Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 13 and 14
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- Lord Mhoram
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Joining the discussion a little late, very interesting points everybody!
Two things I wanted to add:
The meeting of the council of Lords is our first encounter with the political regime in the Land. The High Lord is nominated by the council of Lords and is himself one of it's members. The Lords themselves are graduates of the Loresraat, the Land's educational institute. Any inhabitant of the Land may join the Loresraat, and once they have mastered both sword and staff, they automatically become a Lord. Doesn't this remind you of Aristotle's utopia: "the rule of the wise"?
The sword and the staff are considered the knowledge one needs in order to join the circle of rulers. Both have to do with power, it's physical and spiritual manifestations. But the Lords do not appear as power hungry, to the contrary, they are modest and humble, very unlike the political figures we are used to in our earth. The Lords have a sense of responsibility for the whole population of the land, all its people, all its races, even the animals and the plants, and as Sky noted, the relationship with the environment is of the Lord's main concern. The Lords are extremely virtuous, especially when contrasted with our own democratically elected leaders, who forward interests of thier allies and supporters at the expense of other parts of society.
Vespers is our first meeting with 'organized' worship in the Land, but what is the object of worship? Is it the Land itself, or Earthpower? And how do the people of the Land regard earthpower, do they view it as a god: omnipotent and supernatural; or as science: a logical set of rules that must be discovered and learned?
-pitch
Two things I wanted to add:
The meeting of the council of Lords is our first encounter with the political regime in the Land. The High Lord is nominated by the council of Lords and is himself one of it's members. The Lords themselves are graduates of the Loresraat, the Land's educational institute. Any inhabitant of the Land may join the Loresraat, and once they have mastered both sword and staff, they automatically become a Lord. Doesn't this remind you of Aristotle's utopia: "the rule of the wise"?
The sword and the staff are considered the knowledge one needs in order to join the circle of rulers. Both have to do with power, it's physical and spiritual manifestations. But the Lords do not appear as power hungry, to the contrary, they are modest and humble, very unlike the political figures we are used to in our earth. The Lords have a sense of responsibility for the whole population of the land, all its people, all its races, even the animals and the plants, and as Sky noted, the relationship with the environment is of the Lord's main concern. The Lords are extremely virtuous, especially when contrasted with our own democratically elected leaders, who forward interests of thier allies and supporters at the expense of other parts of society.
Vespers is our first meeting with 'organized' worship in the Land, but what is the object of worship? Is it the Land itself, or Earthpower? And how do the people of the Land regard earthpower, do they view it as a god: omnipotent and supernatural; or as science: a logical set of rules that must be discovered and learned?
-pitch
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Bits and pieces...
The Danger of Group Reads with material this good:I bet there r plenty of other Servants of the Land out there xperiencing the same problem I am. If I try 2 catch up, all of a sudden I find myself 6 chapters ahead of where I'm supposed 2 b. And that makes it tuff 2 keep one's thoughts and posts focused on the given chapters. So I have had 2 back up and reread--and will vehemently try 2 stick 2 the chapters at hand.
Nerdanel made a great into and I love the Duchess' reference 2 ocher via the Beggar 2 the Bloodguard. Now this kinda stuff are the great benefits of a group read--as long as one can keep the chapters at hand. Yes as far as meeting a large and varied group of Land dwellers, being blown away by Revelstone and learning some very important info of the Land and the dangers it faces, these r perhaps the MOST pivotal chapters in the book.
In the previous chapter Covenant talks 2 Foamy of culture shock. As if he hasn't xperienced enuf of it already! In these chapters there is so much info, newness, grandure, emotion mixed with humility that I really don't kno how TC can take it all in w/o going mad! Small wonder he storms back 2 his tower rooms, rips downs the tapestry, throws it off the balcony and shouts "I'm not Berek!" Pushed around by Bannor, mystified by Mhoram, being led back and forth through this tunnel, that hall not even knowing which way is up! Vertigo everywhere! Whew! Then 2 find urself in a huge crystal bowl-like Close--it's like the curtian rising on some play! The lights go down, the etheral Lords appear and u can hear them speaking as if they r right next 2 u, tho u r miles above them. Mindmelding Lords, telepathic Bloodguard. Immortal, sleepless Bloodguard! Yow! Way 2 much!
Yet behind the grand veneer of the Lords Covenant finds frail and humble servants of the Land, somewhat stooped in failure of not mastering what little lore of the Old lords they kno. How can they fight Foul alone? Y has TC brought them this message when any1 can do it? What is so important about the messenger? Can the messenger help them? "Here's the bloody ring!", "I can't use it", I don't know how, "I'm a leper!" "That's why Foul choose me, (I'm impotent)". "You believe this all is a dream?" Lord Osendrea admonishes him. And if this isn't a dream--**the readers think back 2 the rape**--perhaps he isn't impotent, he just doesn't kno it...
back with more soon...
