Watchmen Series?!?!?

[Cagliostro]

Yeah, damn I loved this recent episode. It gave us a direction for the show, to some degree, yet I still have no idea where it all is going. So hooked.

[wayfriend]

It occured to me, much later on,

Spoiler

how truly horrific is the idea of someone like Keene becoming as powerful as Dr. Manhattan.

But then I imagined how truly horrific Dr. Manhattan must have seemed to, say, the North Vietnamese.

With a super-powered super-hero, how he looks all depends on whether he agrees with your world view or opposes it. A Dr. Keenehattan probably looks like the second coming of Jesus to some people.

Which I suppose is the point. You really cannot solve the worlds' problems with super-powers. All you can do is choose the manner in which you oppress people.

[wayfriend]

Oh My God!

Ep 8: That was a truly incredible episode. Some earlier reviewer said that this show kept cranking up the intensity in every episode, and they were right.

So many, many, many things answered. So many left.

Just to limit myself to talking about what I enjoyed:

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I really liked how they handled Dr. Manhattan's view of time in this episode, by switching back and forth from one time sequence to another. They managed to explain everything, and explain it well -- as well as provide a really good insight into Jon's view of time. But even more, it is an homage, even a tribute, to the original story's chapter with Jon and Laurie on Mars (titled "The Darkness of Mere Being"). I really loved it.

I enjoyed the time paradox which Angela inadvertently created while talking with Jon/Cal. I enjoyed the way that Jon seemed a bit startled by this, as if Angela had tripped him into doing something he had never done before. I really like the way that this makes any kind of ending possible.

The post-credit scene, informed as it was by the whole backstory of how Veidt got to be where he is, was just joyous. That horseshoe! Brilliant!

I like the choice of never showing us Jon's pre-Cal visage. Possibly a bit of a casting cop-out, possibly an avoidance of a movie-version comparison -- but I see the point of it. The show's too short to confuse things with two visual identities for the same person.

I enjoy -- I really do -- Dr. Manhattan's final catastrophe with the tachyon laser. Is he dead? Is he alive? Does he have a plan? Are we all doomed? Why didn't Lady Trieu save him? What's going on? Why am I pulling all my hair out?!?!

Lastly, I admired the very subtle commentary on the life Jon created on Europa, about the thing it lacks. I have to wonder if, in the end, Jon chose to send Veidt to Europa to give it a Lord Foul, so as to give it some necessary potential which it's peaceful perfection lacked. If so, I have to wonder if Veidt will actually ever return to Earth - it's not looking good. Maybe his whole series of vignettes was merely the Black Freighter of the series, and nothing more.

[Sorus]

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There's a lot of... symbology in play. The corrupt sheriff in Will's film, Mrs. Crawford, and Veidt all ride white horses. Then there's the horseshoe, and of course cavalry refers to mounted soldiers.

Again, I don't think the Kavalry had the know-how to build the tachyon cannon. Did anyone aside from Veidt know about Dr. Manhattan's vulnerability/blind spot/whatever you want to call it?

I really don't want to believe Veidt is working with the Kavalry. Sure he's amoral, and 35 years with no real human contact has made him a bit squirrely (I'm surprised it took him that long to get bored of Utopia), and of course his relationship with Dr. Manhattan is complicated to say the least - but I don't see his worldview aligning with that of the Kavalry.

Lady Trieu might have had the knowledge to build the cannon. I don't know what her motives are and I don't trust her, but again, I don't see what she would need with the Kavalry.

I don't think Dr. Manhattan is dead. I think that either he or Angela will die, hence the promise of upcoming tragedy.

I don't think the series will end with the Kavalry gaining power, but I'm also not holding out for a happy ending.

There will be tragedy. And possibly squid. I can't wait.

[wayfriend]

Thoughts on yours:

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Unfortunately, Dr. Manhattan revealed precisely whether Keene could obtain his powers, and how.

A: So, that's a thing you can do? Give someone your powers?
J: I suppose I could transfer my atomic components into some sort of organic material. If someone were to consume it, they would inherit my powers.
A: So, you can put them in this egg, and if I ate it, I could walk on water?
J: Theoretically, yes.

