Hile Troy

[dennisrwood]

i'd like to start a discussion of Hile Troy. i find him fascinating, as he is an independent confirmation of the land. and Covenent takes him as neither ally or confidant. almost as if he's afraid to find out that the land is real. and he sacrifices himself, something Thomas can't do at that point.
i'd like to hear your thoughts...

[dlbpharmd]

Is Hile Troy an independent confirmation of the Land, as you say, or is he part of Covenant's delusion?

[UrLord]

Well, face it, Linden is confirmation that The Land is more than just a dream or delusion of Covenant's. Unless you want to think that Linden is a figment of Covenant's imagination...Maybe she's his Tyler Durden! Everything that he thinks happened to Linden (in the real world) really happened to him (and maybe he was dressed as a woman, too). In that case...

Spoiler

he didn't die at the end of the second chronicles! He's still alive,

albeit as a woman!

Maybe I could be wrong...I could have it all backwards...maybe the whole thing is symbolic...Perhaps he got a sex-change operation between the first and second chronicles, and everything he thinks takes place to "Covenant" was a figment of his imagination. He has to go back to the Land and

Spoiler

die

as a metaphor for losing his masculinity, and being reborn as a woman. It makes perfect sense.

Or you could just say that the Land is something more than just a dream or delusion of Covenant's and my argument would fall apart. But, really, why would you think that?

[wayfriend]

I think that whether or not Hile Troy confirms the existance of the Land is unimportant. Even in the story, Covanent says this. By the time Linden Avery comes around, we're supposed to be in tune to the idea that it doesn't matter if the Land exists or not.

What's important about Hile Troy is he's a blatant foil of Covenant. He's another guy from the 'real world'. He's healed by the Land, so he is motivated to help it. He has power. And and he's been put in a position of authority, so his choices, passions, and fears will affect the survival of the Land. Just like Covenant.

But there is one difference: Troy doesn't get a complex over whether or not to save the Land; in 'typical' heroic form, he jumps right in without questioning himself about it.

And it is this typical hero-stuff which the author is highlighting with this foil. It's not a good thing. It is exactly this kind of person that Lord Foul can twist around his pinkie finger and then flick away in disdain.

The message you are left to ponder, as you get mad at Covenant and wonder why he's not more ready and willing to be a typical hero, is that it is precisely his qualities of obstinance, principle, and selfishness which are what led the Creator to know that Covenant is the guy the Land needs to save it.

[dennisrwood]

but if Covenent had worked with Troy? we see that Hile transformed and does serve the land well. would the white gold have also transformed him?
or is the power too much. i believe Hile failed because Thomas wouldn't help him. he stood by feeling powerless. i'd have slapped Covenent around a bit if it were me. of course if i had the white gold, i would have used it. but that's what makes all of this so fascinating. Covenent does the wrong thing at almost every turn...

[onewyteduck]

You need to remember that Covenant had no control over the white gold and if he had used it, he would have done what Foul wanted and broken the arch of time. Covenant was smart enough to realize this.

[variol son]

i believe Hile failed because Thomas wouldn't help him. he stood by feeling powerless.

No, I don't buy this at all. Mhoram didn't fail against Satansfist, and yet Covenant wasn't even there to help him with the white gold. Troy simply thought that his choices were the right ones, and never stopped to think that maybe it wasn't as easy as all that.

I suspect that Troy might have been a little different if he had come to the Land before the recovery of the Staff of Law and the Second Ward. Maybe then he would have learned some of the humility that was so prevalent then.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[matrixman]

i'd have slapped Covenent around a bit if it were me. of course if i had the white gold, i would have used it.

Yes, but if you were a person who didn't think twice about using power (the wild magic), would the Creator/old man have chosen you in the first place? I'm not sure that he would want to gamble the fate of a world on a "shoot first, ask questions later" kind of individual.

If you're eager to use power, perhaps that makes you more susceptible to abuses of power? Or to being misled in your judgment because you're too intoxicated by the eager use of power?

