2020 Presidential Debates

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So, who's winning the Presidential debates?

Trump of course - he steamrollered Biden
0
No votes
Biden of course - Trump made himself look like a blustering fool
4
44%
Winning? This farcical pantomime was cringingly embarrassing
5
56%
 
Total votes: 9

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2020 Presidential Debates

Post by TheFallen »

Well...

How do you guys feel about this so far?

Personally, words fail me. The West's last remaining superpower and what does the onlooking world get presented with? The spectacle of two septuagenarians doing nothing but yelling insults at each other for hours on end, as they scrabble, scratch, bite and claw for purely self-interested control of the swill trough. Honestly, comparing it to some bitter grade school playground squabble is to be crashingly unfair to grade schoolers.

If I were a US citizen, I honestly don't know this morning if my overriding emotion would be depression or embarrassment at that utterly unedifying, unseemly and frankly pathetic spectacle. In fact, even as a non-US citizen, I still feel that way. And you've got two more to go...

The question that cannot fail to asked are thus:-
  • Is this honestly the best that the US can do?
    Is this honestly the image that the US wants to portray to the rest of the world?
    Do you guys honestly feel national pride this morning?
God help us all us if this is an indication of what political debate inevitably becomes. I'm right behind today's Wall Street Journal's expressed opinion of last night's shameful fiasco:-
The Wall Street Journal wrote:A Depressing Debate Spectacle

Pro wrestlers are more presidential than either man Tuesday night.


By The Editorial Board. Updated Sept. 30, 2020 12:45 am ET

No one expected a Lincoln-Douglas debate, but did it have to be a World Wrestling Entertainment bout? Which may be unfair to the wrestlers, who are more presidential than either Donald Trump or Joe Biden sounded in their first debate Tuesday night.

The event was a spectacle of insults, interruptions, endless cross-talk, exaggerations and flat-out lies even by the lying standards of current U.S. politics. Our guess is that millions of Americans turned away after 30 minutes, and we would have turned away too if we didn't do this for a living.

Mr. Trump no doubt wanted to project strength and rattle Mr. Biden, but he did so by interrupting him so much that he wouldn't let Mr. Biden talk long enough even to make a mistake. The President bounced from subject to subject so frequently that it was hard to figure out what he hoped to say beyond that Joe Biden is controlled by the Democratic left. Even when moderator Chris Wallace asked a question that played to the strengths of his record--such as on the economy--Mr. Trump couldn't stick to the theme without leaping to attack Mr. Biden.

The former Vice President wasn't much better, interrupting nearly as much. And for the candidate who says he wants to bring people together, he was ready with his own name-calling. He called Mr. Trump a "racist," a "clown," and told him to "shut up, man." He spun out falsehoods as fast as the President, notably in asserting that 100 million people would be vulnerable to losing their health insurance due to pre-existing conditions. The Obama Administration set up a special fund for pre-existing conditions in the transition to ObamaCare, and the takers were only in the thousands. Mr. Trump didn't know enough to be able to rebut him.

No one won this fiasco, but Mr. Biden did succeed in passing the test of appearing coherent for 90 minutes. Mr. Trump had done him the favor of calling his mental capacity into question for months, so expectations were low. Mr. Biden passed that bar, albeit in highly scripted fashion.

...link...
It now seems confirmed without doubt that those on high in both Pub and Dem High Command have decided that all the US electorate is capable of digesting is shockingly low-brow and cretinously simplistic conflict-driven "entertainment" TV. And in support of that claim, last night's "debate" just about came up to Jerry Springer standards. What disdain and contempt both sides must hold US voters in... just give 'em bread and circuses, eh?

Speaking of which, I'll leave the last word to Steven Sondheim.

And where are the clowns?
Quick, send in the clowns!
...
Don't bother, they're already here.
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

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Post by sgt.null »

Biden had to resort to outright lies like the good white nationalist line. Lying that Trump had not brought drug prices down.

And Biden got to sell the Covid narrative he wants. Not that Biden was against the travel ban. Not the mess Democrats running their states have made. Not the original death calculation of 1-2 million. And Biden once again sd a narrative that may kill people; don't trust a vaccine from a Trump administration.

