Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8

Post by **Blue_Spawn** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:12 pm

Geesh... TWO years and this topic is still making hot debate.

I think, we should take out all the relevant posts and combine them into a sort of a downloadable discussion. The things some people said here, are just too good. And with the recent loss of data, we should start thinking about preserving this thread.

It's just too good.

Post by **Rivenrock** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:39 am

Post by **wayfriend** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:32 pm

Rivenrock wrote:There are several posts missing that would clear up that mystery for you ... She IS in fact, totally blameless.

And one of the replies that is missing is the one where I said "I agree 100.00%."

I do agree with the proposition that there are things that, had Lena not done them, things might have turned out different. That is not blame. It is only unfortunate circumstance. (Of course, things can't really "turn out different".)

I mention this because (a) I think that sometimes when someone says "Lena is partly to blame", I think that they only mean "Lena did some things which, had she not done them, things would have turned out different". I don't think that they are saying that, in some degree, she asked for or deserved what happened. So a generous application of doubt benefit is warranted.

And (b) talking about it this way, while being essentially useless (and perhaps irksome) when discussing Lena, is very useful when discussing Covenant. As in, what forces were at work on him that pushed him over the edge? Didn't Lena's [innocent] [apparent] flirtation contribute to his rage? Didn't her [innocent] trust-cum-worship of him contribute to the paranoid idea that this was dream designed to trap him? etc. So context also must be taken into consideration. Remember, this last burst of threadage was initially about whether or not Covenant was enacting hatred by raping Lena.

Peace.

Post by **Rivenrock** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:19 am

Post by **Skyweir** » Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:20 am

Wayfriend in answer to your question why I took the tack I did .. is precisely what rivenrock has already stated.

My response was in answer to claims that Lena shared some responsibility for her own rape!! Indeed that she was not only partly to blame .. but to blame!

Discussions regarding her flirting and her crush implied her wanting or desiring a sexual encounter with TC.

A previous posteer even poised .. a statement to the effect that "do you not know any 15 year old girls" to imply that 15 year old girls are guiltyof inciting sexual interest in unsuspecting males!

The direction of the thread was taking task with Lena and questioning her status of victim of rape.

Implying that well .. "she was young, pretty .. even nubile" flaunting her health in TC's way .. that this comprises an apportionment of blame for the actions of anther!

It is clear from SRD .. TC raped Lena .. without any provocation from Lena whatsoever.

You can analyse the actions of TC the rapist from a variety of perspectives to seek to understand his actions .. but at the end of the day .. he raped Lena because he - 1. chose to and .. most importantly 2. because he could!!!!

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:23 pm

Well, then I stand corrected.

But you have an unexpected and unfathomable definition of "blame".

Post by **Rivenrock** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:51 am

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:29 am

Wayfriend wrote:Well, then I stand corrected.

But you have an unexpected and unfathomable definition of "blame".

i'm surprised you have never understood that blame implies responsibiltiy!

if you are to blame for something are you not attributed with responsibility for that thing?

Post by **wayfriend** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:56 am

Well, I'd rather drop out of his thread about now, as it seems to me to be about response-bashing at this point.

Skyweir wrote:i'm surprised you have never understood that blame implies responsibiltiy!

I'm surprised that you know so much about what I understand!

Let me try saying it another way. I don't understand why all the things you point out as making Lena responsible make her responsible. I wouldn't say she was responsible (at fault, or guilty) if she had done a striptease, vowed to be his sex slave forever, dropped two viagra in his wine, and whispered 'take me, take me' in his ear all night. Because even those things are not an invitation to a rape.

Post by **judith** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:33 am

Anyway....

the posts are missing and are now only in peoples memory's and are being mis-quoted and I have to say that I never said that any of my thoughts were my deep down at the heart of things beliefs. Just that they were thoughts I had while reading the books. I am sorry that I caused offence by posting these ideas or thoughts and that some of my words are not quite right. (Im not a writter unfortunately I dont have those particualar skills... or the spelling ones either

) I would like to say one thing in my defence... that the way I was looking at the crime was from the point of view that you often find in a court of law. Justice is blind and so all angles are examined. Again I apologise if anything I said in the lost posts... or in this or any furture posts cause anyone personal distress.

