Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8

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Re: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8

Post by wayfriend »

I really need to respond to this, if only to demonstrate that there can be different interpretations of the same passage.

I never threw the book. I'm not a thrower by nature. But, then again, I didn't read this passage and become astoundingly offended. I think this is a reflection of what reading I had already done before I read the LFB - if I had only lived on light fantasy fare, I could see how this might be shocking. But I had already read, say, Dhalgren. I'm not saying that I'm into festishist material (I'm not) nor am I inured to pain and violence (I almost choked on Forbidden Knowledge). I would say, though, that I was prepared to encounter 'bad' characters with an open mind, and was willing to suspend judgement. And this wasn't the worst thing a supposedly sympathetic character had done in the scope of my experiences.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:Why does Covenant rape Lena?... Maybe all the build up hate that he's been feeling for himself, the world, the people around him and his town who despise him, because of that hate, he felt compelled to imflict the same style of hate on someone else, someone pure, virginal, happy, he wanted to inflict the same pain he's recieved on someone who was like him. ...
Really? I would not go even close to that far.

Hormones are a powerful thing. Their sudden reassertion would be overwhelming, especially when you don't see it coming. It takes away reason and judgement. Imagine going from 6 years old to 18 in an instant, from a physiological, not intellectual, point of view. Bam!

If you need more of an excuse to that, consider, then, Covenant's absolute need to have it be a dream. It didn't feel like a dream. But it had to be, or else he was crazy. I'm not saying that rape becomes okay in a dream. I'm saying that when you feel like your sanity is shredding, and you cannot trust your mind or your senses, you're not running on all cylinders. Your not ready to handle that rush of male hormones; your already askew.

Pile on that the pressure of being a savior. This was telegraphed by Donaldson very effectively in the previous pages. On top of intellectual insanity and hormonal insanity, there's feelings of being manipulated and pressured and unknowns all around.

It doesn't have to be about, "I'm dreaming so I can rape someone". It can be about "I'm all screwed up and this girl is trigging things I cannot control in this state".

I really do not think that Covenant is trying to pay anyone back. He's not trying to hate anyone for how someone hated him. At the most, what we have is a man whose driven to the edge by, in part, Lena's willingness to treat him as hero, and allow him anything he wants. In a way, he has power over this girl. So in his anger he puts this power on and tries it out for size. "Oh yeah, am I great now?!?! Huh?!?!"

He doesn't want to be a hero. So in his passion he acts the scoundrel. It's an act of rebellion against a Land he doesn't want.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:Why does Covenant have to rape Lena?
I think that in terms of story, this is necessary b/c it lets us all know at the begining that this man is flawed, he has issues, he's not a regular hero, he's just a man, trying to keep on going, to get to the end, whatever that end may be ...
Okay, you obviously have not read further at this time, and so you don't know the significant elements of the plot that descened from this moment. And there are many. In fact, almost all of them.

Yes, Covenant is a regular guy struggling to not be made into a hero.

This is a story about a character who grows, and whose choices as he's growing affect a world. It's specifically and intentionally not about people with typical heroic responses. It's about people who respond from pain and guilt and memory and fear, and hope and kindness and love and respect - in other words, deep characters - and figure out how to make the right choices anyway.

So Covenant has to rape Lena because Covenant has to go be changed by having done it.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:Why does this frustrate so many people, to the point where they throw the book across the room and never come back? (And the corollary: Why did we all stick it out?)
I think the reason that most people throw the book, set it down, whatever they do to kind of get away from this scene is b/c its so vivid ...
Nah. It's because you were sucker-punched!

There're a lot of shallow, violent gore-fests out there. There're stories where bad things people do are described in great detail. No one throws them across the room.

You had only read stories where it's safe to get behind the protagonist and empathise with their point of view, because the payback is only good clean fun. So you walked behind Covenant with your chin sticking out and your eyes in the sky - you weren't prepared for the protagonist lead you over a cliff.