But whatever good points Trump had were lost in his inability to let Biden talk then counter punch. Show some self control damn it. What happened to any self control? The bully pulpit wasn't needed. Run on your accomplishments versus Joe's decades of failures.

This changed no ones mind. The media gets what they want. Trump is mean.

I can understand that Trump is frustrated. The media went along with a coup attempt fot the last four years but refuses to investigate the corruption that is Biden allowing Hunter to grift on Biden's proximity to power. The media won't call Biden on the Charlottesville lie. Wallace was a joke. But we knew that going in.

Whatever good points Trump made about the growing proof of election fraud was lost. It won't be the story no matter how many times we get stories about ballots being mailed to the wrong addresses. Or ballots dumped in a culvert or thrown in the trash.

The law and order segment was good. But it won't be a focus for a lot of voters. Those against riots are already voting for Trump. Those for violence as a political tool are already voting against Trump.

If I thought Trump would listen, I would tell him to abide by the rules of the debate.

And Trump missed an opportunity when Biden was crying about the taxes. Biden is worth somewhere around nine million dollars. Trump should have told him to quit with the middle class Joe that the press eats up.

It was a wasted chance. Trump will follow his own counsel. And suffer for it.
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Post by Avatar »

Not something I would ever watch, and in the aftermath I couldn't even bring myself to watch clips.

I can only really echo TF's sentiments. And mention as I have before that the GF has long averred that Trump, a reality TV star, is exactly the right person to be the president of the US.

Reality TV indeed...

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Post by Gaius Octavius »

The whole debate was emotionally draining. Trump succeeded in making me hate him even more.

Trump refused to condemn white nationalists and militia. When given the Proud Boys as an example of a white nationalist group to condemn (he feigned ignorance of what a white supremacist/white nationalist was) he did NOT condemn them. He told them to STAND BACK AND STAND BY. Then he literally told his supporters to go and intimidate poll workers and voters during the election.

Trump looked like a massive cunt when he talked about Hunter Biden's history of drug use. Biden gave an excellent counter to this and it made him look -- there is only one word to describe it -- relatable, as a human being. It humanized the Bidens.

Even a Republican Representative (can't remember the name) posted on Twitter that Trump was officially the world's biggest asshole (or something to that effect).

There are people who will say that Trump won the debate. However, just because you are the loudest person on stage does not mean that you won the debate, much less the argument in general. Trump looked like a fool.

Biden did not get as much policy information out as I would like, but then again, how could he? Trump kept talking over him and wouldn't let him say anything. He wouldn't even let Chris Wallace ask the goddamn questions!

Trump succeeded in causing Biden to stutter. I guess he thought that this would "prove" that Biden has dementia? Hell no. Biden has had a stutter since childhood. This just made Trump look like a massive cunt, that's all it did. Even Chris Wallace started stuttering after all the interruptions and childish insults against him.

Biden did just as well as anyone could do, given the circumstances. This was no debate at all. Trump sabotaged it from the beginning, even at the expensive of him being able to state his own policies and why people should vote for him.

They need to be able to mute the candidates when it is not their turn to talk. If the Debate Commission cannot do this, then I see no point in them even having the next two debates to be frank.

I could barely follow what was going on in last night's debate. It was unwatchable.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

On issues (based on what I recall from this chaotic debate):

-Tax: Trump looked insincere when confronted by the moderator over the NYT having a copy of his tax returns. He asked Trump if he really only paid $750 in 2016. Trump kept dodging the question and then finally said "no, I paid millions." It looked like he was genuinely flustered and made up a lie on the spot.

-Race relations: Trump said that Biden was a racist because of legislation he sponsored 26 years ago. He falsely attributed the quote "super predators" to Biden. That was not Biden that said that. Again, a massive lie.

-Law and order: Biden gave a convincing rebuttal to Trump's accusation that he supported chaos and was a radical leftist.

