sticky points confused about

[Usivius]

My question to discuss is about some points of logic (if that is possible). I know SRD writes more with a visceral emotional sense, but he is also a careful writer. So I just want to ask the august body a question about the series of events throught the 2nd Chrons. (I am currently re-reading the series and am a third the way through WGW.)

Nearing the end of TWL, the quest is to make a new Staff of Law to heal the Land, confront Foul and send Linden back. OK. Covenant receives some neat gifts from the dead, including Vain and the knowledge of the One Tree. OK. But there are many hints that Foul has planned for this event all along (even the Dead?... for how else would TC retrieve the knowledge locked in his head?...). Dang, I have a problem with that right there. There is no possible way Foul, and others could foresee all the elements that would go in to TC's quest to get to the One Tree, such as Vain, Brainthrealm (sp.) and Linden. Freewilla nd choice is too much a loose canon to predict. Even Findall claims a special foresight to the reasons the Elohim blocked TC, right down to saving him from Kasreyn's attempt to take him over. It just seems like too much. Am I wrong?

Now, keep in mind that I havn't read this series since it first came out, so I can't recall all the elements of the ending, but is all this explained?
It seems to me, that Vains purpose would have been properly served just by Covenant going down to the One Tree with Vain (and Cail with Linden too, I guess since Vain follows her), awakening the One Tree (attached to the Worm of the World's End), setting off the 'dancing motes of light' and running... The motes would have changed Vain entirely to a new staff if the process was not interupted, Cail could quickly return, grab the new staff and run like hell before the island sank.

So, could this have been the original plan of the dead of Andelain? And it just got messed up, only to be fulfilled through Vain and Findal (?... i think... yah?..)

Help me with this. It's driving me nuts. I just find it hard to believe that all the powerful entities knew that this series of events was going to happen as they unfolded.

[I'm Murrin]

The Dead didn't know what would happen. They simply knew some... truths, and knew what needed to be done. The ur-Viles obviously had some foresight - enough to know that Vain would gain the necessary transformation.
As for Foul's knowledge, I believe he is a Seer. He sees future events, but not their full truths; indeed, he knew Covenant would surrender to him, but did not know what would come of it. Knew Covenant would confront the Worm, but there was uncertainty as to the result.

Vain could not have been transformed purely through the tree's power. He had not the necessary substance, nor the guiding hand to shape the Staff.

[drew]

Before Runes, I always thought that everything in the 2nd chrons was tied in with Foul's plan. I never trusted Vain (although he was super-cool) because he was made by the Ur-viles. I never trusted the dead, because Foul was able to manipulate them before. Plus the only reason Covenant wanted to make a new staff, was because of the soothtell that was moderated by a Raver!!
What I don't (didn't) think Foul had planned on, was Linden.
I think that the creator knew what was going on, knew that Covenant would goto the Land on his own free will, so he got himslef an Ace up his sleeve...anoying little Linden.
Foul and the Ravers were just quick on there feet; Gibbon was able to BS her with all that "You are being forged as Iron..." stuff.
If it wasn't for Linden, Covenant would have nearly broke the Arch, and he would not have forged himself in the Banefire....It was Linden who was able to save him everytime the venom took over.

[Insanity Falls]

Help me with this. It's driving me nuts.

Yep, me too!

I think that Second Chronicles simply do not add up!

What people have offered to "help me understand" has not changed this!

I think the work is genuinely flawed!

(I would be delighted to be proved wrong!!!)

I hope in the Last Chronicles, SRD straightens things out, and puts sense back into it.

The motes would have changed Vain entirely to a new staff if the process was not interupted, Cail could quickly return, grab the new staff and run like hell before the island sank.

So, could this have been the original plan of the dead of Andelain?

I like this idea! I frankly have no idea what SRD was thinking though!

The idea that the Dead were manipulated by Foul is a promising idea, but I'd expect the Forestal himself to be already clued up on the One Tree, so that idea doesn't really cut it.

I certainly agree that Foul and Ravers are total BS'ers.

There are other views on this topic on the thread called "Do it yourself GI"

[hierachy]

It all comes down to Lord Foul, and the nature of his power. We are told very little of it, and have no way to tell exactly how much he knows and how. You just have to accept that he knows things. Perhaps in the same way that the Ranyhyn know they have been called before it happens.

[I'm Murrin]

The lights at the tree would have destroyed Vain, not made him into a Staff. Remember that the arm they touched was dead afterwards, not just transformed. Vain needed his own rigid structure, Findail's earthpower, Linden's healthsense, the rune-carved heels, and the necessary properties of the One Tree's wood (hence the arm) to recreate the Staff. Without any item of these, his purpose would fail. The ur-Viles foresaw the need, and the trip into the Isle of the One Tree, which could have destroyed their creation, was a necessary risk if they wanted it to succeed.

[drtom]

This seems logical. The trip to the one tree had many purposes, chief of which was to expose Vain to the motes of light. Too much exposure would have killed him, but limited exposure served to transform a part of him into the type of wood comprising the one tree. This was the "seed crystal" for the completed staff of law. The obvious conclusion that the quest was to go get a piece of the one tree was a mistake made by all. Some have suggested that the forrestal (Caveral) should have had access to special knowledge about the one tree, but this does not seem necessarily true since his teacher/creator, the last of the original forrestals, was a "local boy." The original forrestals were born of the great forest before the coming of men to the Land, and though they can be expected to share an innate kinship with the one tree I see no reason to assume they or anyone else on their continent should have encyclopedic knowledge of it.

[MrKABC]

This seems logical. The trip to the one tree had many purposes, chief of which was to expose Vain to the motes of light. Too much exposure would have killed him, but limited exposure served to transform a part of him into the type of wood comprising the one tree. This was the "seed crystal" for the completed staff of law. The obvious conclusion that the quest was to go get a piece of the one tree was a mistake made by all. Some have suggested that the forrestal (Caveral) should have had access to special knowledge about the one tree, but this does not seem necessarily true since his teacher/creator, the last of the original forrestals, was a "local boy." The original forrestals were born of the great forest before the coming of men to the Land, and though they can be expected to share an innate kinship with the one tree I see no reason to assume they or anyone else on their continent should have encyclopedic knowledge of it.

AND... The Guardian of the One Tree was placed by Berek Heartthew, an event that occurred LONG after the consciousness of the One Forest had faded. Therefore, Caer-Caveral would not have known about the combat necessary to gain the One Tree, making the Worm of the World's End restive and the One Tree unapproachable.