Donaldson writes a tough story. It's not candy. Covenant is going to make choices that come from who he is, and what he's about, and not what's convenient for the adventure. He doesn't say "I will take the ring", he says "@*#& off and solve your own @#^& problems!". And the payback comes from his not keeping this point of view forever.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:And why, oh, why, once Atiaran finds out what Covenant has done to his daughter, why does she not just let Triock kill him?
I think thats an easy answer, she doesn't allow his death b/c it would nullify the sacrifice that Lena has made for the greater good. Though Atiaran has so much hate for this man who has taken something pure and destroyed that, she feels she must continue the quest for the greater good, the land as a whole needs healing, and she doesn't yet know his true purpose, all she knows is that she's been given the task of taking him forward as far as she can.
Yes, but there's more.

She's wise and she's humble. She knows it's not her call to make. So she doesn't punish him, but she makes dang sure that he gets to the Lords - whose job it is.

And she's of the Land. She's been to Revelstone. She's been taught down into her bones that an emotional response is a bad choice. She remember's that the greatest warrior doesn't have to kill.

- - - - -

Hope you didn't mind my reply. It's not specifically to you, just a way to frame an alternate pov.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Yes, Wayfriend, well said.
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Post by matrixman »

Terrific summation, Wayfriend! I agree with your thoughts.

Gives me an excuse not to have to think up something to say myself. :mrgreen:
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Re: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8

Post by Guest »

I really need to respond to this, if only to demonstrate that there can be different interpretations of the same passage.

I never threw the book. I'm not a thrower by nature. But, then again, I didn't read this passage and become astoundingly offended. I think this is a reflection of what reading I had already done before I read the LFB - if I had only lived on light fantasy fare, I could see how this might be shocking. But I had already read, say, Dhalgren. I'm not saying that I'm into festishist material (I'm not) nor am I inured to pain and violence (I almost choked on Forbidden Knowledge). I would say, though, that I was prepared to encounter 'bad' characters with an open mind, and was willing to suspend judgement. And this wasn't the worst thing a supposedly sympathetic character had done in the scope of my experiences.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:Why does Covenant rape Lena?... Maybe all the build up hate that he's been feeling for himself, the world, the people around him and his town who despise him, because of that hate, he felt compelled to imflict the same style of hate on someone else, someone pure, virginal, happy, he wanted to inflict the same pain he's recieved on someone who was like him. ...
Really? I would not go even close to that far.

Hormones are a powerful thing. Their sudden reassertion would be overwhelming, especially when you don't see it coming. It takes away reason and judgement. Imagine going from 6 years old to 18 in an instant, from a physiological, not intellectual, point of view. Bam!

If you need more of an excuse to that, consider, then, Covenant's absolute need to have it be a dream. It didn't feel like a dream. But it had to be, or else he was crazy. I'm not saying that rape becomes okay in a dream. I'm saying that when you feel like your sanity is shredding, and you cannot trust your mind or your senses, you're not running on all cylinders. Your not ready to handle that rush of male hormones; your already askew.

Pile on that the pressure of being a savior. This was telegraphed by Donaldson very effectively in the previous pages. On top of intellectual insanity and hormonal insanity, there's feelings of being manipulated and pressured and unknowns all around.

It doesn't have to be about, "I'm dreaming so I can rape someone". It can be about "I'm all screwed up and this girl is trigging things I cannot control in this state".

I really do not think that Covenant is trying to pay anyone back. He's not trying to hate anyone for how someone hated him. At the most, what we have is a man whose driven to the edge by, in part, Lena's willingness to treat him as hero, and allow him anything he wants. In a way, he has power over this girl. So in his anger he puts this power on and tries it out for size. "Oh yeah, am I great now?!?! Huh?!?!"

He doesn't want to be a hero. So in his passion he acts the scoundrel. It's an act of rebellion against a Land he doesn't want.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:Why does Covenant have to rape Lena?
I think that in terms of story, this is necessary b/c it lets us all know at the begining that this man is flawed, he has issues, he's not a regular hero, he's just a man, trying to keep on going, to get to the end, whatever that end may be ...
Okay, you obviously have not read further at this time, and so you don't know the significant elements of the plot that descened from this moment. And there are many. In fact, almost all of them.