-Green New Deal: Trump tried to prove Biden's leftist credentials by accusing him of supporting the GND. Biden just looked at him and said "No, I never supported that." Trump then tried to spin it and say "Oh now you just lost your support from progressives" (or something to that effect). Yeah, I am pretty sure they already knew when Biden was nominated that he wasn't a fan of the Green New Deal. It made Trump look like a dumbass because he was completely ignorant of what his fucking candidate's policies are.

-Climate change: This was a weird topic, TBH. Only Democrats are taking this issue seriously, so of course Trump won't have climate change policies. Trump tried anyway to bullshit on the spot what his climate change agenda was, which just made him look retarded when the moderator offered a rebuttal (slashing regulations, etc.).

-Healthcare: Trump kept saying that he was going to replace the ACA any day now, the same bullshit he has spewed for the past four years. This came across as totally unconvincing. Biden should have pointed out that he had four years to "repeal and replace" and has not done it.

-COVID-19: Trump looked like a massive moron when he criticized Obama/Biden over their handling of the H1N1 pandemic, stating that 14,000 lives were lost. This was a really, really dumb move. Biden instantly countered that he isn't one to speak because over 200,000 Americans have died so far during the current pandemic. Numbers speak for themselves. Trump kept saying that a vaccine was weeks away despite what the heads of relevant organizations (like the FDA) were saying. The only way to push a vaccine through before the election is to skip trials and market a potentially dangerous and/or ineffective vaccine.

-Accept election results: Trump again refused to say that he would agree to a peaceful transition should he lose. He did the opposite in fact and implied that his supporters could get violent. This must be a headache for the GOP establishment.

To be honest this was so exhausting that this is about the only shit I got out of the debate.

I don't think Biden did very well or anything, but he certainly did better than Trump. I never got any tangible policies out of Trump. It seems his entire purpose of being there was NOT to debate but rather to disrupt it. After accusing Biden of being too scared to show up, it was a cowardly act for Trump to do this. It looked like he was the one who was actually too scared to debate.

EDIT: There was also a hilarious moment when the moderator had to politely tell Trump "That was a rhetorical question" when Trump tried to answer something that the moderator said.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

@Fallen:

Yes, Biden did interrupt Trump as well. Yes, he called him insults. However, if you look at the debate as a whole, Trump was a far worse offender in this regard. Even Chris Wallace pointed this out.

I wish Biden did not do that, but he looked far better when compared to Trump!

Norms have been shattered over the past four years. It should go without saying that commitment to a peaceful transition if you lose should go without saying. Sadly, it apparently does not with Trump.

Biden did well to quickly respond with "YES!" when asked the question. I liked how Biden spoke to the audience when he looked directly at the camera and implored people to go vote, no matter their political leaning. Just vote. Here's how you can vote. Vote by mail, vote early in person, etc. That was a good, wholesome message in a sea of shit that was last night's debate.

As an American, I am at a loss for words. I feel a loss of national pride. I feel shame for helping cause this dark moment in US history because I voted for Trump in 2016.

However, I also see a sliver of hope when I look at Biden.
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Post by wayfriend »

Well that proved it only takes one to ruin it for everyone.

What's Biden supposed to do? Wait for Trump to finish? He'd never get to talk!

Fact checkers rated Trump a freight train of lies. Biden got a couple minor dings.

I think TRUMP IS A RACIST isn't a speculative opinion any more.

Polls show Biden won 60/40. He made a crapton of donations after.

But here's a serious thought ....

Trump threw up Biden's participation in that crime bill. Doesn't it occur to ANYONE

... that the resulting consequences re black incarceration is exactly the systemic racism that Trump denies exists? (The bill wasn't intended to be that way, but it became a baseball bat for racist policing.)

... And that this is the natural result of pushing for "law and order"? (You think Trump is gonna sic the Nat Guard on white protesters?)

The crime bill Biden signed proves everything about Trump.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Well that was the irony of it, wayfriend. He simultaneously denied that systemic racism exists yet accused Biden of creating a bill that allowed systemic racism to exist.

He also falsely attributed "super predators" statement to Biden. I wish Biden had a chance to deny that, but if he denied it, he would likely end up saying Hillary Clinton said that.