Nerdanel made a great into and I love the Duchess' reference 2 ocher via the Beggar 2 the Bloodguard. Now this kinda stuff are the great benefits of a group read--as long as one can keep the chapters at hand. Yes as far as meeting a large and varied group of Land dwellers, being blown away by Revelstone and learning some very important info of the Land and the dangers it faces, these r perhaps the MOST pivotal chapters in the book.
In the previous chapter Covenant talks 2 Foamy of culture shock. As if he hasn't xperienced enuf of it already! In these chapters there is so much info, newness, grandure, emotion mixed with humility that I really don't kno how TC can take it all in w/o going mad! Small wonder he storms back 2 his tower rooms, rips downs the tapestry, throws it off the balcony and shouts "I'm not Berek!" Pushed around by Bannor, mystified by Mhoram, being led back and forth through this tunnel, that hall not even knowing which way is up! Vertigo everywhere! Whew! Then 2 find urself in a huge crystal bowl-like Close--it's like the curtian rising on some play! The lights go down, the etheral Lords appear and u can hear them speaking as if they r right next 2 u, tho u r miles above them. Mindmelding Lords, telepathic Bloodguard. Immortal, sleepless Bloodguard! Yow! Way 2 much!
Yet behind the grand veneer of the Lords Covenant finds frail and humble servants of the Land, somewhat stooped in failure of not mastering what little lore of the Old lords they kno. How can they fight Foul alone? Y has TC brought them this message when any1 can do it? What is so important about the messenger? Can the messenger help them? "Here's the bloody ring!", "I can't use it", I don't know how, "I'm a leper!" "That's why Foul choose me, (I'm impotent)". "You believe this all is a dream?" Lord Osendrea admonishes him. And if this isn't a dream--**the readers think back 2 the rape**--perhaps he isn't impotent, he just doesn't kno it...
back with more soon...
fall far and well Pilots!
- MsMary
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I know what you mean, danlo. I am sort of just reading, and have been unable to keep up with posting, so when I look at the individual 2 chapter threads, it's hard to keep straight what I am supposed to be commenting on precisely, without overlapping into upcoming chapters.The Danger of Group Reads with material this good:I bet there r plenty of other Servants of the Land out there xperiencing the same problem I am. If I try 2 catch up, all of a sudden I find myself 6 chapters ahead of where I'm supposed 2 b. And that makes it tuff 2 keep one's thoughts and posts focused on the given chapters. So I have had 2 back up and reread--and will vehemently try 2 stick 2 the chapters at hand.
I am enjoying reading everyone else's comments, though.
~MsMary~
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- The Eighth Ward
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irony
I know it has been years since anyone commented here, and I am surprised - given all the discussion about the rape in previous dissections - that no one comments on what is clearly one of the most ironic moments in the whole story.
In Vespers when Mhoram visits TC for the first time and they are discussing the desecration of the moon, the Lord asks TC if his message "accounts for the befouling of the moon"? TC replies:
does anyone feel that maybe, just maybe, TC is in denial about the abuse of Lena at this point? Do you hear Foul laughing, and thinking "No Unbeliever, I leave such desecrations in your capable hands."
In Vespers when Mhoram visits TC for the first time and they are discussing the desecration of the moon, the Lord asks TC if his message "accounts for the befouling of the moon"? TC replies:
"He's showing off - thats all. Just showing us what he can do." Deep in his throat, he cried, Hellfire! Foul! The Wraiths were helpless. What do you do for an encore, rape children?
Spoiler
While we all know that TC owns up to and pays the price many times over for this heinous act,
Spoiler
Is this an early indication of the revelations set forth later in the Chrons and debated at length in other threads, that TC and Foul are essentially one?
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- wayfriend
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Welcome to the watch, Eight.
I certainly think that Covenant's comment to Mhoram was his repressed memory leaking out. (He doesn't really "remember" what he did until he reaches the Plains of Ra: He had done that to Lena - done that? Lena!)
And yes, it certainly bears out the idea that SRD wishes to instill in the reader during LFB, that Covenant might be no better than Lord Foul.
I certainly think that Covenant's comment to Mhoram was his repressed memory leaking out. (He doesn't really "remember" what he did until he reaches the Plains of Ra: He had done that to Lena - done that? Lena!)
And yes, it certainly bears out the idea that SRD wishes to instill in the reader during LFB, that Covenant might be no better than Lord Foul.
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Thank you Wayfriend. I have been here before, as The Seventh Ward. I was making changes to my profile a while back...must have been half asleep because when I was done I could no longer log in under that moniker and all the old posts turned into "Guest" posts.
