What is it you believe?

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peter
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Post by peter »

I believe that if all of the knowledge that can be known about the universe, being, existence, were contained in the millions of volumes held by the British Library, we would currently be on the first page of the first book.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
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Post by peter »

A woman came into the shop and pointed to the Ankh tattoo I have on my arm. "Do you know what that means?" She asked. "I know it is the Egyptian symbol for light and life," I replied, and she said "It's more than that. In ancient times it was said that people who wore the Ankh would live forever."

I read some popular physics and the more I read the weirder the world seems to be. Time and space are so intertwined as to be effectively one thing, a quantum gravity field. Matter is also at heart essentially little scrunched up balls of this field and the other field, that of electromagnetism is a different manifestation of the same. The field is infinite, but finite at the same time (this at least I get) and folds back on itself torus-like so that what is outside is inside simultaneously and vice versa, the em and gravitational avatars related as in one of those weird folding toys that sort of flips in and out of itself, neither one nor the other inside or out, but both being both and really being just manifestation of the same thing.

And because it's infinite (maybe) or their are infinite versions of it or both, and infinite variations of infinite versions and time exists all at once and the pinch-point of the present just a snapshot in a stack of photos that starts with the first twinkling into existence of the first quantum point of 'it' (whatever it is) and ends with its final blink into blackness before it all starts again (maybe) - quick stop to breathe - then every moment of existence exists simultaneously and permanently and because we read only the single word of the present at any one point doesn't mean that the whole book of both past and future isn't there, physically existent, as we read each moment. And all moments exist simultaneously: at the point you read this, somewhere else you die and somewhere else you are born and somewhere else the universe twinks into existence - and every moment is endlessly recycled - what, endlessly?

This is the world that we live in, so the physicists tell us - and if you probe them deeply then you will find that they too believe that we are only on the first page, of the first book of the first shelf of the whole stupendously vast library - this, what I speak of above is what we have learned on that first page ..... and it is most probably right! And what yet remains to learn in the rest of the library is likely to be equally stunning, equally head-bending in it's revelation as emergent properties like life and consciousness arise in their infinite varieties, as worlds within world's, worlds without worlds are brought forth.

And the Pope tells us that "when we die we go to heaven" and Richard Dawkins tells us that "when we die we go nowhere". And the reality is that you shouldn't listen to either of them because neither knows shit any more than that woman who came into the shop. And the truth is that if I have to make a choice and believe something said by people who are equal in their effective knowledge of nothing that I'd just as soon believe her as either of the others!

:lol:

(That was fun to write - I hope it's as much fun to read! ;) )
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by peter »

There are no 'answers from the Great Beyond'; there are no answers from science excepting the miserable little parochial ones that the method allows for. But (in case this seems a little bleak), this is offset against the Great Unknowable that is the true beauty of agnosticism; that it is in this realm of the never to be comprehended, never to be seen or so much as even glimpsed from our materially bounded universe, that lies the infinity of possibility that is the true glory of being.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
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Post by Skyweir »

mmm… nicely said. 👌

I think there is great value in being, in mortality and in the fluidity of the art of living.

I think there are answers to life’s great mysteries everywhere … not all of them of course… but certainly a launching point.

I guess it can be approached from a process of elimination ~ what you discover is not satisfactorily explained or beyond explanation ~ and connect the logical dots to reveal the spectrum of possibilities available.

I value knowledge of reasonable limitation (on life) and it highlights the importance of here and now.

When I believed in religion ~ much of my joy, life’s rewards were in promises of afterlife. We live now in whatever way determines a future existence. In many ways - I prefer the return on the investment in this life now, my family, dear friends ~ my community ~ and my world.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Over the years I've grown further and further solidified in my belief that there is nothing to believe.
We're born, we live as best we can and then we die.

As I get older, suffer more personal physical issues, face death a few times and attend more and more funerals, nothing has made me think any differently.

I see people taking comfort in their spiritual beliefs and that's fine.
Good for them.
But I can't help but think that it's such a colossal waste of time and energy to believe in anything as far as religion.

Now is what's important to me.
Living is what's important to me.
Being with people that you love is important to me.

I believe that death and suffering is SUPPOSED to be horrific because that's it, it's all over.
I believe that believing in god and an afterlife distracts from life.
I believe that it actually inhibits change because people have a "leave it to god" type of mentality.
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Post by wayfriend »

Weirdly, this is something I have been giving a lot of thought to lately.

I, too, believe that after you die there is nothing.

But I don't think people in general understand that as much as we think we do. Maybe I am wrong, of course, but hearing people talk I have my doubts. Also (and I said this before) I don't think people are biologically capable of grasping things like "before time" and "outside of the universe" .... and "after you die".

"Nothing" means you are not going to "regret" anything after you pass away. There will be no "you" that could regret. There will be no memories, nor any "you" to review those memories.

