Who will survive A Song of Ice and Fire? [spoilers]

[Dragonlily]

So where would you guess Benjen is?

[Khaliban]

So where would you guess Benjen is?

At this point in the story, I'm more curious about what he is.

[Rhaegar]

Martin has called the Rhaegar/Lyanna pairing "too simple". Seeing how he crafts the story, I believe that. Rhaegar is not Jon's father. Another Targaryen is. No idea who, though.

Back to the original subject, Jon will die. He will be Dany's betrayal for love. I'm guessing he'll steal her dragons and fly them into battle, sacrificing himself and becoming the ultimate hero of the series. Dany will have his child.

The worst death will be Rickon. He will succumb to his own insanity, and he and Summer will let people know just how far insanity can go. The Red Wedding will look like a tea party next to it.

Well, first of all GRRM has never called the R+L=J theory "too simple" and I don't think that it is easy either. While discussing it with other peoples on a message board it might sound rather easy, but discovering it on your own should be a lot harder. As a member of a german ice and fire message board I haven't seen a lot of people who came up with that idea on their own. And on the second point, don't you think that your theory is far more simple or cliched?

P.S.: Well first post on the board. I'd like to say "Hi" to everyone here.

[Dragonlily]

So where would you guess Benjen is?

At this point in the story, I'm more curious about what he is.

Well, yes, that has to be the first question. If he's changed, he isn't capable of telling anybody's secrets from his previous life.

[duchess of malfi]

Welcome Rhaegar, welcome and true!

I have been wondering if Benjen=Coldhands??

[Dragonlily]

I don't remember much about Coldhands, from almost a year ago, but it's a reassuring idea, Duchess.

[Khaliban]

Martin has called the Rhaegar/Lyanna pairing "too simple". Seeing how he crafts the story, I believe that. Rhaegar is not Jon's father. Another Targaryen is. No idea who, though.

Back to the original subject, Jon will die. He will be Dany's betrayal for love. I'm guessing he'll steal her dragons and fly them into battle, sacrificing himself and becoming the ultimate hero of the series. Dany will have his child.

The worst death will be Rickon. He will succumb to his own insanity, and he and Summer will let people know just how far insanity can go. The Red Wedding will look like a tea party next to it.

Well, first of all GRRM has never called the R+L=J theory "too simple" and I don't think that it is easy either. While discussing it with other peoples on a message board it might sound rather easy, but discovering it on your own should be a lot harder. As a member of a german ice and fire message board I haven't seen a lot of people who came up with that idea on their own. And on the second point, don't you think that your theory is far more simple or cliched?

P.S.: Well first post on the board. I'd like to say "Hi" to everyone here.

"Hi" back.

I think Rhaegar is the obvious choice, and Martin doesn't like the obvious. That's the entirety of my reasoning.

You're right, finding this stuff out should be hard. That's what I like about this series. There's a lot of little clues (what book did Rhaegar read?) and a lot of red herrings (Bran's and Rickon's "death"). This is my conclusion from the pieces so far. If I'm right, great. If I'm wrong, I doubt I'll be disappointed. I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant. I'm just firing off ideas.

[Lord Mhoram]

Hmm yea Danlo's reading may be a red herring too. Okay, Khaliban: I think we can agree that it is a Targareyn father, and you may very well be right! Maybe it isn't Rhaegar! It is very tough to say. Jon's parentage is one of the series' great mysteries. As for Benjen...he will be important, or nominally important, later on, or why else wouldn't his body have just showed up? Unless he's a wight, though I think something more is in store for Ned's brother.

[danlo]

Actually the Davos chapter is one he read before around Christmas of last year and while I was trying to recreate it I found that Lodegarl, on the A Song of Ice and Fire board, quoted it almost verbatum--so here is his post from Ran's board...

Davos is marched across a bridge, across a drawbridge to a gatehouse. Below is a salt moat. Green waters below. His hands were bound together and he was shoved across the yard. Inside the keep the guard and Davos took off their cloaks - Davos had not forgotten his courtesies and it had been raining outside.