I found it fairly scary when I heard this, as now Keene's plan is plausible.

I think it's fairly obvious that this "organic material" plays into Keene's plans. But how does he know this? So far, Angela is the only person who knows, although Veidt seems to know enough that he could have deduced it.

Which, as you say, comes back to the question: who's informing Cyclops/Kavalry with all this techno-knowhow? It's either Veidt. Or Trieu. Or another inadvertent time paradox mistake - we have to keep that on the list.

Point: Veidt, in his Antarctic lair (named "Karnak" btw), "maintaining world peace, one cephalopod at a time", was clearly using a teleportation portal that seemed very similar to the one in the old mall. So: perhaps Cyclops stumbles upon Karnak a bit after Veidt is (probably unexpectedly) teleported to purgatopia? They discover Veidt's well-ordered notes on Dr. Manhattan ...

I keep thinking: There's got to be a hypno-device involved somewhere. Maybe Veidt escapes, gets captured by the Kavalry, and they hypno-interrogate him so that he spills all the goods.

I hope we're not getting a (what I consider lame) ending where everyone in the world becomes a Dr. Manhattan because it's the only way to keep the world safe from Dr. Keenehattan.

Good call on all the horse imagery. It was right before my eyes.

[Sorus]

Thoughts on yours:

Spoiler

Unfortunately, Dr. Manhattan revealed precisely whether Keene could obtain his powers, and how.

A: So, that's a thing you can do? Give someone your powers?
J: I suppose I could transfer my atomic components into some sort of organic material. If someone were to consume it, they would inherit my powers.
A: So, you can put them in this egg, and if I ate it, I could walk on water?
J: Theoretically, yes.

Spoiler

Speaking of symbology, eggs have popped up a number of times too. The first episode, in the classroom. Then Will went out to buy eggs when Angela had him 'captive' in the bakery. The scene you mentioned, of course, and also the eggs that were broken when Dr. Manhattan was trying to make waffles. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a couple of others I don't remember - I think the series has quite a few Easter... eggs that might not be obvious the first time around.

It's also possible that I'm reading too much into stuff at this point. Gotta get all my predictions on the table.

Still a lot of big questions.

Who is Lady Trieu's father?
What fell out of the sky?
Who was Veidt's SAVE ME message directed at?

(Prediction on the table. Those three things are connected.)

What will Laurie Blake's ultimate role be in the finale? Is there significance to the punchline of her joke - an underestimated girl killing God?

What is Looking Glass up to?

What are the '8 million children' Veidt was talking about?

What else? I know there's more.

Spoiler

Point: Veidt, in his Antarctic lair (named "Karnak" btw), "maintaining world peace, one cephalopod at a time", was clearly using a teleportation portal that seemed very similar to the one in the old mall. So: perhaps Cyclops stumbles upon Karnak a bit after Veidt is (probably unexpectedly) teleported to purgatopia? They discover Veidt's well-ordered notes on Dr. Manhattan ...

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Good point. It looks like Karnak will be relevant. Can you tell who that is in the preview? It looks like Angela to me. Though no telling where that scene fits in the timeline.

[wayfriend]

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Guess: Senator Keene seems to be the man in a position to know when a NASA satellite orbiting Jupiter spots a "SAVE ME" on it's moon. And with the teleportation portal he has the wherewithal to immediately act upon it.

Factoid: Jon, near the end, says "On the back of the truck is a tachyonic cannon, which they will use to involuntarily teleport me, and then destroy me."

Guess: Jon will be teleported to the location where Laurie is. Then I imagine their plan is to blackmail Jon into doing something in order to save Laurie. Maybe to create an "egg" for Keene. After all, they can hypnotize her to do anything they want. Although I do not think it will resolve as straightforward as that.

Guess: Looking Glass knows where that mall is, which is where it all goes down. He will be there. Like I said, he fit's the trope.

Guess: I think the "8 million children" merely refers to the people Veidt saved when he killed the 3 million others. Children as in now he is responsible for them.