Thank you wayfriend for at least understanding what I was trying to say.

I would like to correct something I said in one of the lost posts... on re-reading the chapter again (as i was asked to do) I discovered that I was wrong when I said that TC had told Lena he wanted to be alone. It was in fact Lena who offered to take TC somewhere were he could be alone. (3 times in as many paragraphs) He only consented to go. But I dont mean to imply anything by this just to correct my mistake. ( I do make them

)

Anyway... I have had further thoughts on this subject, and although I risk the rath of some I would like to post them and see what others think. At the beginning of the Illearth war TC says that he new why he did it....

[/quote]The health which the land had given him had taken him by surprise. After months of impotence and repressed fury, he had not been prepared for the sudden rush of his vitality.

pg 16 P/B addition

Which goes towards the theory that TC didnt plan it, wasnt actually out to hurt Lena, Didnt plan the rape at all. Just that it was a physical response to the situation he found himself in.

I have also been playing around with the idea that todays rapists are treated like the lepers of old. After doing their time they come out into our community and they are considered by most as undesirable (much as TC was for being a leper) They are not tollerated in our towns, neighbourhoods and certainly not as our next door neighbours!!! They are 'unclean' untrustworthy and certainly not someone we would like to touch or pass the time of day with. Much as the lepers of old they are shunned by society... and rightfully so. Leppers only had the misfortune of having a disease... Rapists (the ones who actually did it) deserve our rath.

I was trying to think of this in terms of TC. and found some refrence that helped in TIW when TC is talking to Troy...

The one thing that no Leper can afford is to let his mind wander. If he wants to stay alive . As soon as he stops concentrating, and starts thinking about how he's going to make a better life for himself, or starts dreaming about how his life was befor he got sick, or about what he would do if he got cured, or even if people stopped adhorring lepers' - then he is as good as dead.

pg 122 p/b

perhaps in some unconcious way it was TC trying to get the people around him to treat him in the way that lepers should be treated (in his mind) and so give him that device to help him to stay sane.

I am no closer to understanding why the rape was necessary to the books. Except that it was the very first massive image that our hero was going to be an anti-hero? Could it also have been placed at the beggining so that by the end we have come to a place where a rapist saves the land? I dont know!!!

judith

disclaimer: The above are just the ramblings of my mind and in no way should be considered my final conclusions on the subject.

Post by **Wildwood** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:38 pm

"The health which the land had given him had taken him by surprise. After months of impotence and repressed fury, he had not been prepared for the sudden rush of his vitality." TIW
Which goes towards the theory that TC didnt plan it, wasnt actually out to hurt Lena, Didnt plan the rape at all. Just that it was a physical response to the situation he found himself in.

I agree with that Judith. But I dont think any thought, concious or subconcious was made when TC raped Lena. My opinion is that he was overwhelmed by the land and the feelings that were rushing back to him. Feelings he hadn't had in a very long time. Lena had nothing to do with the rape other than that she was there. She was accessible and easy to overcome. He used her to take out his frustration and pain and overload of sensations.
I have a feeling this scene may have been no deeper than that. A way for TC to vent his emotions, and show how utterly human and falliable he is.
That he was, indeed, no Berek Halfhand!

Just my 2 cents, take 'em however you want to!

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 12:38 am

Well, according to the author, this scene was intended to show that TC was a two edged sword, and that he could commit a crime serious enough to affect generations of people...as well as have a great power for good, as is shown later in the series (I know you're not far into the books, so won't spoil you, Wildwood.)

And those are my two cents.

Post by **judith** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:04 am

Well I would say that that 4 cents is worth alot!