Hile Troy was too easily seduced by the power and beauty around him in the Land. After all, with Lords and Bloodguard and Giants and the mighty Warward, how could he possibly lose? He was like a pitbull in his attitude, ready and eager to take a bite out of Lord Foul. There was just no room in his thinking for error or doubt--until too late.

and he sacrifices himself, something Thomas can't do at that point.

I think you give Troy too much credit. His life being forfeit to the Forestal was certainly not a voluntary sacrifice: he was about to leap into Elena's defense against dead Kevin with Covenant's ring at his side, until the Forestal spoiled his fun. When Caerroil Wildwood stated there was a price to be paid for his help, Troy answered (without thinking, naturally): "Then I'll pay it! I'll pay anything." I seriously doubt he knew how deep of a payment the Forestal would exact from him. Maybe Troy figured he could sit down with the Forestal later and work out the terms. Forestal: 1. Mr. Eager Pitbull: 0.

Like Covenant, I'm not impressed by Troy's bravado. His glowing promises to defeat Lord Foul ring false.

I also think it's amusing and appropriate that Troy was the product of a military think-tank. He saw the beauty of his war plan--arrived at through his brand of abstract expertise--and denied the possiblity of error. So Troy was living in his own denial, even as he was railing against Covenant for denying assistance to the cause. And how could the Lords have challenged Troy's strategies? They didn't have the "expertise" to know any better. It's like a slick financial analyst telling his clients: "This is complex stuff. I'm a specialist. Trust me. I know what I'm doing."

So, Troy was basically a technocrat who got caught with his pants down.

[Fist and Faith]

Can't WAIT for that video of SRD at Elohimfest!! That'll shed some light on Hile Troy!

[matrixman]

I stand by my words concerning Troy. Unless SRD has something radically contradictory to say. Which would mean I have entirely misunderstood the Chronicles, and I should just go back to reading Eddings.

[Fist and Faith]

No MM, you're right. I hesitate to say, because I don't remember SRD's wording well enough, but Troy's purpose was to show what happens when people DO act the way we all scream for Covenant to act for at least most of the 1st Chrons. SRD said some good stuff about it in the GI, in his response to, iirc, Xar.

[UrLord]

You know, it's funny how my feelings about Hile Troy changed through subsequent readings of the Chronicles. The first time I read them, I was thinking "Yeah, Troy! Show that Covenant bastard how things need to be done!" This gradually changed after a few re-readings to (and please pardon the language) "Wow, Troy is a dick." The guy thought that he could single-handedly save the world, and afterwards everyone would come to him and say "Thank you, Superman!"

"All in a day's work, madam"

Of course, when he realized that maybe he shouldn't have been so full of himself and overeager to prove his worth, his only thought is to shift the responsibility and the burden of saving the Warward to someone else...namely Mhoram. If Mhoram hadn't been there...I can only imagine what that kind of despair would do to him. He would have been worse than Kevin, I think (though not really powerful enough to destroy the Land).

[CovenantJr]

I think the Kevin's Watch scene was quite revealing. You know, when

Spoiler

Troy scales Kevin's Watch to get a look at the Despiser's army, and he nearly falls off from the shock of seeing the sheer size of Foul's army.

Somehow he never paid attention to anything the Landspeople said about Foul, or he would have expected this. If he had listened, he would have known that Foul always does the unexpected, that he always finds a way to be at an advantage. Covenant, for all his faults, understood this very well.

of course if i had the white gold, i would have used it.

Personally, I don't think you would. If you mysteriously appeared in another world, would you just assume it was real? I doubt it; that's a bit Hollywood. I'm not saying you would go the Covenant route of refusing to take any action (though perhaps you would, who knows?) but bear in mind that 1) you would have no reason to believe it was anything more than a vivid dream, and 2) even if you wanted to, you probably couldn't use it. Take hold of your coffee mug right now, and try to get some magic out of it....................... Managed it yet? That was the position with Covenant and the ring - even if he wanted to use it, he had no idea even where to start.