At this point in the story he does not actually say this to Mhoram - he was thinking it in his mind. I agree that it will take TC time to come to grips with that act. And when he does begin to come to grips with it (IMHO and in spite of his fervent denials) his path to accepting that the Land as real, and important to him, begins.
At this point in the story he does not actually say this to Mhoram - he was thinking it in his mind. I agree that it will take TC time to come to grips with that act. And when he does begin to come to grips with it (IMHO and in spite of his fervent denials) his path to accepting that the Land as real, and important to him, begins.
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- Shuram Gudatetris
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It occurred to me while reading Chapter Fourteen, that SRD was light-years ahead of his time....
Chapter 14: The Council of Lords
Lord Osondrea asked, "How many ships will you need?"
With a glance at Biriniar's upright dignity, Foamfollower contained his humor, and replied simply, "Seven. Perhaps five."
"Can this be done?" Osondrea asked Birinair again, distinctly but without irritation.
The Hearthrall pulled a small tablet and stylus from his robe and began to calculate, muttering to himself.
[/u]
Chapter 14: The Council of Lords
Lord Osondrea asked, "How many ships will you need?"
With a glance at Biriniar's upright dignity, Foamfollower contained his humor, and replied simply, "Seven. Perhaps five."
"Can this be done?" Osondrea asked Birinair again, distinctly but without irritation.
The Hearthrall pulled a small tablet and stylus from his robe and began to calculate, muttering to himself.
[/u]
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Two of my favourite passages from Lord Foul's Bane are from Chapters 13 and 14.
Vespers
Covenant took one look at the yawning gulf of the courtyard and backed away. 'No,' he muttered, 'forget it. I'll just stay here if you don't mind.'
Lord Mhoram regarded him curiously for a moment, but did not challenge his reaction. 'Very well,' he said simply. 'We will go another way.'
I've often wondered at the curiousness and the implications of where these two passages may lead, if one happened to cross reference the other. There seems to be no place to go other than, 'inward' and 'down', and to the Council of Lords as the story dictates. Unless, a third passage were to be found ...The Council of Lords
At Bannor's commanding back, he moved out of the tower, across the courtyard, then inward and down through the ravelled and curiously wrought passages of Revelstone.
The signal changing slowly could mean that this curiously wrought passage turns inward all the way to volume three, and The Power That Preserves - as (red moon, green moon, traffic light for stop, traffic light for go). So if anyone knows where in volume three this passage happens to reappear, then please let me know!from chapter 2 - 'You Cannot Hope'
Without another word, he [the old begger man] turned and moved away. He leaned on his staff like and exhausted prophet, worn out with uttering visions. His staff rang curiously on the sidewalk, as if the wood were harder than cement. [...] The signal changed slowly, but at last it was green his [Covenant] way. He stepped out on to the crosswalk.
- SleeplessOne
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Covenant's appalled response to Bannor's revelations in 'The Council of the Lords' is a wonderful moment in this book.
Covenant can't get his head around the Bloodguard Vow and it's implications.
Sacrificing home, family and intimacy in exchange for the pure service of their Vow, Covenant views the Bloodguard's choice as one of uncompromising extremity that verges on the inhuman.
As is often the case with Covenant, particularly in the early books, he is capable of great insight into others without necessarily turning those same insights inwards; if he were capable of doing so in this chapter he might come to recognise the essential futility of his own 'vow' to the 'laws' of his leprosy.
Covenant can't get his head around the Bloodguard Vow and it's implications.
Sacrificing home, family and intimacy in exchange for the pure service of their Vow, Covenant views the Bloodguard's choice as one of uncompromising extremity that verges on the inhuman.
As is often the case with Covenant, particularly in the early books, he is capable of great insight into others without necessarily turning those same insights inwards; if he were capable of doing so in this chapter he might come to recognise the essential futility of his own 'vow' to the 'laws' of his leprosy.
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SleeplessOne, if your post is in answer or in continuation on themes proposed in my post then I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea what it is you are saying. You would need to expand on your meaning.
Then again, I might suppose that you have absolutely no idea what it is that I was saying. And so I will in turn expand on my meaning some more.
It seems to me at least the passages mentioned show the very essence of fantasy storytelling. SRD at his best. Cunning and tricky. Making us believe and accept the obvious, when really SRD is showing us like Lord Mhoram another way. Another way inward.
I might suppose when Lord Mhoram regards Covenant with curiosity it's because, if I remember rightly, he already knows that Covenant had been to Soaring Woodhelvenin and the staff he carried was a Hirebrand staff, given to him by Baradakas. Why then would Covenant have a fear of heights? This may be what's odd to him.
Then when Covenant and Bannor leave to go to the Council of Lords - as I tried to point out that Covenant walks boldly across the crosswalk - what had changed? What had happened to vanquish his vertigo?
But most importantly, above all else, why are those passages so cunningly hidden in cryptic prose???