It was always my first impression that the rape was purely a physical responce from TC and that no thought was involved on his part befor or durring the act. So in that I agree with you wildwood!

It has been interesting to throw around some ideas about what happened and why and it is quite amazing how much can be read into a couple of paragraphs. Its obviously a subject that brings out some strong emotions.

I like the image that you mentioned, Duchess of Malfi,

according to the author, this scene was intended to show that TC was a two edged sword, and that he could commit a crime serious enough to affect generations of people...as well as have a great power for good,

Of course SRD would be able to nail it like that... such a perfect discription of what it was about. (after all he wrote it!) Thank you for shareing that.

judith

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:03 am

Wayfriend wrote:
Let me try saying it another way. I don't understand why all the things you point out as making Lena responsible make her responsible.

mmm .. i would if I could answer this but I fear that its just not possible

way wrote:I wouldn't say she was responsible (at fault, or guilty) if she had done a striptease, vowed to be his sex slave forever, dropped two viagra in his wine, and whispered 'take me, take me' in his ear all night. Because even those things are not an invitation to a rape.

precisely .. and I couldnt agree with you more

but as you seem to be saying .. "you wouldnt say she was responsible" I was not directing my initial post on this thread to anything you said .. because there were those who were saying just this ..

Hence I personally found it a reprehensible connection those actions Lena had taken to the ultiamte action TC took.

Post by **Rivenrock** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:27 am

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:31 am

judith wrote:I would like to say one thing in my defence... that the way I was looking at the crime was from the point of view that you often find in a court of law. Justice is blind and so all angles are examined.

Not entirely sure what this means . but it sounds like you are talking the point of view that is taken by a cheap defence attorney in a court of law. Which has little to do with justice if this is your overall argument imo

Again I apologise if anything I said in the lost posts... or in this or any furture posts cause anyone personal distress ...

Anyway... I have had further thoughts on this subject, and although I risk the rath of some I would like to post them and see what others think.

Sweety I wouldnt be worried about the "wrath of some"

There is no wrath intended for you. Just because I cannot agree with your pov does not imply i mean wrath upon you!! If you have an open mind you may benefit from all views not just those that foster your own opinion..

[quote=''Judith of the book"]The health which the land had given him had taken him by surprise. After months of impotence and repressed fury, he had not been prepared for the sudden rush of his vitality [/quote].

Judith wrote:Which goes towards the theory that TC didnt plan it, wasnt actually out to hurt Lena, Didnt plan the rape at all.

I dont believe anyone ever suggested that the rape was premeditated .. I know I never did.

Judith wrote:Just that it was a physical response to the situation he found himself in.

well that is subtely different. Was TC's rape of Lena just a physical response to some external or internal stimuli?? On some subjective level clearly yes .. a response to the health of the Land, a response to his anger and betrayal. However, TC's response was not without the vital element of his own volition! It was yet a choice .. a choice he made in response to his anger at the temptation of health and vitality. A choice he made under his own volition to act wrongly! To commit a crime!

Judith wrote:I have also been playing around with the idea that todays rapists are treated like the lepers of old. After doing their time they come out into our community and they are considered by most as undesirable (much as TC was for being a leper)

FYI .. very few rapists actually "do time" .. most are not even reported .. and many get reduced sentences of "indecent assault" etc.. Many rapists get away with their crime .. and for those who are reported, taken to court and found guilty and convicted .. and then given a term of incarceration .. may well not be tolerated on their release .. but I wager with Privacy Laws as strict as they are today .. many are absorbed back into society with the rest of society none the wiser but I am sure there are some who meet with resistance.

Judith wrote:They are not tollerated in our towns, neighbourhoods and certainly not as our next door neighbours!!! They are 'unclean' untrustworthy and certainly not someone we would like to touch or pass the time of day with. Much as the lepers of old they are shunned by society... and rightfully so. Leppers only had the misfortune of having a disease... Rapists (the ones who actually did it) deserve our rath.

