Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

[I'm Murrin]

It's a big, dumb mess. It has its good parts, but it also has some really bad parts, terrible pacing and clunky dialogue in the first hour, things that take up time but serve no purpose (hello Knights of Ren), and places where JJ Abrams seems like he's trying to replace everything Rian Johnson added to the series with his own thing (and bring back his favourite toys, like Kylo Ren's helmet).

It's not bad per se - certainly not as bad as any of the prequels - and it does have some good stuff in the second half, but it's not great.

[Rigel]

and places where JJ Abrams seems like he's trying to replace everything Rian Johnson added to the series with his own thing

You hit the nail right on the head. It's almost as if Abrams was trying to undo or apologize for The Last Jedi.

Now, if you're excited to see the movie knowing that Abrams wrote and directed it; or, alternately, you have seen the movie and enjoyed it... You should really stop reading right here. Buckle up, folks.

Spoiler

The helmet was especially egregious. Snoke's calling out of it in TLJ served to underscore Kylo Ren's immaturity in fixating on something like that. In fact, Ren was much more effective when he wasn't wearing it. (After all, why would you hire an actor like Adam Driver and then cover his face?) But Abrams almost seemed offended by this, and petulantly had them reforge the sword that was broken reforge the helmet, giving it ridiculuos red lines all over.

Then there's the villiain himself. Ren was set up perfectly to be the main antagonist of this film. His story arc almost demanded it. Instead, we get a cackling orc who plays Thanatos gambits.
"Kill Rey."
"No, I won't kill her."
"I never wanted you to kill her."
Then, later:
"Kill me with your anger and the Sith will win."
"OK, I'll kill you, and look rather pissed off while doing so."
"NOOOOOO! The Jedi have won!"

By the way, I re-watched TLJ last night, and Snoke was so much more effective than Palpatine ever was. This is not a knock on Ian McDiarmid; he's a good enough actor to deliver exactly what he's asked for, which means this is what Abrams wanted him to do. The problem there is that it just wasn't effective and conveying any kind of threat. Hell, his performance in Return of the Jedi was better. Him playing Vader and Luke off against each other was effective because it didn't matter what the result was. If Luke killed Vader, then Luke would be his new apprentice. If Vader killed Luke, he'd still have his old apprentice. Even Luke defeating Vader and holding back didn't matter because Palpatine would have killed killed Luke anyway.

Building on the theme of not knowing how to convey a threat, Abrams goes for cheap emotional manipulation.
Chewie dies? Oh no! Never mind.
Rey dies? Oh no! Never mind.
Literally NOTHING matters in this movie. You can blow up planets, you can kill heroes, and they'll still sing and dance at the end and wave a magic wand making it all go away.

Except Rose. She doesn't get to sing or dance. Actually, she doesn't do much at all - I think she has 5 words in the movie (see: Abrams erasing TLJ).

The parts with Leia were fine. They were done with archival footage, not creepy CGI, so it's really her - but the scenes are all generic and vague, since they couldn't write the dialogue for them and just had to write around what they had.

The story itself was a confused mess of fetch quests. I lost count of how many McGuffins were used; in fact, they should have cut most of them, and shortened the movie by a good twenty minutes. Not to mention the path to the final encounter had... I'm honestly not certain what it was. It looked like they were piloting Dennis Quaid's ship through an artery system in Innerspace. Except it was outer space. It was literally just an excuse to use fancy CGI and had no relation to the story, or even an explanation.

Continuing on from critiquing the story, the ultimate threat of a sudden Sith fleet was completely unnecessary. The First Order had already won. They had already obliterated the Resistance fleet. They already controlled the galaxy. "Yes, but now you can REALLY control the galaxy, while I laugh!!!" cackles Palpatine.

Sorry if the above is confused or disjointed, I might edit the whole thing later to make more sense.

[I'm Murrin]

Spoiler

The dumbest thing about the helmet is Kylo takes it off pretty much immediately and doesn't wear it for the rest of the film. I couldn't help but think while watching that this could, handled differently, have been used as a signifier for Kylo moving backward, regressing, and that it'd be used later to show him realising it, but nope.