Trump pretends like he isn't the person who is the president. His attacks on Biden made it sound like Biden was the incumbent and Trump was the challenger. lol

Besides, people can evolve their opinions over time. Biden signing that bill isn't necessarily relevant today, just like it's not so relevant that Harris was the prosecutor who jailed many POC. People's opinions can change. Biden could easily say that the bill he voted on wasn't intended to foment systemic racism but that in the end it did, and that he wants to fix that moving forward.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

After listening to the debate, I don't see how anyone can still support Trump enthusiastically unless they are an authoritarian.

Trump burst into flames in a spectacular fashion last night, and I don't see how the GOP can correct the capsizing vessel before it sinks beneath the cold waves.

Trump tried to correct his blunder regarding Proud Boys by saying "stand down" today. However, that does not erase the fact that he said "stand back and stand by" during last night's debate. Nothing can erase that. It is in public record forever.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Just a reminder, back in February 2016, Donald Trump was asked on CNN whether or not he would denounce the endorsement from David Duke and the KKK. Trump refused to do so, stating "I don't know anything about David Duke. I would have to look into him."

Trump did the same thing last night with white supremacists, far-right militia, and Proud Boys (a violent alt-right paramilitary group).

It is impossible for Trump to say that he knows nothing about Proud Boys (which he did today following the backlash over the debate). However, it is impossible for someone like him, who is very much steeped in internet culture and the alt-right, to never have heard of Proud Boys before. They are one of Antifa's major opponents and they often fight each other on the street. Where there's Antifa, there's the Proud Boys.

I hope that statement crucifies him. Shame on him, and shame on anyone that defends what he said.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Fortunately for me, I was working so I got to miss it. Two grumpy old men holding a pissing contest on stage? No, thank you--I'll pass.

There is no such thing as an "undecided voter" and no Presidential debate has ever changed someone's mind about a candidate in the last 50 years.
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Post by Zarathustra »

ur-Nanothnir wrote: -Green New Deal: Trump tried to prove Biden's leftist credentials by accusing him of supporting the GND. Biden just looked at him and said "No, I never supported that." Trump then tried to spin it and say "Oh now you just lost your support from progressives" (or something to that effect). Yeah, I am pretty sure they already knew when Biden was nominated that he wasn't a fan of the Green New Deal. It made Trump look like a dumbass because he was completely ignorant of what his fucking candidate's policies are.
From Joe Biden's campaign website:
Biden believes the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.

It looks like you and Biden are the ones who are completely ignorant of what his fucking policies are. It's right on his own website, which obviously neither you nor Joe bothered to read. You just accepted what he said without question.

The debate was painful to watch. Trump actually should have shut up, at least long enough for Joe to put his foot in his mouth. The foot was right there, like a little girl's hair that you might want to sniff, if you're Joe fucking Biden, but Trump stopped him before he got that foot in his mouth, every damn time.

Joe wants to radically transform America, while Trump is fighting for American values, but he comes off looking unhinged while Joe seems like the calm, reasonable one. People are reacting to tone, that's it. They aren't actually listening to what was said. Granted, Trump makes that hard, but not impossible. He did, for instance, condemn white supremacists. He didn't do it dramatically and look into the camera for stage effect (which, for some reason, seems to impress people), but he did denounce white supremacists in his quick, "sure, of course" way. [/i]

I don't think this is as big a deal as people are making it. It doesn't make our country look bad. It makes these two old white gaffe machines look bad. We don't elect Presidents to make us look good. It's not about appearances . . . or it shouldn't be. It's about policies. Biden wants to stack the SCOTUS, raise taxes, shut down the country, ruin our economy with the Green New Deal, ignore the violence from the Left, have psychologists fight crime, and do whatever the radical Left makes him do. That's what we should focus on, not the stylistic issues. So they interrupted each other. So fucking what? This is a high stakes game of deciding who will run our country, and Joe is absolutely the wrong man to do it.
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Post by sgt.null »

The final take away will be Trump not renouncing white supremacists. Why can't he he just say the fucking words...
"I renounce racists, white supremacists. Neo-nazis. Proud boys, the kkk. Storm front. Thd Aryan brotherhood," if I missed any let me know. And the play this...

https://youtu.be/v5AOpBMV0YU
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

I know how to make Presidential and Vice-Presidential debates a more controlled scenario with a clear winner or loser.