Further: if you are in pain when you die, there will no longer be a "you" to feel pain. Nor will there be a "you" to feel relief. If you left your wife and children well off after you pass, there will be no "you" to feel like you did a great job. And if you f***ed them over, there will be no "you" to feel bad about it, or happy about it if that is your bent.

There is no "you" that can experience what death is like.

There is no "you". Big Giant Period.

And of course I ponder what that means for morality.

Because, at first blush, it means that nothing that happens to you in this life matters after you die. Be good, be bad, kill people, save people, be a hermit - when you're dead, it won't matter to you, and it won't matter to you what other people think about it.

Did you kill someone? It no longer matters to the guy you killed. Did he suffer? Don't matter now.

Sadly, it also means that enjoying life while you're alive is rather pointless. That joy be utterly and completely gone when you die. So pursuing happiness is really nothing more than being a selfish bastard.

And I conclude from this that the only good meaning that there is in this life must be found in what we do for the other people in our lives. And how it helps them do for further people in their lives. And so on and so on.

I am not claiming that this is new news to anyone. I am just describing how I, personally, found another way to get to that idea.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

I feel much the same but it makes me value my life experience and want to protect those that I care about in the here and now.

It also lets me be comfortable about being absolutely vicious in punishing crime.
Punish now while they are alive or it's never going to happen.


I also embrace Tolkien's idea that death is a gift.
Not the part that hints at an afterlife but the relief from the pains and care of the world.
Tough to explain though. . :D
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Post by wayfriend »

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Not the part that hints at an afterlife but the relief from the pains and care of the world.
I'm not going to go on and on about it, but this is exactly what I am talking about.

There is NO relief. Because there is nothing left of you that can feel relieved, nor remember being in pain.

You're erased. Gone. Absent from existence in all forms.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

wayfriend wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:Not the part that hints at an afterlife but the relief from the pains and care of the world.
I'm not going to go on and on about it, but this is exactly what I am talking about.

There is NO relief. Because there is nothing left of you that can feel relieved, nor remember being in pain.

You're erased. Gone. Absent from existence in all forms.

I always forget how literal you are. :lol:
I looked up the definition of "relief" and you're right.
I think I'm talking about the anticipation of relief or ending.

For example, there are times in my life, for a split second and usually when I'm fighting an extreme low blood sugar for the hundredth time during 40 years of T1 diabetes, that I would welcome the Gift of Men.
(T1s know what I'm talking about :evil: )
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Post by Fist and Faith »

wayfriend wrote:Sadly, it also means that enjoying life while you're alive is rather pointless. That joy be utterly and completely gone when you die.
Not enjoying life while you're alive is pointless. While you are able to experience anything, why is it better to not be happy than to be happy?
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Post by Dread Poet Jethro »

To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
Robert Herrick - 1591-1674


Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying.

The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he's a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he's to setting.

That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse, and worst
Times still succeed the former.

Then be not coy, but use your time,
And while ye may, go marry;
For having lost but once your prime,
You may forever tarry.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
wayfriend wrote:[…]

I, too, believe that after you die there is nothing.

[…]

"Nothing" means you are not going to "regret" anything after you pass away. There will be no "you" that could regret. There will be no memories, nor any "you" to review those memories.

[…]

There is no "you" that can experience what death is like.

There is no "you". Big Giant Period.

And of course I ponder what that means for morality.

[…]
Beyond one's on personal ethic, this seems to raise the question of the foundation of Law and the future of the Polis.

Paradigmatically, the basis of Law in the the old pagan Kingship-model was the King's connection with the tribal god. The Law was established for the Children-of-the-Tribe and not for the children of lesser gods.

In the Christian Age (and in nuce in the Judaic Nation), whether in Christian Kingship or in the Nation-State Model, the basis of Law is The Christ and Common Humanity. The Children-of-the-One-God have their Nations' provisional law anchored in the One Law. Universal Humanity — a One Tribe — means Universal Law.

It is hard to see how Universal Human Rights, the International Rules-Based Order, Human Fraternity, etc. will be secured in an age where Law is unanchored to float in the Nihil. Would the only option be a raw Power-Politics and the Bellum Omnium Contra Omnes ("the war of all against all")?

Definitely a three-pipe problem.

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Post by Avatar »

wayfriend wrote: And of course I ponder what that means for morality.

Because, at first blush, it means that nothing that happens to you in this life matters after you die. Be good, be bad, kill people, save people, be a hermit - when you're dead, it won't matter to you, and it won't matter to you what other people think about it.

Did you kill someone? It no longer matters to the guy you killed. Did he suffer? Don't matter now.

Sadly, it also means that enjoying life while you're alive is rather pointless. That joy be utterly and completely gone when you die. So pursuing happiness is really nothing more than being a selfish bastard.

And I conclude from this that the only good meaning that there is in this life must be found in what we do for the other people in our lives. And how it helps them do for further people in their lives. And so on and so on.