I almost have an entire headcanon alternate cut of this film already there were so many things that could've been easily fixed with tiny changes.

[Rigel]

In all fairness I should also point out what I liked about the film.

Abrams does alright in action sequences. He's no Michael Bay, but he's decent. There's a particular scene on stormy seas I was quite impressed with.

[I'm Murrin]

Oh yeah, there's plenty of good. The second half of the film is well made, even if it's dumb as hell.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I just saw it.
I hated TLJ.
I loved Rise though.
It was awesome!

Fast paced and lots of fun.
It's the best one of the three by far, imo.

[aTOMiC]

Tough crap, critics.
Rise of Skywalker was to me, finally, a Star wars film.
Yes, filled with fan service, but satisfying to me as a lifelong fan.

[Vader]

I enjoyed watching the movie. Yes, you can see it was basically putting the cart before the horse, but that's not Abraham's fault.

In 1977 nobody thought Star Wars would become a such a great thing and a series that kept going for what, 40 years. So you are bound to end up with abunch of different subplots leading to nowhere or logical flaws. J.K. Rowling can alos sing a song about that. When making up a story while telling it. it's hard to keep an eye on eveything (unlike Tolkien who always knew where his story would lead to).

Now Abrahams had to pick up all those random bits and pieces and try to weave them back into one plot again. Not an easy job and if he did reasonably well, I think without copmpletely demystifying the saga.

Of course if he (or Lucas) had the chance to redevelop the Star Wars saga from scratch they would come up with totally different, possibly stronger movies. But with the material given and the mess Johnson left, it was the best anyone could do.

The beginning might have been a bit random and the pace was too fast, making it looked forced (<- little pun) but to me it explained things well and I left the theater today thinking "well, that made sense after all".

As I said, I enjoyed it and though it may not be the best of Star Wars films, it does the saga no shame and puts a worthy end (or beginning?) to the story of the Skywalkers.

Spoiler

[Continuing on from critiquing the story, the ultimate threat of a sudden Sith fleet was completely unnecessary. The First Order had already won. They had already obliterated the Resistance fleet. They already controlled the galaxy. "Yes, but now you can REALLY control the galaxy, while I laugh!!!" cackles Palpatine.

Spoiler

As you can see from the massive fleet of supporters that suddenly pop up, the First Order had not won yet, since they did not physically rule the galaxy. They only scared the shit out of people,making them believe resistence was futile. As you can see one wake up call from Poe gave them enough hope and determination to overcome fear. This might be one of the morales of the movies: don't let fear be your guide.

Spoiler

The helmet thing. Kylo wore it because he was insecure. He took it off when he stepped out of Vader's shadow and became strong enough on his own. This marks the heigth, the climax of Kylo Ren as a villian. From there on he declines, moving back to his old self.

This process (like a hyerbole) is accompanied by doubt. Retreating back to the helmet was like a shield to hide his upcomming doubts. The red cracks in it can be seen as a symbol for the cracks in his faith, thus in at that time of the plot, the helmet was an an important cinematic device, not so much part of the plot. As his doubts grew, he became Ben more and more again, so the helmet vanished again. He was restored when even the scare on his face disappeared. The scares on his soul had healed to, in a way since he found his peace with Han and Leia.

I think using the helmet as a symbol was a genius way to visualize a complex psychological process.

[I'm Murrin]

That would have been great if it was actually in the film, Vader, but that's just reading into it what could have been, not how Abrams actually used it.

[Vader]

That would have been great if it was actually in the film, Vader, but that's just reading into it what could have been, not how Abrams actually used it.

It's not a matter of could have been, to me it is the way Abrahams used the helmet.

On a more general note, what could Abrahams actually do? He made Episoe 7 and already had a story arc for 8 and 9 ready. Then they hired Johnson and gave him free hand. Johnson completely rewote the flick and so the characters in Episode 8 deveolopped into a different direction. In Episode 9 Abrahams had to pick up the shattered pieces and try to fit them into one piece again. And he did pretty wel,giving the circumstances.