1) turn off the microphone of the person who is not the one to whom the moderator asked the question. This prevents anyone from speaking over the other person and allows the answerer to answer.

2) ask specific, black/white or yes/no or support/don't support - type questions, then have a dry erase board and put a check mark in green if they answer the question or a red x if they do not. See who gets more green check marks--that person is the winner.

3) ask the exact same question of both candidates. Don't phrase it differently, just ask it like you are going to ask it. Flip a coin for each question to see who gets asked first, or alternate so one person doesn't get to hear the other person's answer first all the time.

*************

That is a perfect example, Zarathustra--if Biden's campaign website says "Biden supports x" then Biden supports x, even if he says he does not. Is this case, he doesn't even know what his own website says, which is pathetic.

Biden might be able to handle Trump, but there is no way that Biden is ready to handle Putin, and if Biden gets into the White House he will have to deal with Putin. The same goes for Xinping--assuming Biden doesn't simply give Xinping anything and everyting he asks for. How is Biden going to handle MbS?
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Post by sgt.null »

I think everybody supports the mic solution.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

sgt.null wrote:The final take away will be Trump not renouncing white supremacists. Why can't he he just say the fucking words...
"I renounce racists, white supremacists. Neo-nazis. Proud boys, the kkk. Storm front. Thd Aryan brotherhood," if I missed any let me know. And the play this...

https://youtu.be/v5AOpBMV0YU
Well he basically pulls a tactic typical of far-right politicians. He evades the question when responding to it. He did the same shit with David Duke back in 2016. No way he does not know who the fuck David Duke is. Everyone knows who David Duke is. Everyone knows who the KKK are. Yet Trump couldn't bring himself to say "I denounce those people and don't want their support because their values are not my values."

Any normal politician would say "Yes, I denounce those guys." It's funny that Trump is now trying to get Biden to "denounce Antifa." Of course, that would be easy for Biden to do, which would make Trump look even more foolish.

The Trump grifter channels on Youtube are in full-time damage control mode right now. They are taking Trump's "stand down" statement he did in his failed walk back attempt and running with it, pretending that his statement during the debate "stand back and stand by" does not exist. When I politely point out that he did not say "stand down" but said "stand by" (two completely different meanings), my comments always get removed. Trump people are in panic mode over this shit.

As for the mic solution, the Trump campaign is already complaining about it, and they are saying that it is unfair and shows that the Debate Commission is biased in favor of Biden. (They said that it was at the top of their list of things to do for the next two debates.) Of course, that isn't true and anyone with a brain cell can figure that out. But...yeah. I fucking dare you to skip the next two debates, Trump, because they had to implement rules specifically to stop you from totally ruining the debate.

After months of saying that Biden would be too afraid to debate, Trump's actions were cowardly. It is he who is afraid to debate. If he wasn't afraid to debate, he would not have behaved the way he did. Sure, he could have been somewhat aggressive, but that doesn't mean making an ass out of yourself and not letting the opponent talk!

I don't know if this is before or after the debate, but a former RNC chairman, Marc Racicot, has defected and is going to vote for Biden.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Anyone confused over Trump's behavior in last night's election should consider this.

Trump's behavior is typical of authoritarian leaders. For them it is about conveying power, strength. They do this by shouting down their opponent, by hurling insults. They try to keep their opponent from speaking and from showing the public what their values are, how they will govern, etc. It is done as an intimidation tactic as well.

Trump's behavior has consistently been authoritarian for the past four years. If you are turned off by his behavior and you are a Republican, you should strongly consider the bigger picture here and who Trump really is. What Trump aspires to be.

If you can ask yourself those questions and be honest with yourself, you can only conclude that Trump is a dangerous person to have in charge of this country.

EDIT: Trump has also been accused by an ex-wife, Ivana Trump, of having copies of Hitler's speeches near his bedside.

I am not sure how true that is, but it does fit in with the picture we have of Trump as a human being.