I am not claiming that this is new news to anyone. I am just describing how I, personally, found another way to get to that idea.
I agree completely with all of that, except for the "pointless to enjoy life" bit. :D On that one, I'm with Fist...the fact that it will be gone is the reason to enjoy it while you can. :D

Other than that...yep...absolutely nothing you do or say or think of feel will ever matter to anybody once you're dead. The universe does not, cannot, care.

Any value, any meaning, any purpose, is what we choose to assign, is completely subjective, ultimately ephemeral, and by any large-scale measure, pointless.

However, we don't have to measure things on a large scale if we don't want to. Our impact on the lives of others is both meaningful at an interpersonal level and within our control.

So given the choice (and the ability) to make somebodies life easier or more difficult, better or worse, I like to think I mostly choose easier, and better.

And probably a large part of that is down to ego. :D Because I want to see myself, (and to be seen), as being that kinda helpful and kind and generous guy.

But the outcome is the same regardless of motivation, conscious or otherwise, so I count it a net positive. ;)

It's not about some imaginary future or afterlife or something, it's about how I feel about myself (mostly) right now. :D Is that selfish? Sure. I'm extremely selfish. I'm pretty OK with that. (Ego right?) But again, the "good" thing still happens, so what if it happens because it makes me happy (feeds my ego)?

Enlightened self-interest is surely the best chance of achieving progress in all sorts of spheres. :D

--A
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Avatar wrote:[…]

[A]bsolutely nothing you do or say or think of feel will ever matter to anybody once you're dead. The universe does not, cannot, care.

[…]
If Z were here [let us pause for absent friends], he would remind us that Humans caring is, by definition, the Universe caring. Caring is a potential inherent to the Universe.


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Post by Fist and Faith »

True. Plus, I'm sure my grandmother's influence on me is being felt by my children.
All lies and jest
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And disregards the rest
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Post by Avatar »

Fist and Faith wrote:True. Plus, I'm sure my grandmother's influence on me is being felt by my children.
But will your children's children remember your grandmother's name?

As for the caring thing, it's a potential of humans. Isn't assigning the universe our characteristics hubris or something? ;)

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Avatar wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:True. Plus, I'm sure my grandmother's influence on me is being felt by my children.
But will your children's children remember your grandmother's name?
You're moving the goalposts. You said it won't matter. How people are raised will matter. Remembering the name of any of the people along the chain of people that led to how people are raised is a different issue.

Avatar wrote:As for the caring thing, it's a potential of humans. Isn't assigning the universe our characteristics hubris or something? ;)
It's not. The majority of things in the universe do not make heavier elements by fusing lighter elements together. Just because only stars do that doesn't mean it's not an aspect of the universe.
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Post by Avatar »

Fist and Faith wrote:You're moving the goalposts. You said it won't matter. How people are raised will matter. Remembering the name of any of the people along the chain of people that led to how people are raised is a different issue.
Hmmmm. I'll grant they are different. I was looking at it in terms of we as individuals are highly unlikely to be remembered for long past our actual lives.
Fist wrote:It's not. The majority of things in the universe do not make heavier elements by fusing lighter elements together. Just because only stars do that doesn't mean it's not an aspect of the universe.
So every characteristic of everything within the universe is a characteristic of the universe?

I don't think I agree with that. We are capable of conscious thought...does that mean the universe itself is capable of conscious thought?

Is it thinking to itself, "y'know, what we need over there is another methane cloud,"? :D

Is everything inside a fish tank a part of the tank?

--A
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I'm not sure if we should be differentiating between the words characteristic and aspect. Had never thought about what the difference is could be. Anyway, what are the characteristics of the universe?
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Avatar wrote:So every characteristic of everything within the universe is a characteristic of the universe?

I don't think I agree with that. …

[…]
It depends upon the view taken on "The Universe". There are two views operative in this immediate convo and both have a certain warrant.

The first view, the one you're apparently adopting, takes the Universe to be one-object-amongst-other-objects. There's a dog. Over there is a cloud. There's a house. And there's the Universe.

To do this, one must take what is often called "the view from nowhere" or a "God's-Eye View". At the top of the world looking down on Creation. Slipping the surly bonds of Earth, it is a Transcendental view — a view prototypical of Modernity — the genealogy of which is traceable back to Kant if not to Bl. Duns Scotus. And yes, from this "object amongst objects" view, it is quite illicit to attribute human characteristics to the Universe-at-large.

The second view is an "Embedded" view. A view situated within the Universe. In fact, it is difficult for this view to even speak of a "whole" Universe except in the most inchoate sense, since being firmly ensconced within makes any survey of a "whole" problematic.

But from this embedded view, we are Universe. We are Universe-in-action or Universe-in-process. So attributing any observable phenomenon to the Universe is a legit move, since "all that we are" maps neatly onto "what the Universe does".


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