SON OF A...!!!!!!!
I know. It's my own damn fault for clicking on that link while at work...with bosses nearby...and the volume turned up...and......
Empire Strikes Back was the best, bah to all who disagree
Moderator: aTOMiC
I'm sorry, I've always wanted to do that, especially since Lord Foul's gotten me 3 or 4 times with it.
Won't happen again.
Won't happen again.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Cagliostro
- The Gap Into Spam
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I think Empire was the best as well. I talked for a while about the best parts of the series here, but with all the Ewok hating going on (which, truth be told, didn't bother me as much as it bothered others), there was a heap more wrong with ROTJ than just Ewoks. So I think I'd like to run through all the parts that make me wince still while watching the series. These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure I'd come up with more if I was to sit down and watch these again. And I will not go into the special editions either, as there would be even more for me to put down.
Wars: That damn whiny line from Luke about the power coverters at Toshi station. You know the one.
Wars: The pace at which they deliver lines. Stupid Lucas gets in the way of this several times, and frequently takes me out of the moment because they seem so unnaturally delivering the lines too fast.
Wars: The dippy devil man costume in the cantina. It felt like they didn't have enough costumes and just rented a couple, which is probably what they did. Sometimes less is better. Then again, in those days they probably didn't think people would be creating entire backstories for every costume put into it.
Empire: Some Han lines I find pretty stupid, and did when I was a kid. I don't know why, but the "You could use a good kiss" to Leia after she said she'd rather kiss a wookie. I never questioned this line until now, but does that mean Han has firsthand knowledge that wookies are good kissers? Now I'm even more disturbed by that line.
Empire: Luke in extra-whine mode after his hand is cut off. To quote, I think, a Simpsons episode, "I want white hot rage and you're giving me a hissy fit."
Empire: Darth Vader on an underling killing spree. It was played for humor, but I always found it kinda dumb.
Jedi: The Emperor - We finally see the big baddy, and he's a sneery, overconfident buffoon that is so up front with trying to "trick" Luke into joining the Dark Side that it obviously doesn't work. I always thought the look of the Emperor was pretty stupid to begin with, but my main point is that he plays this game: EMP "Hey, Luke...do this to turn to the Dark Side." LUKE: "No." EMP: "Okay, kill your father and you can join me instead of him." LUKE: "No." EMP: "Okay, let me try this ploy and tell you that it will lead to what you don't want." Stupid.
Jedi: Harrison Ford seemed really over it. Han being my favorite character, I was majorly annoyed with his character throughout this movie. His worst lines are scattered throughout, including some "act casual" line (I can't remember it exactly) that seemed a little too pop culture saying of the day for my tastes, and kicks me out of the other world created. There were only a couple moments that I bought his performance throughout. I almost wished he had died - it would have had more emotional impact than this bored version of him.
Jedi: The infiltration of the Muppets. I love the Muppets. But it was another distraction. Yoda worked, so suddenly Jabba's palace becomes Muppet central, from the Guards to the singer to the stupid pull-away toss-away gag of one creature eating another and burping. Or am I getting it confused with Dark Crystal (or did they do it in both)? I would have rather had more of the Lucas feel instead of Jim Henson, to be honest. Strangely enough, I felt the Ewoks at least had more of Lucas feel than a Jim Henson feel (although the Ewok baby was total Henson).
Jedi: Leia being Luke's sister. Too soap opera-y. Not to mention creepy from the scenes we saw in the first two movies. But also too damn convenient for Han to then have no competition, thus defanging him all the more.
Jedi: No more training scenes. Luke isn't a Jedi yet in Empire, and he will return to continue his training. Oh, no more training is necessary all of sudden. What a running-time conscious decision. Bah!
Jedi: Yoda doesn't seem as well put together. His eyes cross a few times during some tender moments that bug me every time.
Jedi: Boba Fett dies like a bitch.
Jedi: The Ewoks. I don't object to them on principle; I just wish they weren't played as clowns so much. Too many scenes played for humor with them. If they would have played them completely straight, I think the audience would have been on their side considerably more. Look at Chewbacca - he is a strong character that isn't played for humor much. They gave him the respect he deserved. I think Wicket was played fairly straight, but a lot of others were not, especially during the battle scenes with the Empire. That's my opinion of what killed 'em.