[Believer]

Eh, it's more complex than that. I don't think there was ever anything special Thomas needed to do to conjure magic from the white gold. It was much more that he had a mental block to using the power due to his training at the leprosarium (sp). ie, he had to be powerless, he had to believe he couldn't be healed, he had to believe his life could not change, otherwise he'd be dead.

Hile Troy easily called on the magic, just by wanting to. I think Thomas could have done the same if he hadn't been so afraid.

ie, I think really the venom just overcame that fear... I'd argue that he never really needed a trigger (orcrest, illearth stone) as shown by his healing himself when in dire need, or breaking the storm, etc. Requiring the trigger was just his self-imposed limitation to the power so that we wouldn't be responsible for it.

hmm.... 'insert 2 cents emoticon here'

[Furls Fire]

The wild magic was just that....wild. Covenant didn't use the ring because he could not control the wild magic. Or, at least, in the Illearth War he thought he couldn't. And even after he did start using it, he could barely control it. I'm already too dangerous.

Troy didn't understand the essence of all that power. He didn't understand that power can be a two edge blade if not controlled. What was he going to do with it in Garrotting Deep when he picked it up and pointed it at Melenkurion Skyweir??? Bring the mountain down??? How would that have saved Elena??? He just didn't get it. Like SRD said...he was too innocent.

Wild Magic which destroys peace. Think about that for a minute. Wild Magic which destroys peace. Was if fear that kept Covenant from using the white gold? You bet it was. Fear of destroying the Land, the Arch, the universe...and himself. It wasn't until he understood what Mhoram had told him "you are the white gold" that he realized how he could use his power. But, without understanding power, the capacity to destroy is certain. Mhoram understood that, Covenant understood that, but Hile Troy never did.

[Krilly]

What I find strange is Troy's end in TIW. He had just finished attacking Covenant with the staff and taking his ring when Wildwood demands his life. Mhorham intercedes to no avail. What I find weird is that during this entire time, Troy says nothing nor does nothing. It's like he never responded, just poof. Gone.

Any thoughts?

And what end do you think "real world" Troy met when his "Land" self became a Forestal? He was in the Land for a long time, so I'm guessing he survived the fire somehow (seeing as he couldn't have been hanging on all that time even given the great time discrepency between the two worlds) but died of complications in the hospital some days later to coincide with his change in the Land.

[wayfriend]

Whoa whoa whoa ...

I think Troy's getting a bit more abuse here than is fair.

Remember, Lord Foul is supreme in the Land. It takes a certain special something (... no, no, there'll be no singing! ... *ahem* ...) to defeat him. No one in the Land can do it. The Elohim can't do it. Only someone from outside the Land, and someone as pugnaceous as Covenant, can do it.

So do we revile Hile ... do we destroy Troy ... because he's not the guy?!

Troy is basically a good and responsible guy, and he made some mistakes than anyone would make.

And there's one other foil-thing to remember. Part of Covenant's potence in the Land is that he is not of the Land, and so he does not have a genetic predisposition, or what have you, to believe in Lord Foul's ultimate superiority. Hile Troy shares that same trait, for he is from outside the Land. But, not having the rest of what is necessary, Lord Foul takes that trait, and uses it to do him in.

So lay off poor Hile. He was created to be a tragic figure.

[dlbpharmd]

He could still be alive in the real world, perhaps in a vegatative state, until his death in WGW.

[duchess of malfi]

No MM, you're right. I hesitate to say, because I don't remember SRD's wording well enough, but Troy's purpose was to show what happens when people DO act the way we all scream for Covenant to act for at least most of the 1st Chrons. SRD said some good stuff about it in the GI, in his response to, iirc, Xar.

Yes, that is also how I remember SRD's response. I think people will be very pleased when they get to watch that part of the interview.

[Fist and Faith]

Krilly, I'd say that Troy died in the fire,

*Biggest of all possible 2nd Chrons spoilers*

Spoiler

much as Covenant died in TWL. He was still able to go to the Land. And if he hadn't been stabbed by Foul at the end of WGW, he might have lived as any other Land dweller does. But he'll still be there in the Last Chrons, which I imagine is quite some time in the future.