Without Johnson interfering the movie would have been different and probably even better, but it is the best we could get and I'm thankful we have it.

[Vader]

A clever line I heard these days answering people who criticize that the movie is full of nostalgics and fan-service.

"When my favourite band goes on their farewell tour I also want to hear all the great hits once more and not just stuff from the new album".

Couldn't have said it any better.

[Rigel]

Abrahams

Quick question, are you posting on mobile? This looks like a consistent auto-correct fail. I ask because I've never been able to consistently access the Watch on mobile.

"When my favourite band goes on their farewell tour I also want to hear all the great hits once more and not just stuff from the new album".

Eh.... maybe? Do farewell tours exist anymore? They'll always do another comeback tour, or release a new "Greatest Hits" album, or something. This sounds a bit like the fan who asks for a refund when Arlo Guthrie doesn't perform "Alice's Restaurant" (despite his public statements that he'll only perform it once a decade).

[Rigel]

He made Episoe 7 and already had a story arc for 8 and 9 ready. Then they hired Johnson and gave him free hand.

There definitely seems to be some mis-communication going on, along with a battle of egos.

Abrams: I've got a plan!
Kennedy: Great, go for it!

Johnson: I've got a twist!
Kennedy: Great, go for it!

Abrams: But... his twist doesn't fit my original plan!
Kennedy: Pfft, do it anyway!
Abrams: Waaaaaaa

Either Kathleen Kennedy needed to coordinate better, or Abrams and Johnson needed to talk to each other more.

[I'm Murrin]

I've kept hearing that Abrams didn't have all that much of a plan, or at least didn't tell Johnson anything that conflicted with the direction he went. Abrams isn't much of a planner, he likes to set up mysteries he doesn't know the answer to and work out what to do with them later - it's pretty much his only trick. True, Rise of Skywalker looks like Abrams had some ideas that he wanted to go for that didn't get set up in TLJ, so he had to cram them in to the rushed first half of ROS, but to me that just makes Abrams look like a bad collaborator.

Remember: JJ Abrams was never supposed to make more than 1 of these films. He was only brought back after Trevorrow was fired (whose firing appears to be universally considered a good decision).

[Vader]

Abrahams

Quick question, are you posting on mobile? This looks like a consistent auto-correct fail. I ask because I've never been able to consistently access the Watch on mobile.

No, I just suck. It's Abrams of course ... as I just learned ...

These three new movies made me feel the same I felt when watching the original movies back in the 70/80s. Heroes doing heroic stuff, sometimes way over the top. But who cares about plot holes and inconsistencies? Hey it's a universe where people fly through hyper space but still live in clay huts.

But I tell you what, that's what I love about it. Some things are not logical, but this adds to the magic. I'm not asking either why a rabbit has a clock and waiste coast or an elephant with big ears can fly.

Too much logic and too much explanation kills the magic, just lke that theory of the Midi-Chlorians did. I enjoyed the movie as it is. Fun to watch and entertaining.

[Rigel]

Too much logic and too much explanation kills the magic, just lke that theory of the Midi-Chlorians did. I enjoyed the movie as it is. Fun to watch and entertaining.

That's a question of aesthetic preference, which means there is no right answer - personally, I don't enjoy movies that are about "spectacle," any more than I enjoy watching fireworks (which is to say, I don't). I'm here for the logical consistentcy. Not everyone will agree with me, and that's OK

As for the midichlorians... I kind of wish that Lucas hadn't chickened out, and he had done the original storyline he had in mind. True, it would have been a mess, but it would have been a glorious mess. I'd rather see a swing and a miss than see them play it safe (for example, I enjoyed both Sorry to Bother You (double, perhaps a triple based on error) and Upgrade (infield foul?) immensely more than either Endagme or Inifinity War).

[Vader]

I'm here for the logical consistentcy. Not everyone will agree with me, and that's OK

In that case Star Wars might be the wrong universe for you from start. Come, they have been flying through space for ten thousands of years and technology has not significantly improved. Not even the look of the space ships. Well, the look changed during the preqels when they went away from the edgy stuff towards a more soft edge design. And then - following the the timeline of the uiniverse - they go back to the edgy design, once the Republic is gone and Palpetine is Emperor. How logical is that?