The Lord was in the hall drinking beer and eating sister's stew. The guard tells the Lord that they found Davos in the Belly O' the Whale (some smuggler's den), trying to buy his way off the island. Davos had a ribbon with the seals of the crowned stag, a flaming heart, and a white hand. Davos thought that one word from the lord and he would soon be hanging from the Gallows Gate of Sisterton. The waves were smashing against Breakwater's huge stone arches and swirling through the dungeons. Davos might end up there, chained to a wet floor, and would drown when the tide came in. Davos thinks he won't die a smuggler, because he is the King's hand, and this lord could sell him to the queen.

The lord had webbing between his three middle fingers. Davos heard that some of the lords of the Three Sisters had webbed hands and feet. The lord wants to see Davos' hands to make sure he is the Onion Knight and Hand. The lord is Godric Borrell, Lord of Sweetsister. Since he was found at the Belly O' the Whale, Godric asks him if he is returning to his old ways. Davos denies it, saying he was looking for passage to White Harbor - Stannis sent him to go there and deliver a message. Godric tells him he is in the wrong place, with the wrong lord, and he is in Sisterton, on Sweetsister.

Sisterton was not sweet - it was vile, small and mean and rank with odors. Davos knew it from his smuggling days. The streets were mud and planks, the houses daub-and-wattle hovels roofed with straw. Three Sisters had been a favorite place for smugglers for hundreds of years.

Davos and Lord Godric both say they have and had friends from the Sisters. Godric says he hangs the ones who aren't his friends. He asks why Davos was brought there if he was going to White Harbor.

He thinks - a king's command and a friend's betrayal - Instead he tells Godric it was "storms."

29 ships left the Wall, and Davos would be shocked if half were still afloat. Oldeo and Old Mother's Son crashed on Skagos - the isle of the unicorns and cannibals. Saathos Saan crashed up on the Grey Cliffs. Saaladhor Saan fumed at the losses - other boats were lost and the Lyseni fleet had been scattered all over the narrow sea. Saan fumes to Davos, asking where the gold is he was promised, and that he will be known as the Beggar or the Smashed. Saan goes off on Davos about the King's word, and how his men are tired of being patient. He says he was patient at Dragonstone and at Eastwatch.

Lord Godric goes back to Davos' answer of "storms" - he says that storms used to be sacred on the Sisters before the Andals came. Lady of Waves and Lord of the Skies - they made storms when they mated. Godric says the kings don't bother with the Sisters because they are poor and small, but the storms delivered Davos.

Davos thinks instead that he was delivered by a friend instead of storms. Godric tells the guard to leave Davos and that Davos was never there. Davos tells Godric that if he would send him to White Harbor Stannis would see it as an act of friendship. Godric says he could, or he could send Davos to a cold wet hell.

The Three Sisters were loyal to themselves. Supposedly they were sworn to the Arryns, but the Eyrie's grasp on them was tenuous at best. Godric tells Davos that Sunderland would require him to deliver Davos to him if he knew he was there. Borrell did fealty for Sweetsister, as Longthorpe did for Longsister and Torrent for Littlesister. All were sworn to Tristan Sunderland, Lord of the Three Sisters. Tristan had 7 troublesome sons who wanted to be knights and it was making him poor - he thinks he would sell Davos to Cersei. Davos says that Sunderland is sworn to the Eyrie so if anything Davos should be delivered to Lysa Arryn. Godric tells him the news of Lysa being murdered by a singer, and he asks Davos where the pirates are. Godric says Torrent spied their sails from Littlesister as well as the Flints from Widow's Watch. Davos tells him they are at sea and that Stannis sent them to trouble the Lannisters, but it was a lie - in truth Saan has abandoned the king and they were likely off to the Stepstone with what little ships they had left.