Yes, Covenant is a regular guy struggling to not be made into a hero.

This is a story about a character who grows, and whose choices as he's growing affect a world. It's specifically and intentionally not about people with typical heroic responses. It's about people who respond from pain and guilt and memory and fear, and hope and kindness and love and respect - in other words, deep characters - and figure out how to make the right choices anyway.

So Covenant has to rape Lena because Covenant has to go be changed by having done it.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:Why does this frustrate so many people, to the point where they throw the book across the room and never come back? (And the corollary: Why did we all stick it out?)
I think the reason that most people throw the book, set it down, whatever they do to kind of get away from this scene is b/c its so vivid ...
Nah. It's because you were sucker-punched!

There're a lot of shallow, violent gore-fests out there. There're stories where bad things people do are described in great detail. No one throws them across the room.

You had only read stories where it's safe to get behind the protagonist and empathise with their point of view, because the payback is only good clean fun. So you walked behind Covenant with your chin sticking out and your eyes in the sky - you weren't prepared for the protagonist lead you over a cliff.

Donaldson writes a tough story. It's not candy. Covenant is going to make choices that come from who he is, and what he's about, and not what's convenient for the adventure. He doesn't say "I will take the ring", he says "@*#& off and solve your own @#^& problems!". And the payback comes from his not keeping this point of view forever.
FizbansTalking_Hat wrote:And why, oh, why, once Atiaran finds out what Covenant has done to his daughter, why does she not just let Triock kill him?
I think thats an easy answer, she doesn't allow his death b/c it would nullify the sacrifice that Lena has made for the greater good. Though Atiaran has so much hate for this man who has taken something pure and destroyed that, she feels she must continue the quest for the greater good, the land as a whole needs healing, and she doesn't yet know his true purpose, all she knows is that she's been given the task of taking him forward as far as she can.
Yes, but there's more.

She's wise and she's humble. She knows it's not her call to make. So she doesn't punish him, but she makes dang sure that he gets to the Lords - whose job it is.

And she's of the Land. She's been to Revelstone. She's been taught down into her bones that an emotional response is a bad choice. She remember's that the greatest warrior doesn't have to kill.

- - - - -

Hope you didn't mind my reply. It's not specifically to you, just a way to frame an alternate pov.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Just thought everyone might want to know that SRD did tell us at dinner why he used rape in the Chrons. :) So when the interview is up on his website, you will all get the definative answer from the author himself. :)
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Post by Blue_Spawn »

It is said that the author and the work he/she makes are two absolutely seperate entities. So, whatever answer he gives, may not be the DEFINITE answer. Even though he's the creator of the story. As wrong as that may sound, it is true.
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Post by Skyweir »

Lets be absolutely clear from the onset: we are talking about the RAPE of Lena!

RAPE is by definition in both legal and lay terms NON-CONSENSUAL sexual penetration of person by another. If the sexual penetrator genuinely believes that the other person has given consent then there is no rape.

However, the sexual penetrator’s belief, would need to be reasonable and rational. The belief in consent must be based on some implied invitation to sexual intimacy that can be evidenced from the behaviour of the victim. In the case of TC it is very difficult to accept he genuinely believed Lena consented to his sexual violence. If TC held any semblance of such a belief why did he strike her hard across the face and why tear her clothing from her? We read that Lena was in fear of her life and found herself paralysed with that fear. Any argument that Lena provoked or encouraged sexual violence is flawed.

Lena’s infatuation with TC does not imply consent or even make her complicit or to blame for the violent sexual attack perpetrated by TC.. If we accepted that sexual assault under those circumstances was not a crime then we would be giving carte blanche to rape, who would ever be convicted of rape with an excuse of "she had a crush on me and was nice to me, so I raped her"? If we assign Lena blame or even a portion of blame based on suggestions that she provoked the attack through simply being young, attractive and kind or even infatuated with this stranger, then this implies that people can share guilt for serious crimes simply through the existence of naivety, beauty and good nature.