I thought this would be fun to explore.
Then again, I might suppose that you have absolutely no idea what it is that I was saying. And so I will in turn expand on my meaning some more.
It seems to me at least the passages mentioned show the very essence of fantasy storytelling. SRD at his best. Cunning and tricky. Making us believe and accept the obvious, when really SRD is showing us like Lord Mhoram another way. Another way inward.
I might suppose when Lord Mhoram regards Covenant with curiosity it's because, if I remember rightly, he already knows that Covenant had been to Soaring Woodhelvenin and the staff he carried was a Hirebrand staff, given to him by Baradakas. Why then would Covenant have a fear of heights? This may be what's odd to him.
Then when Covenant and Bannor leave to go to the Council of Lords - as I tried to point out that Covenant walks boldly across the crosswalk - what had changed? What had happened to vanquish his vertigo?
But most importantly, above all else, why are those passages so cunningly hidden in cryptic prose???
I thought this would be fun to explore.
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Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 13 and 14
Hi Rune - no, I wasn't responding to your post, I would have quoted if so - but perhaps I should have quoted the section of the book that I was talking about (although it seemed relatively clear to me at the time of writing - I had actually been reading that chapter on the day it was bumped, so it was fresh in my mind, if not in the mind of others ..)Rune wrote:SleeplessOne, if your post is in answer or in continuation on themes proposed in my post then I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea what it is you are saying. You would need to expand on your meaning.
Then again, I might suppose that you have absolutely no idea what it is that I was saying. And so I will in turn expand on my meaning some more.
It seems to me at least the passages mentioned show the very essence of fantasy storytelling. SRD at his best. Cunning and tricky. Making us believe and accept the obvious, when really SRD is showing us like Lord Mhoram another way. Another way inward.
I might suppose when Lord Mhoram regards Covenant with curiosity it's because, if I remember rightly, he already knows that Covenant had been to Soaring Woodhelvenin and the staff he carried was a Hirebrand staff, given to him by Baradakas. Why then would Covenant have a fear of heights? This may be what's odd to him.
Then when Covenant and Bannor leave to go to the Council of Lords - as I tried to point out that Covenant walks boldly across the crosswalk - what had changed? What had happened to vanquish his vertigo?
But most importantly, above all else, why are those passages so cunningly hidden in cryptic prose???
I thought this would be fun to explore.
I was ruminating upon the conversation Covenant has with Bannor in 'The Council of the Lords' regarding Bannor's vow; Covenant questions Bannor rigorously about his extreme commitment and seems appalled at Bannor's sacrifices; however to me Bannor's commitment to his Vow has definite echoes of Covenant's own adherence to the laws that govern his management of his leprosy ...
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The relationship between Covenant and Bannor is always fascinating, and I suspect some of the answers to questions I've been asking are rooted in that relationship.SleeplessOne wrote:I was ruminating upon the conversation Covenant has with Bannor in 'The Council of the Lords' regarding Bannor's vow; Covenant questions Bannor rigorously about his extreme commitment and seems appalled at Bannor's sacrifices; however to me Bannor's commitment to his Vow has definite echoes of Covenant's own adherence to the laws that govern his management of his leprosy ...
Theorising about Covenant's bold and uncharacteristic walk across the crosswalk has certain implications to what occurs later in the story at Warrenbridge. When everything in Covenant's vision began to dissolve and become insubstantial, Bannor and the Bloodgaurd became more solid and real. This also echoes the sound made by the old begger man's staff as it rang on the sidewalk - harder than cement!
Bridging gaps not only from one side to another, A to B, but also making connections between what is believable and what is not.
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SleeplessOne wrote:Covenant's appalled response to Bannor's revelations in 'The Council of the Lords' is a wonderful moment in this book.
Covenant can't get his head around the Bloodguard Vow and it's implications.
Sacrificing home, family and intimacy in exchange for the pure service of their Vow, Covenant views the Bloodguard's choice as one of uncompromising extremity that verges on the inhuman.
As is often the case with Covenant, particularly in the early books, he is capable of great insight into others without necessarily turning those same insights inwards; if he were capable of doing so in this chapter he might come to recognise the essential futility of his own 'vow' to the 'laws' of his leprosy.
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Shuram Gudatetris wrote:It occurred to me while reading Chapter Fourteen, that SRD was light-years ahead of his time....
Chapter 14: The Council of Lords
Lord Osondrea asked, "How many ships will you need?"
With a glance at Biriniar's upright dignity, Foamfollower contained his humor, and replied simply, "Seven. Perhaps five."
"Can this be done?" Osondrea asked Birinair again, distinctly but without irritation.
The Hearthrall pulled a small tablet and stylus from his robe and began to calculate, muttering to himself.
[/u]
I can't help but love this...