Davos came ashore in a boat. Saan waited for the beacon of Night Lamp before dropping Davos off. Their friendship had been worth that much, at least. Saan would have taken Davos with him, but Davos refused to abandon Stannis. Stannis needed Wyman Manderly and trusted Davos to win him. Saan tells Davos that Stannis will kill him with his honors. Godric remarks that he has never had a Hand beneath his roof and he wonders if Stannis would ransom Davos. Davos wonders it as well. Godric asks Davos if Tyrion is at Castle Black with Stannis. Davos tells him no, and then is told about the murder of Tywin by Tyrion's hands. Godric's version of the telling is of course skewed, with Tyrion bathed in blood, etc. Davos is shocked that Tywin is dead. Godric says on the Sisters they did not suffer dwarfs to live - they would let crows feast on them when born, but the septons made them stop. Davos thinsk with Tywin dead, it changes everything and asks to send a raven to Stannis. Godric says Stannis will know, but not from him. Godric doesn't want it getting out that he aided Stannis' treason in any way. He mentions the Sunderlands dragged the sisters into two of the Blackfyre Rebellions, and house Borrell suffered much.

Godric calls for Davos to sit and get beer and stew. Good description of the sister's stew - super clam chowder served in a stale loaf. A specialty of the Sisters. Hey says his daughter Gella makes it and he asks if Davos is married. He says the stew contains 3 kinds of crabs, red, spider, and conqueror. He syas he never eats a spider crab except in the stew - he doesn't want to be taken for a cannibal - and he gestures to his banner above the hearth - a spider crab, white on a grey-green field.

Godric asks about Stannis burning his Hand. Melisandre had given Alester Florent to her god to conjure up the wind that took them north. His screams and agony blew them all the way to Eastwatch, if the red woman could be believed. Davos didn't like the wind. His granddaughter brought more bread - she had webbed fingers too - the mark of the Borrells for five thousand years. Eating meant Davos had guest right, and he would be save for a night at least. The lords of the Sisters had a bad reputation and none more than Godric Borrell, Lord of Sweetsister, Shield of Sisterton, Master of Breakwater Castle, and Keeper of the Night Lamp. Davos asks about the spices in the stew - saffron. Godric tells him it was from Qarth and there was pepper too. Cracked pepper from Volantis. He laughs that he took it off a sloe-eyed maid. A gale swept her intot he Bite and she smashed on the rocks. The forebears had been pirate kings until the Stakrs came down on them. These days the Sistermen did not participate in open piracy, but something much more sneaky - they would use their beacons along the shores of the Sisters to trap ships into coming into reefs and shoals instead of warning them and plundering the wreckage.

Godric tells Davos of White Harbor and that the storms did Davos a kindness. He reveals that Davos came too late. Lord Wyman means to bend his knee, and not to Stannis. Godric tells of the origins of the Maderlys - 900 years ago they came north - they had been great lords of the Mander when they overreached and got slapped down by the green hands. The wolf king took their gold and gave them land and let them keep their gods. The Lionstar was at Sisterton twelve days prior to get water. Full of Freys making for White Harbor. Davos thought that the Freys killed Lord Wyman's son. Godric says they did. Wyman was so wroth he vowed to only eat bread and drink wine but was soon stuffing himself. The Freys were bringing the bones back to Wyman. Godric had Rhaegar Frey to supper - he lost his wife but would get one in White Harbor. Lord Walder and Lord Wyman made a pact, and will seal it with a marriage.

Davos feels ill - thinking Stannis lost because White Harbor remained open even during the worst winter - and the city had silver on par with Casterly Rock's gold. It was the mouth of the north where Winterfell was the heart. Davos thought he must at least try. Davos begs Godric to help him.

Rape of the Three Sisters was two thousand years ago - Sisterton had not forgotten, which is why Godric has no love for northmen. They were free before that, afterward they had to swear loyalty to the Eyrie to get the northmen out. The wolf and falcon fought over the Sisters for a thousand years - until they basically raped the islands of everything. Stannis upset Godric as well, having pulled into port when he was head of Robert's fleet, unannounced, and threatened him if any of his ships went aground if the Night Lamp when dark. Godric asks why he should help Stannis. Davos goes over in his mind all the reasons - he is the true king, becaus he is just, he can defend the realm against the peril in the north, and he has a magic sword. Davos wonders what to promise him to win him - gold, marriage - he was lost... Alester had played that game and died for it. Davos only response was to tell him Tywin was dead - and he tries to put doubt into Tommen and Cersei. Davos feels that Godric has doubts and doesn't want to be on the losing side.

