The Lannisters *Spoiler Warning*

[variol son]

Yes, they are the bane of our beloved Starks, but they are also some of Martin's most interesting characters. With many of the other main players being very young and still growing into maturity (Jon, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Samwell), Tywin Lannister's children are some of the most interesting adult characters in the series so far.

So what do you think about them? How do you feel about them? Like them? Love them? Hate them with an undying passion? Or are you pretty much indifferent?

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Byrn]

I really like Tyrion, and don't consider him a "villian". He's been crapped on nearly as much as the Starks.

I can't wait until Cersi reaps what she's sown. She's gonna fall hard. I truly dislike her.

Jaime's current predicament has given me a new found respect for him. Plus knowing what had to go through as a young knight has given a new perspective on his attitude now. I'm begining to like him. Which means he's going to die soon. Every Martin character that I start to like dies.

[I'm Murrin]

Tyrion is definately one of the best characters. I, too, liked Jaime after aSoS, although his last scene with Brienne he didn't seem as good.

As for the fate of Cersei, I think it'll be a slow, lingering end, with her trying to cling onto her power while everything falls apart around her. All the people around her are dying or leaving - Myrcella, Joffrey, Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, even Jaime is distancing himself from her - she's going to be left on her own with only her son, and I certainly feel sorry for Tommen because of that. Fortunately, Tommen will also have Jaime to counter Cersei's influence, so the future may not be entirely bleak for the boy king.

Edit - and how could I forget Lancel - Lying on his deathbed, attended by a Red Priest,

Spoiler

And suddenly recovering, though weakened

we must wonder what will happen to him.

[Roland of Gilead]

I think one of Martin's clever goals is to gradually begin slanting the tale in favor of the Lannisters. Hence the amazing transformation of Jaime, which before ASoS I would have claimed was an impossible task for a writer.

Tyrion has always been sympathetic, and now so is Jaime. With Cersei as a POV character, can Martin again achieve the impossible and make her a character the reader doesn't totally despise?

Catelyn seems to be completely changed at the end of the novel (and how could she not?). Robb and Ned are history, Jon may not really be much of a Stark, so on the "good" side we have Arya and Sansa and Bran.

If this tale truly mirrors the War of the Roses, who can really state which represented good - Yorks or Lancasters? Perhaps Martin intends to do the same thing.

Of course, Martin's story also encompasses many other elements, the most noteworthy being Daenerys's rise to eventually become a major player in Westeros with her dragons and her allies. I don't think our real history had a counterpart to her.

[variol son]

But Cersei still has to die, because she is part of Arya's prayer.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Worm of Despite]

I dunno. Nothing's certain in these books, if anything. It'd be something if Martin did indeed write it so the Lannisters all came off sympathetic and won by the end. Somehow, I doubt that'll happen. I envision a bittersweet ending, and I also can't ever envision a sympathetic Cersei

Of course, Martin's story also encompasses many other elements, the most noteworthy being Daenerys's rise to eventually become a major player in Westeros with her dragons and her allies. I don't think our real history had a counterpart to her.

Heh, Pearl Harbor? A surprise dragon attack?

[Baradakas]

Die, Cersei die!!!!


I do like Tyrion, however.

[Lord Mhoram]

I think one of Martin's clever goals is to gradually begin slanting the tale in favor of the Lannisters. Hence the amazing transformation of Jaime, which before ASoS I would have claimed was an impossible task for a writer.

Tyrion has always been sympathetic, and now so is Jaime. With Cersei as a POV character, can Martin again achieve the impossible and make her a character the reader doesn't totally despise?

Catelyn seems to be completely changed at the end of the novel (and how could she not?). Robb and Ned are history, Jon may not really be much of a Stark, so on the "good" side we have Arya and Sansa and Bran.

If this tale truly mirrors the War of the Roses, who can really state which represented good - Yorks or Lancasters? Perhaps Martin intends to do the same thing.

Of course, Martin's story also encompasses many other elements, the most noteworthy being Daenerys's rise to eventually become a major player in Westeros with her dragons and her allies. I don't think our real history had a counterpart to her.

Ehh, I wouldn't say the story is being tilted in favor of the Lannisters. The Starks are still the true heroes, and they have done no real wrongs--though they have made numerous mistakes: think Ned, Robb, etc. The Lannisters, OTOH, have committed atrocities and crimes. Tyrion and Jaime COULD be sympathetic, depending on point of view. I like Ser Jaime, but do not really sympathize with him as a character if you know what I mean. Cersei, OTOH, I hate. lol I don't love Tyrion as other readers do, since my true loves in the series were Ned and Robb. Woe is me.