In rape cases today, rape victims are still portrayed by defence teams, as inviting rape or in accepting some portion of the blame because of the their manner of dress or any ill advised behaviour; despite the fact that it is clear that the rape victim in no way desired or attempted to initiate an act of sexual violence. For centuries men have attempted to negate some portion of their blame for guilt and shift this blame to the woman simply for being.

If you were a member of a jury standing in judgement over TC having heard all the facts, it would be very difficult not to accept that TC was guilty of rape. Whatever mitigating factors we might suggest, in order to have sympathy with the human nature of TC, this does not negate his guilt. It allows us only to understand him as a human being. The most telling factor of all in relation to TC’s guilt comes from TC himself. TC is all too aware of the misfortunes in his life and the events that have shaped his personality and nature but he is never on any occasion tempted to say that these events excused him from guilt or responsibiltiy. TC knows he is guilty of a serious crime; a violation, and none of the events that lead him to that day on the “far side of the Mithil, in any way excuse what he did.

Understanding or even empathising with a person’s actions does not excuse those actions. Even good people are capable of doing bad things and, as we all must, they must accept responsibility for those actions.


Did TC have no other choice but to rape? Hell yes! He raped Lena because he could! He did it because he wanted to, he was angry and determined to express that anger regardless of Lena’s consent or otherwise.

SRD does not present the rape of Lena as an act akin to a man “coming on” to, or merely responding to, a slew of mixed signals from a 15 year old girl. SRD also in my opinion, does not portray Lena as “asking to be RAPED” or “looking for it”. . To suggest this now clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of the concept of RAPE. On the contrary, SRD portrays her as innocent, nubile, sure yes, and naïve and vulnerable. All the attributes we would expect in a resident in an innocent and pure land.

To TC, clearly Lena’s consent was IRRELEVANT, an element no different to any rapist. No one is to blame for raping Lena but the person who raped her. It was a “choice” that TC made. It was not a “choice” that Lena was a party to.

To Lena, it is clear that there was no time afforded her TO CONSENT. Immediately prior to being raped she was defending him verbally when without warning and completely out of the blue he struck her hard across her face! Forced her to the ground and in a depraved intent to deprive Lena of choice, consent and her freedom and use her as a receptacle for his bitterness and contempt! His orgasm was one of extreme mastery and subjugation!! He lauds this conquest and victory! TC achieves his oh so triumphant climax by overpowering, immobilising, denigrating and subduing a defenceless 15 year old girl.

This was not an act of self-defence or provocation. It is ludicrous to me to consider Lena’s acts of kindness, interest or even intrigue and infatuation as having the intent of sexual provocation. What goes on in TC’s mind is not a factor that Lena can possibly be responsible for.

Judith you have explained you seek “an answer” to what you seem to view as a mysterious and puzzling conundrum regarding TC’s rape of LENA. That you “know there is an answer out there somewhere” but just haven’t found it yet! The puzzling mystery arises because you are looking for some reason in terms of excuse or even looking for some vindication for TC. You haven’t found it because there is none. TC is not an evil man but he did commit an evil act.

No individual is purely good or bad. We are all capable of good and evil and the final judgement of a person’s individual worth is whether the good that they have done outweighs the evil. I judge TC to be a good man but I am not blind to the evil that he, as any of us are capable of.

The paradox of the white gold wielder is that he had the power to save or damn the land. Lord foul was betting that TC would damn the land, the Creator hoped that he would be the land’s salvation. TC often believed that he was not up to the challenge and the rape of Lena must have confirmed to Lord Foul’s his faith in choosing TC.

Yes as you say, TC had a hell of a recent history, endured great pain and suffering both physically, emotionally, socially and being afflicted with impotence was a cruel blow levelled by a ruthless and unjust disease aimed at his total surrender to despair.

Leprosy stripped TC of much of his human dignity and necessary human and social contact, leaving him alone, outcast, unclean and bitter. But above all this and arguably the most acute deprivation was that of his total emasculation.

When he sees young girls in Town he resentfully perceives their poses as provocative, he remembers Joan in a nightgown he had bought and recalls her breasts as “circles of invitation under the thin fabric. His heart cried, Joan! How could you do it?” he recalls her cruel abandonment with bitterness. SRD describes TC’s shoulders bracing “like a strangler” and he suppresses the memory he had just conjured. How do a strangler’s shoulders brace?? TC is unquestionably an angry embittered man and he of all people has real cause for that anger!