Davos pushes him talking about Stannis' fine work - holding Storm's End, taking Dragonstone from the last Targs, smashing the Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, and Tommen can't compare with him. Godric counters, saying Tommen has the gold of the Rock and Highgarden, and Bolton and Freys... but Godric says that in the world only winter is certain, saying Ned Stark told his father that.

Godric tells Davos of before Robert's Rebellion, Gulltown remained loyal to Aerys, Ned had to cross the mountains to call his banners when Aerys called for his head. On the Fingers a fisherman carried him across the Bite, but they got caught in a storm - the fisherman's daughter got Ned to the Sisters. They say he left her with silver and a bastard in her belly - Jon Snow, she named it, after Arryn. Godric's father had a choice to send Ned to Aerys and win favor, or let him go - but Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown by then and Robert was the first over the walls and he killed Randyll Grafton. Their maester thought Rhaegar would crush the rebel, but Godric thought Robert fought the way a king should. That is when Ned said the line about winter being the only certainty. His father let him go and told Ned that if he loses, he was never there. Davos finishes the chapter, saying, "No more than I was."

[duchess of malfi]

The timing of this supposed pregnancy seems a bit odd to me...Jon is clearly younger than Robb, and wouldn't this pregnancy make him about the same age, or even older, depending upon the timing of Ned's wedding to Cat?


And thank you, Danlo. You were very lucky to be able to hear a Martin reading!

[Rhaegar]

Actually the Davos chapter is one he read before around Christmas of last year and while I was trying to recreate it I found that Lodegarl, on the A Song of Ice and Fire board, quoted it almost verbatum--so here is his post from Ran's board...

Did GRRM also answer any questions concerning the books? If so, could you post some of the more important questions and answers, please.

The timing of this supposed pregnancy seems a bit odd to me...Jon is clearly younger than Robb, and wouldn't this pregnancy make him about the same age, or even older, depending upon the timing of Ned's wedding to Cat?

Actually Jon and Robb are described as being nearly of the same age in the first Bran chapter in "A Game of Thrones":
"He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike."

[variol son]

Yeah danlo, did he answer questions? Did he? Huh, huh, did he?

Btw, welcome to the Watch Rhaegar.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[duchess of malfi]

Actually Jon and Robb are described as being nearly of the same age in the first Bran chapter in "A Game of Thrones":
"He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike."

I've always thought of Jon as being younger, since Cat is so certain that Ned would have cheated on his wedding vows in order to have sired him. If he is older than Robb, then there would have been no cheating, as Robb was begun on their wedding night...if he was about the same age, he could have been a last minute fling on Ned's part...but Cat is soooo certain that cheating must have been involved, I have always thought of Jon being younger than Robb...
[/quote]

[Myste]

Actually Jon and Robb are described as being nearly of the same age in the first Bran chapter in "A Game of Thrones":
"He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike."

I've always thought of Jon as being younger, since Cat is so certain that Ned would have cheated on his wedding vows in order to have sired him. If he is older than Robb, then there would have been no cheating, as Robb was begun on their wedding night...if he was about the same age, he could have been a last minute fling on Ned's part...but Cat is soooo certain that cheating must have been involved, I have always thought of Jon being younger than Robb...

I had the impression that Jon was conceived before Ned married Cat--when she was still engaged to Brandon. And when Brandon died and Ned suddenly found himself betrothed, and then married, it was a bit of a put-out....I don't know why I had that impression, and I could be completely wrong...

[duchess of malfi]

I thought the awkwardness was due to his prior interest in Ashara Dayne, and the shade of his dead brother standing between them... Can't be very easy to go into marriage knowing that your new wife had been engaged to your dashing brother, who had recently been brutally murdered...

