Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 7 & 8

[MsMary]

Years before I read TCTC, a friend told me something about the books. He said it was about a man who gets transferred to an alien world, "and he thinks that it isn't real, and that what he does doesn't matter, so one of his first acts was to rape a girl." That was one of the reasons I was turned off from reading the books for years and years, but I also don't buy that explanation. TC shows no evidence at any time that he thinks it "doesn't matter" that he raped Lena because it "isn't real."

At the same time, I don't have a good explanation for why he did rape her. I can't excuse him for this act. And, sorry, I don't buy the Raver theory at all. There is no evidence at all that a Raver was involved.

Some of your suggestions that I took notice of:

she tells him that his reality is unreal, and that his dream is reality. Without realizing it, she challenges his sanity just as surely as Lord Foul did. And so he attacks her.

I would have to agree with Mhorham and Nerdanel about TC. He committed the rape - not a raver. I always saw it as this way: Here is Lena, a beautiful young girl who no less than worships TC. Adoration oozes from her and TC cannot handle it after all the months of human rejection because of his leporsy. Also, the fact that he has been impotent for so long and now can suddenly "perform", it becomes more than he can control. TC simply loses control of himself. Unfortunately, Lena pays the price.

Most people have a bit of darkness in them -- jealousy, anger, spite, whatever. And most manage to keep it locked up. It's when they lose control when bad things like murder and rape happen.

All of these are good comments, but they don't explain to me really why he loses control. I guess I think a person should be able to control himself.

~MsMary~

[amanibhavam]

All of these are good comments, but they don't explain to me really why he loses control. I guess I think a person should be able to control himself.

I think nobody here wants to find an excuse for Covenant. He doesn't need one. He is flawed, a sinner. And he spends some ten years of his life, five and a half books and finally his own life to redeem his "original sin".
Sorry if I sound to passionate about TC. I just think none of us would've done much better in his place.

[Lord Mhoram]

Heres how I see it. What Covenant did was a terrible crime, but it is ALMOST different from a crime here. Why?

Because he a) thought he was in an imaginary land where nothing he did mattered. Its like making a stupid mistake in a dream, which is exactly what he thought he did. b)Covenant was overwhelmed. Why? Well, its because hes in some strange world where his disease doesnt exist. Not only that, but he is expected so save this world that he doesnt even think exists.

Then, this is the last straw, theres this beautiful teenage girl who adores him, and thinks he is god, or Berek who is the closes thing the people of the Land have to god, or an idol.

Now, heres what confuses me, even w/all of this evidence, why does he go so far as to rape her? Does someone smarter here know why?

[Vain]

I figure that the Star Wars version of The Dark Side was responsible. If we accept TC isn't normally violent with rapist tendencies, then something else must be to blame.

[Guest]

I don't think that anyone here is trying to find excuses. What people ARE trying to find are reasons. In a lot of ways, what happens between Tom and Lena just doesn't make sense. So people are just trying to figure out what happened.

[amanibhavam]

okay. let's list it all again:

you are a male (:twisted:); you get leprosy; your wife divorces you; she takes your child away and blames you for it; you spend monthy in a hospital where you are slapped in the face daily with images of rotting flesh and the futility of any hope for you; you spend months in your home in the perfect isolation of excommunication; you're humiliated every day by being deprived of the simplest possibilities of doing something for yourself (I mean paying your own bills etc.); you are translated into a different world where the first thing you receive is the greatest scorn and despite of your life from a god who evidently wants to destroy you; then you find yourself in a place from where the only hope of escape is the frail hope that you are dreaming and dreams ought to end someday; you meet a girl who is sweet, beautiful, innocent, who clearly adores you and with one swift stroke wipes your disease away with all the months of striving, despair and self-discipline along with it; you spend half a day in her near vicinity and then half a night lying in her lap!; you get an erection (sorry, girls, but that's it) after long months of trying to forget that there such things as women; you feel that every innocent word of her is just a mockery of your ignorance; you cannot distinguish between fear, grief, hope, rage and madness

is it really so unbelievable the he snaps?