And notwithstanding all that, none of his suffering excuses him from the rape of Lena, nor does it mitigate his sole responsibility for committing this act. His response to all his despair and betrayal doesnt justify his attack against Lena. She was not responsible for his rage or his suffering.

If we claim Lena is guilty or even partly to blame, for choosing to remain with him, aid him or care about him then we are implying that she is guilty for being young and naïve. Was she responsible for not "knowing" her affection and kindnesses may be interpreted by TC as "provocation" for rape?

At the end of the day, I wager TC never saw her acts of kindness as provocation for his rape of her either. He did not rape her because he was provoked. He raped her because he wanted to.
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Post by Furls Fire »

Amen, Sky
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by matrixman »

Awesome post, Skyweir! I stand behind your words.

Unfortunately, it looks like we've lost last week's posts from Rivenrock, Wayfriend and judith due to that dbase crash. They had a great discussion going on this subject! :( :(
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Post by duchess of malfi »

For those who were wondering, SRD himself sees this as a horrid crime...but I do not want to put words in his mouth, so you will all have to wait for the interview to hear exactly what he has to say about it. :)
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Post by Guest »

Yeah right. :) You're just enjoying making us wait.
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Post by Guest »

Now, you state that rape is wrong. You know that your own moral fibre opposes it. But how strong is your opposition? How do you know that NO circumstances exist under which you would rape someone if you've never questioned it, searched it? Confronting one's own inner Despiser is a terrible thing, and rest assured, we all have snakes in our personal Edens. Covenant raped Lena. He knew, for the rest of the story, that it was something that was utterly repugnant to him - that it was something he'd never actually want to do. He'd questioned it, tested it in a "dream".
Okay firstly, I never needed to question whether rape was something I'm opposed to, as soon as I comprehended that rape constituted violating someone else's free will for no justifiable reason. While I had not ever sat and pondered 'rape' per se, I certainly had, over a long period of time, considered the concepts of free will, freedom, rights and justifiable violence.

Secondly, can you find me a reference in the actual text that you think in any way shows Covenant to be thinking during the rape in any way that could be described as 'questioning' or 'testing'? Your idea is interesting in theory, but rereading the scene as it was written renders it ridiculous (imo) to argue that Covenant considered his actions at all until after the moment when he realised that Lena was lying under him bloody and sobbing.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

And you are??? :)
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Post by Guest »

I can't believe that post was lost! That took SO LONG to write. Argh! :x
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..
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Post by Skyweir »

it only recognises your home addy ..
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Post by Skyweir »

who are the guests above .. the first guest .. and who is being quoted?
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..
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Post by matrixman »

Rivenrock, you have my sympathy concerning your lost post. It was very good! I know it takes a lot of time and effort to craft a good, serious post. I'm very disappointed by this database fiasco, too.
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Post by wayfriend »

I am one of the guests above. My post is in here twice, as guest and as me.

There's been some flakeyness on this server. Posts are missing in this thread. Other posts have been missing and then have come back. And, in this case, a post which I had accidentally posted as guest, which someone (who never told me who he/she was) fixed it for me, and now both posts are here (and I hope that they say the same thing).

Bizarre.

Skyweir:

I don't think that anyone here, or the author, has taken the position that Lena consented to rape. I don't disagree with anything you have said - I just wonder why your saying it ,as if you are responding to some posts which posited that she consented.

If this helps, I know that for me, the question is, was Covenant acting or reacting, was he evil or confused, was there malice or just rage.

There is no question in my mind about right and wrong - it was wrong. There is no question in my mind about consent or refusal - it was refused. There is no question in my mind about deserved or undeserved - it was undeserved. There is no question in my mind about permitted or not permitted - it was not permitted.

Also, I realize that odds are that more than one person in ten who posted in this thread was sexually assaulted at some point. I try to be sensitive. I would never ask that anyone believe that there is anything okay about that.
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