I didn't see the preview for the final episode. Didn't want to peek.

Guess: But it occurred to me that the Kavalry may have obtained Rorschach's journal, and so would know from that about Karnak. They find it (by satellite, maybe), go there, aquire Veidt's technology, and Veidt's tape he made to future president Redford. When they get the SAVE ME, they can teleport Veidt off of Europa. They can then hypnotize Veidt to obtain anything that they need from him. They learn about the organic material method to obtain Jon's powers, and the tachyonic cannon. All this occurred, of course, before the current time.

Guess: the meteor Trieu collected contains a rare element which was used to build the Clock Tower, which is a device that works like an EMP to disable some sort of technology. Possibly it creates a tachyonic explosion.

Knowledge: I am sure that I am not seeing a lot. There are too many thematic and emotional threads that need to be resolved, and I am only looking at the practical issues. For example, there needs to be a statement about masks and/or heroes in this ending. So I am sure I will be very surprised!

[Cagliostro]

Spoiler

Good stuff you all are pulling out. I think I missed a post-credits sequence on the last episode, which I should go back and check out.

So my question is this: was Veidt tricked into a prison of sorts by Dr. Manhattan? Because he seems to obviously want off of it. Which makes me wonder if Keene and the 7th Kavalry are unwitting pawns of Veidt. I would say if anybody is going to obtain a Manhattan-like existence, it would be Veidt. He was the Smartest Man In The World. Is he now the Smartest Man In The Universe? Has he tricked Keene and others to give him the power so that he can escape his incarceration? That would explain who that message was to, and might be to communicate the timing of snatching Manhattan. They were experimenting with teleportation devices, so it isn't too hard to believe they could get something to Veidt, and that they have been watching for signs such as that on Europa.
Just a thought.

[wayfriend]

Good notion!

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Personally, my impression is that Veidt has no ill will for the Doctor. However, I agree that if there was a way he could be manipulating the Cavalry, then he would be.

Perhaps the teleportation between Earth and Europa has been working all along, but Veidt can't use it personally because he'd die like those squid die. Splith!

[Sorus]

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So, just for fun, I went back and watched the Egg Scene from the first episode again. I'd thought from the beginning that it was a loaded scene - that Angela wasn't really talking about making moon cakes - but had no context. It didn't really reveal anything, but I still don't think she was talking about making moon cakes.

Angela voiceover:

"Egg whites are made of protein. When we whip 'em, we get bubbles, and it's the proteins that form the walls of those bubbles."

(A TV shows what claims to be live footage of Dr. Manhattan on Mars.)

"If we don't have walls, it all comes tumblin' down."

(Footage continues. Dr. Manhattan has built a sandcastle, which comes tumblin' down. Camera switches to Angela, separating eggs.)

"Now, those walls are strong, but they won't stay that way if just even a little bit of yolk gets mixed in with the whites. So, that's why we gotta separate 'em."


It could just have been an analogy about living a double life - keeping the illusion that she's a baker separate from her actual career.

Or it could have a deeper meaning involving Dr. Manhattan and atomic components and whatnot.

She would have known that the 10 years were almost up and something bad was coming.

Not based on much and probably wrong, but -

Theory: Angela went to Karnak sometime in the last 10 years. Not sure what she was looking for or what she found. Crawford tracked her or had her followed, and that's how the Kavalry got Veidt's tech and how they knew Cal was Dr. Manhattan.

(Who was triggering the squidfalls while Veidt was on Europa?)

[wayfriend]

Well done.

[Sorus]

Going deeper, because why not...

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Angela wasn't supposed to survive the White Night. The fact that she did raised suspicions, and Crawford reacted by getting closer to her and her family. She wouldn't have told him anything, but maybe if she was planning a trip to Antarctica he could have seen plane tickets or something in her house and had her followed.

Back to the Egg Scene - I think Senator Keene will appear to gain power, but it will backfire when he tries to use it. Whether or not Dr. Manhattan will survive the process remains to be seen.