[Vain]

is it really so unbelievable the he snaps?

I think we can all agree that in some manner, TC does snap. However, I'm just not convinced that snapping leads to rape. Although I may just contradict myself. Need to think some more

[MsMary]

I agree with you, Vain. I don't think rape had to be the inevitable outcome for someone in TC's position.

What Covenant did was a terrible crime, but it is ALMOST different from a crime here. Why? Because he a) thought he was in an imaginary land where nothing he did mattered. Its like making a stupid mistake in a dream, which is exactly what he thought he did.

So you basically agree with the premise of the person who first told me about TCTC, Lord Mhoram?

~MsMary~

[Lord Mhoram]

Exactly. Your friend had it right, thats why he did it...or sort of why he did it. If theres any excuse, its that he he didnt think anything was real. But even if you didnt think something was real, why would you do what he did?

Let me put it this way. How many people who rape a girl they met in a dream? Not many Ill wager. We all know Covenant wasnt a pervert, but he just snapped....very confusing.

[Guest]

All I know is that if a guy did something like that around here where I live he wouldn't just be charged with first degree rape, he would also be charged with statutory rape, and possibly child molestation. It's not just the rape in and of itself that makes what he did so terrible, it's also that he did it to someone who would legally be considered a child both in our world and the Land. No man that I know would do this. The "overwhelmed with sensory input" explanation is much too easy for me. I don't believe it. There has to be more tha nthat going on. What, I'm not sure. But I think that there's more.

[pitchwife]

So if he is dreaming .. do you judge someone for dreaming that he raped a girl?
I think we all agree that you can think and dream as you please, as long as you don't carry out the thoughts.

So if it's real and he snapped .. does that make him eligible to plee not-guilty on basis of temporary insanity?

- pitch

[amanibhavam]

I might very well remain alone with my slightly unorthodox opinion here, but hey. What I feel is that most here are embarassed about TC and his sin because of its sexual nature, because rape itself became demonized in our society. Rape is heinous, that's for sure, but to what extent would it have been less heinous if TC just had beaten up Lena to a pulp? Or, horribile dictu, had murdered her?

As somebody has noted before rape is just a way of brutalizing Lena, it's about control, about "now I'll show you who you are mocking with your innocence; are you not afraid of me? I bet you will be in a minute" attitude.

I do not think TC is a "pervert" in any way. He is guilty, he commits something very bad. What he finds out later is that it's not excuses that he needs, but to give a meaning to his guilt.

[pitchwife]

Amanibhavam,
You're not alone, my thinking is more or less along your lines...
In my moral scale murder is worse.
But here it is not just the rape act itself, although Covenant does not know it yet. The rape had implications that carried on for the rest of Lena's life. That's what makes it worse than beating Lena senseless.

My question is: why does SRD choose this particular crime for Covenant? Obviously he sets the stage for it, describing Covenant's sexual frustration and impotence, and then contrasting that with Lena's innocence and the Land's potency.

If he was feeling rage, the most intuitive reaction imo is violence: beating her up. I feel that the rape reaction is a little forced, plausible but forced.

-pitch

[amanibhavam]

As I said earlier: SRD needs a way to conceive Elena.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yea, and he did it w/style.

[pitchwife]

I don't buy that.
I'm sure that Lena would have let herself be seduced by Covenant, and that would have had the same end result...

-pitch

[I am not Joan]

I don't buy it either.

[Vain]

I'm sure that Lena would have let herself be seduced by Covenant, and that would have had the same end result...

That seemed to be the logical conclusion before TC went off the deep end. Would it have had the same impact? Would many events in the future have transpired if it was mutual?

[amanibhavam]

no, because Elena was flawed from birth, and this flaw is the result of the rape

imho, of course

[Vain]

That's what I figured Amy - but would it not have been plausible to have Elena flawed simply because Lena wasn't of age?

The event that I think wouldn't have happened is:

Spoiler

Didn't TC command the Ranyhyn to pay homage/rear to Lena?