Menace: Oh, a long list of gripes that everyone has heard before, from taking the mystique out of the Force, to the frickin' sports announcer taking us out of the galaxy far, far away and bringing us to Earth. And stupid Jar Jar. Again, if you are going to have a dubious character, give him respect so that we respect him. Numbing his tongue and having him talk funny does not help us to respect him. And there are some serious clunker lines. And the stupid happenstance of the kid blowing up the basey thing.
Clones: Still very bad lines, especially when we get into the love story. Painful bad. Painful stinky bad. The death-sticks thing also seemed especially weak and bringing it back to our world again. Not subtle critique of society, and dumb to boot.
Clones: Not including how whatsit lost his legs on Tatooine (father of Owen Lars). It was in the book, and he obviously lost his legs, but in the book version, he loses them going after Annie's mom due to a nasty Sandperson trap (a trip-wire strung up at neck level that he notices too late to dodge, but early enough to not lose his head). It might have upped the rating, but hell...put it on the DVD. It seemed a nasty little scene that I was looking forward to and would have been what the movie needed a bit more of - shocking moments.
Clones: WTF - R2D2 flies? The factory scenes with R2 and C3PO, while kinda fun, were also pretty dumb.
Sith: It's been a while, but pretty much more of the same. Bad clunker lines, a gasping robot (awright...he was a cyborg, but still....), and too many punches pulled that shouldn't have been. I don't have a lot to complain about with this movie, as I have seen it so few times, and the same with Clones. I tend to remember the compelling bits than focus on the negative, but both of the last two movies I read 3/4ths of the books before seeing the movie, and was pretty jazzed up until I saw the movie. The movie let me down in both instances. But both really had their strong points too.
Sith: Annoying Emperor comes back after his face is scarred. He was especially interesting until that happened. I can only guess his brain was affected as well.
Sith: Yoda's Jedi Frog moments, while fresh and exciting in Clones, isn't nearly as much fun this time around.
There...that's the extent of my bashing.
Wars: That damn whiny line from Luke about the power coverters at Toshi station. You know the one.
Wars: The pace at which they deliver lines. Stupid Lucas gets in the way of this several times, and frequently takes me out of the moment because they seem so unnaturally delivering the lines too fast.
Wars: The dippy devil man costume in the cantina. It felt like they didn't have enough costumes and just rented a couple, which is probably what they did. Sometimes less is better. Then again, in those days they probably didn't think people would be creating entire backstories for every costume put into it.
Empire: Some Han lines I find pretty stupid, and did when I was a kid. I don't know why, but the "You could use a good kiss" to Leia after she said she'd rather kiss a wookie. I never questioned this line until now, but does that mean Han has firsthand knowledge that wookies are good kissers? Now I'm even more disturbed by that line.
Empire: Luke in extra-whine mode after his hand is cut off. To quote, I think, a Simpsons episode, "I want white hot rage and you're giving me a hissy fit."
Empire: Darth Vader on an underling killing spree. It was played for humor, but I always found it kinda dumb.
Jedi: The Emperor - We finally see the big baddy, and he's a sneery, overconfident buffoon that is so up front with trying to "trick" Luke into joining the Dark Side that it obviously doesn't work. I always thought the look of the Emperor was pretty stupid to begin with, but my main point is that he plays this game: EMP "Hey, Luke...do this to turn to the Dark Side." LUKE: "No." EMP: "Okay, kill your father and you can join me instead of him." LUKE: "No." EMP: "Okay, let me try this ploy and tell you that it will lead to what you don't want." Stupid.
Jedi: Harrison Ford seemed really over it. Han being my favorite character, I was majorly annoyed with his character throughout this movie. His worst lines are scattered throughout, including some "act casual" line (I can't remember it exactly) that seemed a little too pop culture saying of the day for my tastes, and kicks me out of the other world created. There were only a couple moments that I bought his performance throughout. I almost wished he had died - it would have had more emotional impact than this bored version of him.