I do not believe that lepers of old were rightly shunned .. it is abhorrent to me that ignorance and suspicion lead to this kind of behaviour and response. Particularly where it was clear that leperosy was not contagious. Where it was that is slightly more defensible.

Judith wrote:perhaps in some unconcious way it was TC trying to get the people around him to treat him in the way that lepers should be treated (in his mind) and so give him that device to help him to stay sane.

thats a genuinely interesting point!

Post by **wayfriend** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:23 pm

Rivenrock wrote:WAYFRIEND!! Reread our posts ...

I admit that I have become confused about who said what when. My last response was to Skyweir, not you, Riv, not that I indicated this in any way, and looking back I think I did not see that Skyweir was just quoting someone else.

Okay, I'm equivocating: I totally messed this up. There! Apologies offered all around...

Oh, and damn the server move. This thread really got abused.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:16 am

no worries waymate

Post by **judith** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:59 am

sky... HONEY....

If you have an open mind you may benefit from all views not just those that foster your own opinion..

right back at ya!!!

Anyway... I happen to believe that it is very important that justice is blind. Have you ever known anyone who was wrongly accused of rape? It does happen. And if defence attorneys didnt discuss the actions of the victim in their case then innocent men would be incarcerated purely on the words of victims.It is necessary in all crime to look at every motive and every action... innocent or not... to find out the facts in the case. Finding the truth... in my opinion,is the fastest way to JUSTICE!

I never said that Lena was to blame for the rape. That was not my point. My point was... in Lena's innocent way she put herself in a possition of danger. She did not do it on purpose... she was innocent. I did not mean that she commited any crime... she was innocent. All I meant to do was to look at her actions leading up to the rape and how they affected what happened and why it happened at that particular time.

I dont believe anyone ever suggested that the rape was premeditated .. I know I never did.

really?

However, TC's response was not without the vital element of his own volition! It was yet a choice .. a choice he made in response to his anger at the temptation of health and vitality. A choice he made under his own volition to act wrongly! To commit a crime!

Isnt that just a fancy smancy way of saying that he chose to rape Lena. Doesent that act of making a choice mean that he thought about it and then acted on it? I dont think he made a choice... I think he acted without thinking, followed the impulse of his own body with no thought at all.

FYI .. very few rapists actually "do time" .. most are not even reported .. and many get reduced sentences of "indecent assault" etc.. Many rapists get away with their crime .. and for those who are reported, taken to court and found guilty and convicted .. and then given a term of incarceration .. may well not be tolerated on their release .. but I wager with Privacy Laws as strict as they are today .. many are absorbed back into society with the rest of society none the wiser but I am sure there are some who meet with resistance.

In the world you live in is there no sexual offenders lists? No freedom of information act. No jungle drums or grapevine??? I agree that it is a bad thing that few rapes are reported, that few rapists do time. But perhaps that has alot to do with the fact that 90% of rape kits are never even reviewed. Alas I live in a very imperfect world.

I was speaking, in my likening rapists to lepers... of a general image. This is how 'society would treat a rapist if they new one' this is how they 'treated lepers if they new one' kinda thing. If you would re-read my post I think you will find that I did not say that lepers were rightfully shunned. I also believe it was adhorrent the way they were treated.

They are 'unclean' untrustworthy and certainly not someone we would like to touch or pass the time of day with. Much as the lepers of old they are shunned by society... and rightfully so.

The 'they' I was referring to at the end there, was the rapist not the leper.

Anyway...
I found this lovely quote in The Illearth War the other night and will put it down here for everyones enjoyment.

Troy to Covenant discussing the councils view of the crime that Covenant had commited...They made excuses for you. They told me that not all crimes are commited by evil people. They told me that sometimes a good man does ill because of the pain in his soul. Like Trell. And Mhorum told me that the blade of your Unbelief cuts both ways.

judith

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8