What happened to Hile Troy's Think Tank?

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Post by wayfriend »

Fist and Faith wrote:It's not the fault of the conservatives that nobody else wants to join in.
Isn't it?
Zarathustra wrote:No one is doing that there.
That's a rather disingenuous statement considering that "no one else wants to join in", isn't it?
Zarathustra wrote:even if you and WF disagree with a particular person's take on them
You just keep having hot takes on my position, in discussions I am not even participating in. I don't think that that is a positive indicator how "discussions" would proceed.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Savor Dam, are you saying that no one in your household got COVID? If so, you’re one of only 6%. Despite everything we did to prevent transmission, 94% still got it.

link

So that’s why we forced so many to stay home, lose their jobs, mask up, vaccinate, get kicked out of the military, thrown off planes, and take classes online? To save 6% from getting it?
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Post by Fist and Faith »

wayfriend wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:It's not the fault of the conservatives that nobody else wants to join in.
Isn't it?
No, it isn't. It's not like all discussions of a political/current events nature must be on the specific topics and in the manner those already posting choose. Anybody could be talking to anyone else, or just posting their thoughts out into the void, on any topic. Nobody has to respond to anybody else's thoughts, or anybody's responses to their thoughts.
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Post by SoulBiter »

I don't even know why we (all of us) are having this discussion here in Gen Disc. If you want to participate in the Current Events thread then you should come over and do so. But rather than come there and make that a more dynamic thread with more viewpoints being represented, we instead have this thread that is its own version and indeed more contentious, but without the governing rules the Current Events thread has.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Zarathustra wrote:Savor Dam, are you saying that no one in your household got COVID? If so, you’re one of only 6%. Despite everything we did to prevent transmission, 94% still got it.

link

So that’s why we forced so many to stay home, lose their jobs, mask up, vaccinate, get kicked out of the military, thrown off planes, and take classes online? To save 6% from getting it?
I would suggest posting this on the Current Events thread, edited.
Despite everything we did to prevent transmission, 94% still got it.

link

We forced so many to stay home, lose their jobs, mask up, vaccinate, get kicked out of the military, thrown off planes, and take classes online. To save 6% from getting it.
SD, despite saying you "no longer feel enough urgency to engage in refuting what [you] consider obvious misinformation," you did exactly that. You posted a response to a Current Events post here. You couldn't have imagined it would go unanswered. It could have been in the thread, with only the slightest editing.


EDIT:
SoulBiter wrote:I don't even know why we (all of us) are having this discussion here in Gen Disc. If you want to participate in the Current Events thread then you should come over and do so. But rather than come there and make that a more dynamic thread with more viewpoints being represented, we instead have this thread that is its own version and indeed more contentious, but without the governing rules the Current Events thread has.
Exactly my point. You beat me to it.
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Post by Zarathustra »

wayfriend wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:even if you and WF disagree with a particular person's take on them
You just keep having hot takes on my position, in discussions I am not even participating in. I don't think that that is a positive indicator how "discussions" would proceed.


You called our discussion “propaganda� and “disinformation.� Based on your own wording, I thought it was safe to assume that you disagreed with at least some of our positions. But if I can’t even say “. . . IF you disagree,� then you’re probably right, it’s not a good indicator of how the discussion would go. I agree with your choice to abstain. But I’m confused why you want to bicker about it here. Is it because here there isn’t a rule against attacking us as propagandists and misinformants?
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Post by kevinswatch »

I'm Murrin wrote:This is the kind of thing that makes people just not bother engaging.
Bingo!

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Post by Fist and Faith »

And that's fine. Nobody should feel as though there's any pressure to engage. But, if you wish you were more engaged in these kinds of discussions, don't not ask for clarification, citations, or whatever, then say that's the reason you're not more engaged. Help make it better. Z just posted a follow-up. He's willing to do the work.
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Post by wayfriend »

Zarathustra wrote:Based on your own wording, I thought it was safe to assume that you disagreed with at least some of our positions.
I never expressed any disagreement with any position in that thread. You know it as much as I, since you have yet to see me post there.

Do you think that by demonstrating how willing you are to twist facts for the single sole purpose of saying something negative about someone, you are making a good case for yourself?
Zarathustra wrote:IF you disagree,� then you’re probably right, it’s not a good indicator of how the discussion would go.
Now it's my fault (!) that you have been proven and demonstrated to be disingenuous, unkind, and vindictive? Twist again!

You are never responsible for any single one of your own actions, are you?

And THAT'S what is indicative about how it would go.
Zarathustra wrote:But I’m confused why you want to bicker about it here.
I'm not bickering about it. Nice way to work in another insult tho.