[variol son]

Good point Mhoram. And Catelyn, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya are all still alive, as is Jon. So the Starks have the goods for a recovery.

On the other hand, Tywin and Joffrey are dead, Cersei and Tyrion are practically mortal enemies, and Jaime is not only caught in the middle, but seeming to tire of the whole thing.

It's like Jaime says, if the Lannister's have won the war, then why has he lost so much.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Zahir]

I have read an excertp from A Feast of Crows in which Cersei is the POV character. A fascinating glimpse at what turns out to be a rather substandard mind. She's clever but has no depth. She is obsessed with fears and seemingly never even considers examining herself or her actions. She makes snap judgements and lies so easily one can see she has little or no concept of truth beyong her own opinions. She actually believes herself a greater leader than her father, for example!

And, interestingly, she is utterly terrified of Tyrion. He haunts her in ways that almost made me feel sorry for her.

Having read it, I have my own theory about the Lannister family. Methinks their mother found out about Jaime and Cersei while Lord Lannister was away. She seperated them, so Cersei--budding histrionic sociopath that she was--poisoned her mother, who was pregnant at the time. Ultimately, she died, and the poison quite probably deformed the child in her belly.

Tyrion.

My own guess about the three siblings and their fates...

Jaime will find redemption in some way that ultimately involves his death. Maybe falling in battle to protect an innocent, or along side the Jon Snow against the Others. Then again, if her became the equivalent of a monk or a tired background person trying to forget his "glorious" past that would not shock me either.

Tyrion methinks will enact a terrible revenge, but might not live to see his plans come to fruition. Most likely he'll be killed as some kind of by-blow of a battle or accident. His life has been like that.

Cersei will end something like Nero or maybe Richard II, betrayed on on sides and making exactly the wrong decisions to further her own cause. She might commit suicide, but I think it more likely she'll be killed when she insists on walking straight into a tactical corner that everyone will warn her about.

JMHO

[variol son]

Petyr Baelish said it best, when he told Sansa that Cersei is not at all clever and has only beauty, birth and riches, and that of those only the first is actually hers and it will dessert her soon.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Lord Mhoram]

Having read it, I have my own theory about the Lannister family. Methinks their mother found out about Jaime and Cersei while Lord Lannister was away. She seperated them, so Cersei--budding histrionic sociopath that she was--poisoned her mother[/i], who was pregnant at the time. Ultimately, she died, and the poison quite probably deformed the child in her belly.

That's a good theory. I have heard it before, perhaps from you, Zahir. But, isn't it fact that Joanna found Jaime and Cersei "together"? Didn't at least one actually attest to that? Just wondering. But yeah, I bet that one of them, if not both, are responsible for a)Joanna's death, and b)Tyrion's deformation.

[OsRavan]

well. mmm. having read a nubmer of cercie chapters form book 4 i can say (no spoilers here) she hasnt come off sympathetic to me. but that could just be my opinion.

ohh and spoiler... i dont know how to do the black thing but will give a try

Spoiler

we find out in one of cercies chapters that their mother does find her and jaime 'playing' heh and pulsl them apart yelling. but this is shrotly before she dies giving birth to tyrion and she never had a chance to follow up on it.

[I'm Murrin]

Wasn't the bit about Cersei and Jaime being found by their mother in aSoS? I think I remember it from one of Jaime's chapters.

[OsRavan]

mmm. ::rubs chin:: I think iirc he mentions it in passing at one point when talking with brienne. but you actually have a flashback scene in feast

[dANdeLION]

"How would you like to die, Tyrion son of Tywin?"

"In my own bed, with a belly full of wine and a maiden's mouth around my cock, at the age of eighty"

That has to be one of the best lines ever! Tyrion is da man!!

[bossk]

But Cersei still has to die, because she is part of Arya's prayer.

Sum sui generis
Vs

But so was Sandor and she's definitely changing her tune about him. Martin truly has a genius for making wicked characters come up a notch in our estimation.

[OsRavan]

he goes up a notch.. but she still leaves him to die a slow painfull death lol

[Heathcliff]

he goes up a notch.. but she still leaves him to die a slow painfull death lol

True, but I think that's because she couldn't bring herself to kill him, not because she wanted t him to suffer a fate worse than death.

Besides, does anyone really think Sandor's going to die?

[bossk]

he goes up a notch.. but she still leaves him to die a slow painfull death lol

True, but I think that's because she couldn't bring herself to kill him, not because she wanted t him to suffer a fate worse than death.

Besides, does anyone really think Sandor's going to die?

No, and I still have doubts about his odious brother as well. They're the toughest bastards in the book.