Trump admires power, and he holds American democratic values with contempt.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

This is a warning I have made several times before, and I will continue to make this warning until Election Day. I implore you to consider the bigger picture and look past the partisanship and look at Trump objectively.
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Post by Gaius Octavius »

Zarathustra wrote:
ur-Nanothnir wrote: -Green New Deal: Trump tried to prove Biden's leftist credentials by accusing him of supporting the GND. Biden just looked at him and said "No, I never supported that." Trump then tried to spin it and say "Oh now you just lost your support from progressives" (or something to that effect). Yeah, I am pretty sure they already knew when Biden was nominated that he wasn't a fan of the Green New Deal. It made Trump look like a dumbass because he was completely ignorant of what his fucking candidate's policies are.
From Joe Biden's campaign website:
Biden believes the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.

It looks like you and Biden are the ones who are completely ignorant of what his fucking policies are. It's right on his own website, which obviously neither you nor Joe bothered to read. You just accepted what he said without question.

The debate was painful to watch. Trump actually should have shut up, at least long enough for Joe to put his foot in his mouth. The foot was right there, like a little girl's hair that you might want to sniff, if you're Joe fucking Biden, but Trump stopped him before he got that foot in his mouth, every damn time.

Joe wants to radically transform America, while Trump is fighting for American values, but he comes off looking unhinged while Joe seems like the calm, reasonable one. People are reacting to tone, that's it.
Z, saying "crucial framework" =/= supporting the GND in its entirety. He has a climate change policy that has some aspects of the GND but not others. AOC responded to the statement made during the debate and said "it is not news that Biden does not support the GND." She is part of Biden's task force on climate change policy.

So he did tell the truth. He does not support the Green New Deal, but he does support some of its ideas at least.

Source: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/30/politics ... index.html

----

People are reacting to tone from the debate, yes. Of course, that is important to take into account as well. We are voting on who will be the president of the US, for fuck's sake. Trump acting like a complete ass, not even worthy enough to be called an adult, says a lot about his personality. It says a lot about his ability to lead the country. He is a joke.

People are reacting to content as well. Reasonable people see Trump's authoritarian behavior and remarks and run away. They don't support that shit. Period.

Biden was able to coherently articulate policies and what he will do as president if elected, how he will lead the country, etc. Trump did none of that. Even if you disagree with aspects of Biden's policies, Biden showed himself to be the superior candidate for president because Trump doesn't even have a plan! If he had a plan, he could have fucking said it. He did not.

Biden is superior in every way possible, even if he himself is flawed in some ways. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Furthermore, Z, appearances do matter when it comes to having a leader. It matters when the idiot in charge of the country alienates our allies and makes our position on the world stage weaker. That makes America unsafe, and it does not bode well for our future. Like it or not, we are the global hegemon. That hegemony keeps us safe, and it makes us prosperous. Even if it is a headache to deal with.

Trump has done more than any president in recent memory to undermine our crucial alliances and cause other countries to see China as a leader that they can turn to. Don't simply shrug off the mantle of power that we have created for our country.

What made America great is that we were leaders. We showed the world the right way to do things. We were a civilizing force in the world.

Also, it is inaccurate to simply view Trump as an "old gaffe machine." He is much more than that, and what he is should scare the living hell out of you.
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Post by peter »

We've had a few tries at this kind of head-to-head debate in recent UK elections and to be honest I don't think that they are ever a good idea. The ones we had, while not perhaps as confrontational as the one we saw a day or so ago, were still pretty childish affairs with more butting in and shouting over the top than reasoned debate occuring. They might function better if the participants were seated with the moderator in-between them perhaps?

By and large I prefer the face to face interview with the leading political interviewers - a really good grilling on what they have done and what they intend to do. Also a good selection of questions submitted by viewers perhaps. Far more elucidatory of the candidate than a public brawl from which neither emerges with honour. I think the next two rounds should be cancelled by agreement with both Trump and Biden (I'm sure that they don't enjoy this type of thing anymore than the public are educated by it) in favour of the above type of interview - possibly back to back.
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'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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