[Khaliban]

I thought the awkwardness was due to his prior interest in Ashara Dayne, and the shade of his dead brother standing between them... Can't be very easy to go into marriage knowing that your new wife had been engaged to your dashing brother, who had recently been brutally murdered...

Marriage in general is not easy in this series, starting them, ending them, what have you. The Night's Watch are probably the happiest people in the Realm.

I've said it before (though it was deleted in the move), desire is at the heart of every failure in this story. Wanting, the act of it, whether selfish or altruistic, creates every pain and sorrow here. The more intensely you want, the more you will lose.

[danlo]

I'm sorry guys but I've been racking my brains to see if George actually said anything new or usefull in the Q & A. I guess there are a few factors that account for this, a.) I've been working two jobs and am pretty darn fried. b.) Along with that I wasn't in my best form, notetaking-wise, at the read c.) a lady from Iowa monopolized alot of the Q & A session.

About Iowa: Martin and this lady kept talking about Des Moines (or DeBuque-I don't know... ) and the few years he lived there-he mentioned something about The Finnicular Railroad there who's name he had used in a Sci-Fi he wrote and something about steamboats or a steamboat museum that had inspired his research for, I believe, Fevre Dream. Other than that they took alot of time talking about how nieghborhoods had changed and the city in general.

One thing new was that he has plans to write a 3rd "Dunk and Egg" The Hedge Knight story (for probable graphic novelization) and that tentative plans are afoot for either filming or animating the "D & E" stories.

Some wag asked the forbidden question just before he began the read: When can we expect AFFC? Which was recieved by a chorus of (mostly lightheartened) boos. He, pretty much gave back his standard replies. I am working on it. I'll let you know on the website. This is harder than all the past three books put together-POVs, time placements etc...About how he originally planned to start everything five years later, how he had to keep going back and explaining things. And about how one POV, using Davos as an example, can catch him up to the point where he can't stop and almost writes a small book about it-Then has to break it apart, bring all the other POVs up to date and stick everything together so it makes sense in relation to everything else.

I didn't realize this but he's apparently be working on Crows for close to four years now. Some of us dicussed in the elevator, afterwards, the significance of the line in the read about putting the 'abominable dwarf babies out on barren hillside as a feast for the crows'-is this where the title comes from?

I should have done a better job-but I was sorta reserving what little energy I had left for SRD the next morning-Undoubtedly G. R. R. Martin is an excellent reader. But after hearing alot of the same questions for three conventions running they tend to blend into each other. He had more fans and booksignings than anyone else there and when I tryed to talk to him personally, maybe he was frazzled, he was rather rude. I had a good rapport with him the last at the last two cons--but there was something funky this year. He did tell me, however gruffly, that William's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was a main factor in his 'pursuit of High Fantasy".

I tryed not to have an attitude, at all, but maybe part of it was transferance of my own frazzled state. When I noted some similaries or ''seeds'' in William books, and three booksignees decended on him at the same time, I did not get a pleasant look, or a reply.

[duchess of malfi]

I wonder if people are driving GRRM nuts with questions and criticisms about AFFC...until this point in time, I have only heard positive things about him interacting with his fans...that he, in fact, is one of the nicest authors out there.

I know how soft spoken and polite you are, Danlo. So if he seemed grouchy, it must have been because he was grouchy and knowing you, you would have done nothing at all to cause it.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yeah Danlo I'm sure it wasn't you man. That guy must be under extraordinary stress. If we think the fans are pissed about the book not being out yet, imagine the slack he has to take from the publishers.

[Khaliban]

He's a victim of his own talent. This is one of the few series with any meat to it. I feel sorry for him, but I still want that book. Maybe he'll get some rest when RUNES comes out. There are so few writers working on dark, complex fantasy that the fans will swarm over any new offering. Donaldson may give Martin just the break he needs.

We need a new one. Two writers like this is not enough. I've seen some good comments about Erickson. How is he?