Jedi: The infiltration of the Muppets. I love the Muppets. But it was another distraction. Yoda worked, so suddenly Jabba's palace becomes Muppet central, from the Guards to the singer to the stupid pull-away toss-away gag of one creature eating another and burping. Or am I getting it confused with Dark Crystal (or did they do it in both)? I would have rather had more of the Lucas feel instead of Jim Henson, to be honest. Strangely enough, I felt the Ewoks at least had more of Lucas feel than a Jim Henson feel (although the Ewok baby was total Henson).
Jedi: Leia being Luke's sister. Too soap opera-y. Not to mention creepy from the scenes we saw in the first two movies. But also too damn convenient for Han to then have no competition, thus defanging him all the more.
Jedi: No more training scenes. Luke isn't a Jedi yet in Empire, and he will return to continue his training. Oh, no more training is necessary all of sudden. What a running-time conscious decision. Bah!
Jedi: Yoda doesn't seem as well put together. His eyes cross a few times during some tender moments that bug me every time.
Jedi: Boba Fett dies like a bitch.
Jedi: The Ewoks. I don't object to them on principle; I just wish they weren't played as clowns so much. Too many scenes played for humor with them. If they would have played them completely straight, I think the audience would have been on their side considerably more. Look at Chewbacca - he is a strong character that isn't played for humor much. They gave him the respect he deserved. I think Wicket was played fairly straight, but a lot of others were not, especially during the battle scenes with the Empire. That's my opinion of what killed 'em.
Menace: Oh, a long list of gripes that everyone has heard before, from taking the mystique out of the Force, to the frickin' sports announcer taking us out of the galaxy far, far away and bringing us to Earth. And stupid Jar Jar. Again, if you are going to have a dubious character, give him respect so that we respect him. Numbing his tongue and having him talk funny does not help us to respect him. And there are some serious clunker lines. And the stupid happenstance of the kid blowing up the basey thing.
Clones: Still very bad lines, especially when we get into the love story. Painful bad. Painful stinky bad. The death-sticks thing also seemed especially weak and bringing it back to our world again. Not subtle critique of society, and dumb to boot.
Clones: Not including how whatsit lost his legs on Tatooine (father of Owen Lars). It was in the book, and he obviously lost his legs, but in the book version, he loses them going after Annie's mom due to a nasty Sandperson trap (a trip-wire strung up at neck level that he notices too late to dodge, but early enough to not lose his head). It might have upped the rating, but hell...put it on the DVD. It seemed a nasty little scene that I was looking forward to and would have been what the movie needed a bit more of - shocking moments.
Clones: WTF - R2D2 flies? The factory scenes with R2 and C3PO, while kinda fun, were also pretty dumb.
Sith: It's been a while, but pretty much more of the same. Bad clunker lines, a gasping robot (awright...he was a cyborg, but still....), and too many punches pulled that shouldn't have been. I don't have a lot to complain about with this movie, as I have seen it so few times, and the same with Clones. I tend to remember the compelling bits than focus on the negative, but both of the last two movies I read 3/4ths of the books before seeing the movie, and was pretty jazzed up until I saw the movie. The movie let me down in both instances. But both really had their strong points too.
Sith: Annoying Emperor comes back after his face is scarred. He was especially interesting until that happened. I can only guess his brain was affected as well.
Sith: Yoda's Jedi Frog moments, while fresh and exciting in Clones, isn't nearly as much fun this time around.
There...that's the extent of my bashing.
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life
Wow, Cag. Looks like we see eye-to-eye on many things about Star Wars. I'll just comment on the original trilogy to keep this post manageable.
I missed this! Guess I was too busy feeling dejected by the whole "you don't need any more training" thing.
Aaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Yes, and Ford got stuck with a big chunk of them.Cagliostro wrote: Wars: The pace at which they deliver lines. Stupid Lucas gets in the way of this several times, and frequently takes me out of the moment because they seem so unnaturally delivering the lines too fast.
Sorry, man, I have to disagree that Luke was being whiny here. He has just been beaten and brutalized by Vader. His whole world is then turned upside down. He was in terrible pain, and terribly confused. His behavior in that scene seems natural enough to me.Empire: Luke in extra-whine mode after his hand is cut off. To quote, I think, a Simpsons episode, "I want white hot rage and you're giving me a hissy fit."