They have hyperspace, yet use old fashioned radar monitors. They have CCTV cameras installed in death stars and other facilities, yet there don't seem to be any kind of private TVs in people's homes. Not to speak of internet. What do they use instead to transfer information? Poor holograms with shitty quality. You should alo think that such advanced civilizations had better games to offer than crappy holographic chess.

The whole universe is so full of inconsistencies, logic errors and plot holes so huge, you could fly a death star through. And guess what? That's why I like it. Because it's not perfect. Because it's magic and leaves space for fantasy and imagination.

If I want logic, I read Hegel or Kant. Star Wars I watch for entertainment.

But each to their own.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Thewhole universe is so full of inconsistencies, logic errors and plot holes so huge, you could fly a death star through. And guess what? That's why I ike it. Because it's not perfect. Because it's magic and leaves space for fantasy and imagination.

[Cagliostro]

Nah, I'm with Rigel on this, so it seems like the universe has moved beyond me. Part of world building is creating rules and sticking to them. Almost all of the sequels threw out the established rules of the Force, and used the Force as a plot contrivance. Backed yourself into a corner writing the story? Just have a new Force power get you out of it. At least the prequels were mostly consistent.
It might be my age, but I had never fallen asleep during Star Wars movies before, and I did this one. And now I'm finding myself now defending the prequels. I think they were better overall. The dialogue was atrocious in the prequels, and if Lucas wasn't surrounded by yes men, it may not have been a total embarrassment, for the most part. But I never realized it until Lucas left Star Wars - the man can write an action sequence. Darth Maul lightsaber duel - about the only good thing in Episode 1. Some cool sequences in Episode 2, such as leaving the clone factory and into the asteroids, very memorable for me. The first 30 minutes or so of Episode 3 - like a fun rollercoaster ride.
7, 8 and 9? Name me one action sequence that really stands out as fun in the same way. Here is my attempt: I had a bit of fun with the Snoke's throne room with the red guys fighting Ren and Rey, but it felt like it was a lost scene from Kill Bill.

Spoiler

I did really like the lightsaber duel with Ren and Rey on the Death Star, but overall was as exciting as the lightsaber duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin at the end of Episode 3. I think I liked it more because I really like to watch Adam Driver in lightsaber duels, because I find him physically fascinating in his movement.

It was definitely a messy mess because of how stupidly they scripted it - with each director doing their own take. It should have had a level hand with it vaguely plotted out from the beginning. Then let them go nuts.
I'm glad I set my expectations so low because I did somewhat enjoy myself, other than the falling asleep. I found myself with tears in my eyes hastily wiping as the house lights came up. Was it earned or was it nostalgia? Who cares. It did at least make me feel a bit.
I'm glad I saw it, but doubt I'll get all dreamy about it later on. Like all the movies after Empire Strikes Back, they have good and they have bad. Which I guess is why I enjoy watching them. But I really wanted this movie to go out stronger instead of frequently saying, "what was the point of that?"

Spoiler

I liked Rose in the last movie quite a bit, and I was sad they "Jar Jar'd" her. And stuff I read before the movie said C3PO was going to play a crucial role, but didn't realize that would consist of only 1 minute more screen time than in any other movie since Return of the Jedi. It sounded like a nice bookend of the series with C3PO and R2D2 hanging out again and carrying the movie a bit more. But no.

Overall, it just felt like test audiences and fan comments drove the finale more than it should have, instead of a single person with a unique vision.

Spoiler

Oh, and speaking of which, a friend made an interesting observation. He said he wished that the approach of 8 and 9, if swapped, would have been much better overall than what we got. 9 should have been less about retreading the past and more about taking the series into a bold new direction. But it does seem like Star Wars fans are never happy because each of us wants something different from our War of Stars.

[Menolly]

I just have one thing to say as a member of the "simple fanbase."

Spoiler

Wedge Antilles!!!