I'm pointing out what you are saying, as you are saying it. It would be bickering if I was entertaining arguments about whether or not you are doing it. But it's all in black and white.

Stop talking about me, watch it all stop.
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Post by Savor Dam »

Fist and Faith wrote:SD, despite saying you "no longer feel enough urgency to engage in refuting what [you] consider obvious misinformation," you did exactly that. You posted a response to a Current Events post here. You couldn't have imagined it would go unanswered. It could have been in the thread, with only the slightest editing.
Fair enough. My intent was to respond to the "why is there so little participation there" discussion here, but I've now 'done the work' and revised my earlier post here into something in Current Events that also takes into account the subsequent discussion both here and there. Hopefully, I managed to stay within the rules...
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Post by Zarathustra »

wayfriend wrote:Do you think that by demonstrating how willing you are to twist facts for the single sole purpose of saying something negative about someone, you are making a good case for yourself?
Wayfriend, from the bottom of my heart, I sincerely apologize for the obvious and heinous crime of suggesting the mere possibility that you might disagree with what you have labeled, "propaganda" and "disinformation." Clearly, I should have left open the possibility that while you think our discussion is propaganda and disinformation, you might actually agree with it . . . even though doing so makes very little sense. But I should have accounted for that! After all, I know who I'm dealing with. And further, by not leaving open this nonsensical possibility, I was twisting a fact . . . even though I worded it as a conditional statement ("even if . . .") and mentioned no facts. But again, given the context, I should have known better. After all, you are your wonder self and cannot be otherwise.
wayfriend wrote:I'm not bickering about it.

Of course not. If saying something is "disinformation" doesn't imply you disagree with it, then incessant disagreement on nonsensical minutia is clearly not bickering. Again, my deepest heartfelt apologies to you, sir.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Thanks, SD. :)

I hadn't really considered whether or not we can mention Watchers who absolutely do not post in these threads. I guess it could be a problem in some circumstances, although I don't see how it could in this case
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

A few comments regarding the last couple of pages:

- On the topic of offense. Everyone's offended by different things. I'm not an atheist, but I'm not a fan of any organized religion, and I'm downright angry that the catholic church is allowed to exist given their well-documented crimes against children and the ensuing cover-ups. I say that as a former catholic who - between having a close family member being a victim of child sexual abuse and the church's actions - made a decision of conscience that I could no longer belong to or support such an organization I have zero respect for anyone who chooses to remain a part of the organization. The catholic church, to me, is no different than the KKK, or NAMBLA, or any other toxic, abusive hate group or cult. I have had harsh words for a few posters based on their belief that the church is infallible and their constant posting articles from people who were either actual child sex abusers or people who were complicit with the cover-up.

So why is my offense or outrage not as valid? I hate the idea of, "triggering", but child sex abuse is kind of a big deal.

- This little experiment is never going to work if we don't take a deep breath and let the crap from the past go. Yes, I know that's nigh-on impossible given some of the rhetoric that's been thrown around, but we need to be better about it. We're grown adults, and have been going back-and-forth about various topics for decades.

- Fist, I'd suggest that we put a moratorium on words like, "disinformation", or, "propaganda". They only serve to inflame.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:So why is my offense or outrage not as valid? I hate the idea of, "triggering", but child sex abuse is kind of a big deal.
I never thought it wasn't as valid. There was only that one time you went too far. Other than that, although I certainly wish you had expressed it in a more, shall we say, family friendly way, I understood you. Just because Catholicism had been a big party of this country (and the world) doesn't mean it can't be challenged. And when the topic is, literally, the most heinous act there is, I don't think it's wrong to challenge pretty damned loudly.
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote: Fist, I'd suggest that we put a moratorium on words like, "disinformation", or, "propaganda". They only serve to inflame.
It hasn't happened there yet. If it does, I'll deal with it. I guess I should make it a third rule. Say what's wrong with a statement. Say why it is wrong. But don't say someone's intent for saying it is x, y, or z. Pretty sure nobody is a telepath.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Fist, I'll point you to one specific member who posts an awful lot of those pro-catholic links with no analysis or commentary. You (I'm assuming it's you) locked a new thread of his with another of those links. And now that link is in the current events thread. The catholic church is unhappy that there's violence in Jerusalem. Really? is that surprising to anyone? They're going to pray about it? Fantastic, why hasn't someone thought of that earlier? Problem solved!

This is a discussion board, not a kiosk to hang statements such as this. This behavior was a major issue in the Tank because it added nothing to the discussion(s), rather it ended up getting in the way of the actual discussion.