At first, Vader looks ruthless and badass when he does it, but I agree it's pretty dumb in hindsight. Needa in particular seemed like a competent, loyal and honest officer - just the kind of person that would boost morale in the Empire's fleet. Oh well, after all, it was the "evil" Empire, so I guess Needa just didn't look at the fine print when he signed up. Still, Vader was an idiot for killing him.Empire: Darth Vader on an underling killing spree. It was played for humor, but I always found it kinda dumb.
I could not agree more forcefully without bursting a vein. Ford sleepwalked through the movie. Han should have died.Jedi: Harrison Ford seemed really over it. Han being my favorite character, I was majorly annoyed with his character throughout this movie. His worst lines are scattered throughout, including some "act casual" line (I can't remember it exactly) that seemed a little too pop culture saying of the day for my tastes, and kicks me out of the other world created. There were only a couple moments that I bought his performance throughout. I almost wished he had died - it would have had more emotional impact than this bored version of him.
I've read the behind-the-scenes stuff on why Lucas made Leia into Luke's sister, and I sympathize with him, but I also agree that it's too soap-ish and convenient.Jedi: Leia being Luke's sister. Too soap opera-y. Not to mention creepy from the scenes we saw in the first two movies. But also too damn convenient for Han to then have no competition, thus defanging him all the more.
Oh yes, I was really disappointed by this, too.Jedi: No more training scenes. Luke isn't a Jedi yet in Empire, and he will return to continue his training. Oh, no more training is necessary all of sudden. What a running-time conscious decision. Bah!
Jedi: Yoda doesn't seem as well put together. His eyes cross a few times during some tender moments that bug me every time.
I missed this! Guess I was too busy feeling dejected by the whole "you don't need any more training" thing.
Jedi: Boba Fett dies like a bitch.
Aaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Seriously good point.Jedi: The Ewoks. I don't object to them on principle; I just wish they weren't played as clowns so much. Too many scenes played for humor with them. If they would have played them completely straight, I think the audience would have been on their side considerably more. Look at Chewbacca - he is a strong character that isn't played for humor much. They gave him the respect he deserved. I think Wicket was played fairly straight, but a lot of others were not, especially during the battle scenes with the Empire. That's my opinion of what killed 'em.
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Cagliostro
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I'm very fond of Mark Hamill, though it sounds like I'm not from the comments posted. His inexperience shows here and there throughout the first three, and I've always felt this scene was his biggest failure, unfortunately. I always cringe a bit at his line delivery in these spots. It's not wooden or anything like that - just a bit too much. I'd love for him to rerecord these scenes today, as I have a lot of respect for his voicework these days.matrixman wrote:Sorry, man, I have to disagree that Luke was being whiny here. He has just been beaten and brutalized by Vader. His whole world is then turned upside down. He was in terrible pain, and terribly confused. His behavior in that scene seems natural enough to me.Empire: Luke in extra-whine mode after his hand is cut off. To quote, I think, a Simpsons episode, "I want white hot rage and you're giving me a hissy fit."
Why did Lucas make Leia into Luke's sister? I don't know that I ever got the behind-the-scenes on this.matrixman wrote:I've read the behind-the-scenes stuff on why Lucas made Leia into Luke's sister, and I sympathize with him, but I also agree that it's too soap-ish and convenient.Jedi: Leia being Luke's sister. Too soap opera-y. Not to mention creepy from the scenes we saw in the first two movies. But also too damn convenient for Han to then have no competition, thus defanging him all the more.
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life
Sorry, Cag, I thought you had read The Secret History of Star Wars.
I don't want to repeat stuff that you may have already come across in the book. If you didn't get that far into it, the info about Luke and Leia is primarily on page 239 (Chapter 7: Demons and Angels).
The short version: By the time Empire had wrapped up production, Lucas was burnt out on Star Wars. He scuttled his pursuit of a sequel trilogy (what would have been Episodes VII - IX) and decided to tie up everything in Jedi. One of the things that was supposed to have been explored in the sequel trilogy was the "Other" that Yoda had mentioned in Empire. But having committed himself to only one more SW film, Lucas scrambled to find a way to fit this "Other" into the story, because he felt obligated to the fans to reveal who this "Other" was. He didn't want to introduce a new Jedi Knight all of a sudden - that would have diminished Luke's importance. So Lucas went for a pre-existing character as the "Other." And making Leia both the "Other" and Luke's sister was the best option. Because it allowed Lucas to use a twin sister subplot from an early draft of Empire; it would put a definitive end to the Han-Leia-Luke love triangle; and it would make Leia more credible as another Jedi "hope" if she was biologically related to the most powerful Force-using family in the universe.