Lady Trieu is the real wildcard. Why didn't she allow Cal inside when he showed up outside her compound? She knew what the Kavalry was planning. She could have locked him up or just invited him in and kept him waiting - but if she wasn't interested in protecting him, why did she warn Angela? Unless him getting zapped by the tachyon cannon factors into whatever her plan is...


I don't trust her.

[wayfriend]

This is all starting to feel like the ending of the Aladdin movie.

[Sorus]

Spoiler

So my question is this: was Veidt tricked into a prison of sorts by Dr. Manhattan? Because he seems to obviously want off of it.

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I don't think it was intended to be a prison, but I can see why it came to feel like one. Might be a nice place to visit on vacation, but I don't think I'd want to live there. I don't need a whole lot of human interaction in my life, but those people are basically NPCs - not really going to have much of a meaningful conversation with them. No debating the new episode of a TV show - no TV shows, no books - well, one book - did he bring that with him, or did Dr. Manhattan leave it there? It looked like he'd read it about 100 times. I wonder if the trial was their idea, or if he staged the whole thing out of boredom or whatnot.

[Sorus]

(I never saw Aladdin - is that a good thing or a bad thing? I expect to be wrong about most of my predictions, but it's been a fun obsession in an otherwise stressful week.)

Spoiler

Guess: Jon will be teleported to the location where Laurie is. Then I imagine their plan is to blackmail Jon into doing something in order to save Laurie. Maybe to create an "egg" for Keene. After all, they can hypnotize her to do anything they want. Although I do not think it will resolve as straightforward as that.

Guess: Looking Glass knows where that mall is, which is where it all goes down. He will be there. Like I said, he fit's the trope.

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Guess: Looking Glass's mask will protect him from mind control. Ooh. Better yet. It will reflect it.

(I really don't like that mask. It gives me a bit of anxiety every time he pulls it down because it really doesn't look like he should be able to breathe through it.)

[Sorus]

Well. I'm pretty satisfied with the way things were wrapped up, but I have at least a couple of unanswered questions:

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How did Will know that Angela wouldn't see flashbacks of his conversation with Dr. Manhattan? Would it have changed anything if she had?

What was Bian's motive for getting knocked up by Veidt? She didn't like him and it seemed personal, but the logical conclusion to that would be a scandal and/or extortion, and he didn't know Trieu existed until she showed up on his doorstep as an adult. We know that Bian died at some point, but her clone had dreams about being an old woman. Also, how did she find out about the safe behind the painting and the code to access it in the first place? There's a story here, and I want it.

[Cagliostro]

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I just want to know - what was the deal with the elephant?

Yeah, I was definitely satisfied with this series. But I still liked Legion better overall. I guess I draw that comparison because they involve supers and share Jean Smart. And both ended just fine, but neither I was entirely knocked out with.

[wayfriend]

BTW, haven't seen it yet ... la la la la la ...

[Rigel]

I have not been watching, so I'm not reading the rest of this thread, but have any of you seen this review?

Watchmen, not Game of Thrones, proved to be HBO's show of the decade

It's intriguing enough to make me consider binging the series.

[Sorus]

It's really a shame what they did to GoT. It could have been so much more.

It's almost unfair to compare it to a series that had nine episodes with no filler and a pre-planned ending.

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I just want to know - what was the deal with the elephant?

Yeah, I was definitely satisfied with this series. But I still liked Legion better overall. I guess I draw that comparison because they involve supers and share Jean Smart. And both ended just fine, but neither I was entirely knocked out with.

Have not seen Legion. May have to check it out though - Jean Smart rocks and I'm in the market for a new obsession.

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As for the elephant, I can only speculate. Animals are used to mass-produce serums and vaccines and whatnot. Elephants are known for having good memories. I don't know if there's any real scientific logic behind the idea of an elephant-based memory drug, but why not?

Trieu's company logo looks like an elephant, which I find interesting considering that she described Nostalgia as her biggest failure.

-But- (yay Google) there is also a historical (mythical?) Lady Trieu who supposedly rode a battle elephant -and- had a quote similar to what Bian said when she impregnated herself. I would link the Wikipedia article about her, but it contains the sort of accents and whatnot that KW rejects.