Edited to add: Remember Rusmeister? It seemed like the entire forum gave him grief over his incessant quoting of Chesterton. But at least he had a bit of his own commentary in threads, instead of simply copying and pasting church proclamations which rarely have anything other than a tenuous connection to the topic at hand.
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Post by wayfriend »

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:Fist, I'd suggest that we put a moratorium on words like, "disinformation", or, "propaganda". They only serve to inflame.
So posting it is ok, but pointing it out is the big problem?

What would you have us do in response to this then? What's your reasonable and acceptable alternative? Or is your statement based on the notion that misinformation and propaganda doesn't really exist?

Example: someone says "the Jan 6 investigations are just a way to distract the US public from the fact that Trump won the election". How do you discuss that?

One of the major problems of the think tank was you couldn't keep up with debunking what came out. No one minded when misinformation wasn't backed up with well-qualified links or even any valid reasoning, but if you tried to prove it was wrong with anything less than a scientific paper with less than 10 references you were roundly shouted down for being a "liberal lapdog", and that is no exaggeration.

Sometimes you need shorthand to get passed it all.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Nihilo,

I'm split on that issue, and thinking of a compromise of sorts. And I guess this is a good place to discuss it and see what others think.

I agree that discussing things is the point. But I'm not sure that means it's required. There's no rule against only posting quotes. And skipping over thosr posts is easy enough. Some, at least SB iirc, sometimes reads them. Really, there's no harm done in simply posting quotes.

However, they take up a ton of room. I would like to have a size limit. Or just copy and paste the words as a quote with a link, rather than the image of the words. And either way, no pictures. My opinion is it's just too busy.

What does everyone think about all this?


As for the sources being posted, I feel the same way you do. But I don't know about a rule against posting Catholic sources. If anyone starts doing it, there's no rule against quoting Hitler, is there? I'm sure he said some brilliant stuff over the years. If you want to be known as the person who quotes Hitler all the time, that's on you.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

wayfriend,

I should specify. I only mean declaring the intentions of another poster in the Current Events thread.

As for how to respond to "the Jan 6 investigations are just a way to distract the US public from the fact that Trump won the election"? I'd go with 'I disagree. I think..." If you want to change someone's mind, you're going to have to work for it. Meaning well qualified links or valid reasoning. If they want to change your mind, they are going to have to work for it. Meaning well qualified links or valid reasoning. Nobody is going to change their mind just based on the other person making a claim. And nobody needs links or reasoning to prove something they already think. Everybody, on any side of any debate, is in the same boat. If anybody wants to change anybody else's mind, they'll have to put in the work.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Fist and Faith wrote:[…]

However, [posting quotes] take[s] up a ton of room. I would like to have a size limit. Or just copy and paste the words as a quote with a link, rather than the image of the words. And either way, no pictures. My opinion is it's just too busy.

[…]
FWIW, I through quite a lot of effort — resizing pics and whatnot — in order to format them nicely for the benefit of all. Plus, as you've probably noticed, I've always edited the length of articles to what was (at least, to my mind) a relative minimum of essentials.

Pics help make them handsomer, easier to navigate, and easier to remember where info is located if it needs to be redeployed in the context of another convo.

Plus, putting logo pics identifying the particular newspaper, mag, blog, research center, etc. helps people choose their sources. If someone trusts Source 'X' relatively more (or less), then it's easier for them to assign a credence-level to that particular post.

There's a method to Wos' madness.

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Post by SoulBiter »

Fist and Faith wrote:wayfriend,

I should specify. I only mean declaring the intentions of another poster in the Current Events thread.

As for how to respond to "the Jan 6 investigations are just a way to distract the US public from the fact that Trump won the election"? I'd go with 'I disagree. I think..." If you want to change someone's mind, you're going to have to work for it. Meaning well qualified links or valid reasoning. If they want to change your mind, they are going to have to work for it. Meaning well qualified links or valid reasoning. Nobody is going to change their mind just based on the other person making a claim. And nobody needs links or reasoning to prove something they already think. Everybody, on any side of any debate, is in the same boat. If anybody wants to change anybody else's mind, they'll have to put in the work.
That is fair. I agree because propaganda and disinformation can apply to just about anything that anyone might disagree with. Its just about in line with starting a post with "Well all of what you said is a big fat lie". Its not constructive to a discussion. Rather it would be better to say "Well I disagree with that post or information and here is why I disagree with it". That disagreement wont settle who is right or wrong but have we really ever changed anyone's mind in these debates? I would say that its happened but its a rarity.

Example: the thread on Capital punishment. I have said that I agree with it but the posts there are so solid and well reasoned that its got me rethinking my support for it.
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