I don't want to repeat stuff that you may have already come across in the book. If you didn't get that far into it, the info about Luke and Leia is primarily on page 239 (Chapter 7: Demons and Angels).
The short version: By the time Empire had wrapped up production, Lucas was burnt out on Star Wars. He scuttled his pursuit of a sequel trilogy (what would have been Episodes VII - IX) and decided to tie up everything in Jedi. One of the things that was supposed to have been explored in the sequel trilogy was the "Other" that Yoda had mentioned in Empire. But having committed himself to only one more SW film, Lucas scrambled to find a way to fit this "Other" into the story, because he felt obligated to the fans to reveal who this "Other" was. He didn't want to introduce a new Jedi Knight all of a sudden - that would have diminished Luke's importance. So Lucas went for a pre-existing character as the "Other." And making Leia both the "Other" and Luke's sister was the best option. Because it allowed Lucas to use a twin sister subplot from an early draft of Empire; it would put a definitive end to the Han-Leia-Luke love triangle; and it would make Leia more credible as another Jedi "hope" if she was biologically related to the most powerful Force-using family in the universe.
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Cagliostro
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Y'know, I did get pretty far into that (and still have a copy on the hard drive here at work), but I didn't make it to chapter 7, as I don't remember reading anything relating to Return of the Jedi. Once I forgot where I was, I stopped reading. I may have to try to find where I left off after all. Thanks for the info.matrixman wrote:Sorry, Cag, I thought you had read The Secret History of Star Wars.
I don't want to repeat stuff that you may have already come across in the book. If you didn't get that far into it, the info about Luke and Leia is primarily on page 239 (Chapter 7: Demons and Angels).
The short version: By the time Empire had wrapped up production, Lucas was burnt out on Star Wars. He scuttled his pursuit of a sequel trilogy (what would have been Episodes VII - IX) and decided to tie up everything in Jedi. One of the things that was supposed to have been explored in the sequel trilogy was the "Other" that Yoda had mentioned in Empire. But having committed himself to only one more SW film, Lucas scrambled to find a way to fit this "Other" into the story, because he felt obligated to the fans to reveal who this "Other" was. He didn't want to introduce a new Jedi Knight all of a sudden - that would have diminished Luke's importance. So Lucas went for a pre-existing character as the "Other." And making Leia both the "Other" and Luke's sister was the best option. Because it allowed Lucas to use a twin sister subplot from an early draft of Empire; it would put a definitive end to the Han-Leia-Luke love triangle; and it would make Leia more credible as another Jedi "hope" if she was biologically related to the most powerful Force-using family in the universe.
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life
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Fist and Faith
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That's right, it seems he never did.
Back when he was writing the first draft of Empire, Lucas was deliberately vague about the identity of the "other" in order to give himself creative freedom for future Episodes - back when his dream of a nine-part saga was still alive. That draft was also when the idea of a twin sister of Luke's came up. By implication, then, she would have been the "other" but she had nothing to do with Leia.
Back when he was writing the first draft of Empire, Lucas was deliberately vague about the identity of the "other" in order to give himself creative freedom for future Episodes - back when his dream of a nine-part saga was still alive. That draft was also when the idea of a twin sister of Luke's came up. By implication, then, she would have been the "other" but she had nothing to do with Leia.
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Cagliostro
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rusmeister
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It wasn't till I read Lewis's "Perelandra" that I got that there really are proper objects for hate. Some things SHOULD be hated, and it is a virtue to hate them.Cagliostro wrote:with all the Ewok hating going on
And yes, the Ewoks are on that list, along with JarJar Binks and whatever possessed Lucas to part with Gary Kurtz and go for marketing tie-ins instead.
Oh, and anyone who calls "Star Wars" "episode 4", TESB "episode 5", etc was obviously born after 1980 or calls things whatever Lucas tells him to...
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one." Bill Hingest ("That Hideous Strength" by C.S. Lewis)
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
"These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own." G.K. Chesterton
