

So here are craft that out perform any craft known to man (jets, missiles, space probes), using a propulsion system that leaves no trace upon its surroundings, and is seemingly inexhaustible. Lt Commander Favor reports that the craft descend from above 80,000 (where you can see the curvature of the earth, basically the edge of space), and then hang out for 5 or more hours at a time, sometimes expending enormous energies. For comparison, a fighter jet can only carry enough fuel for about 1.5 hours. So these objects not only expend more energy than we can fathom, they can do it longer than our fastest aircraft.

There is a possible explanation, but you'll have to follow Bob Lazar down the Rabbit Hole . . . He claims to have worked for Area 51 in the 1980s and actually had his hands on the propulsion system of recovered, crashed UFOs. According to him, it's an anti-gravity drive that we have been trying to reverse engineer for decades. The way he described these objects moving--rotating their "bottom" in toward the direction they want to travel--fits the visual appearance and operation of the gimbal UFO footage that only came to light nearly 30 years later, in 2015.

More Navy officers who witnessed the Tic Tac UFOs:

Ryan Weigelt. Ryan was present on the USS Princeton (CG-59) during the tic tac encounters of November, 2004.

US Navy vet Jason Turner.

US Navy vet Gary Voorhis.

Luis Elizondo is a former military intelligence official who ran the Pentagon's secret UFO unit, and he says it is his personal view given all the evidence he's seen that we may not be alone.

For so long, many have clamored for the government to release what it knows about UFOs. It is finally doing it. Former government and military officials are being allowed to speak, or are no longer afraid to speak, and what they are telling us is that this is real.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Damn-it Z, I love this this.
Gets my mind going.
Thanks!
I suppose when you're dealing with unknown gravity propulsion tech that there would also be some kind of inertia dampening technology too.
Those are some pretty fast speeds and stops.
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Post by Zarathustra »

HLT, yes, many are speculating that inertia isn't involved at all, because the things aren't moving through space, but manipulating space itself, as gravity does. (I'm not sure that makes sense: Einstein pointed out that the effects of gravity are indistinguishable from inertia.) Their propulsion is described by Lazar (who claims to have worked on one) as "gravity wave amplifiers." But he admits that they had no idea how they worked (in the 1980s).

The craft can fly in from space, enter the atmosphere at hypersonic speeds with no sonic booms, fly above the water with no wake, and even descend below the ocean with no apparent effects from the environment on them. They don't even heat up beyond ambient temperatures after traveling that fast (as the FLIR footage shows)!

They sure don't seem to be traveling in the same space as the matter around them. They seem to be defying the laws of physics no matter how you "measure" them: radar, visible light, infrared light, and audio waves.

If you watch the Lazar video, you'll hear him describe that when they turned the anti-gravity generator on, you couldn't touch it. He moved his hand towards it, and the thing repelled his hand like two north poles of magnets pushed together. Nothing except (anti-)gravity can explain repelling normal matter like that.
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Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
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