Interesting response by SRD...

[Relayer]

Good post indeed! I've always found it interesting that Vain, a being representative of pure Law, was created by creatures who are outside of Law. And what that says about the power of the Staff.

As to the Demondim, it seems that it is their very nature to inhabit dead forms, as opposed to the Ravers, who possess those who are alive. And what happened at the battle of Revelstone wasn't really either of these; it was animating them through the power of the Stone. Although the lore used may have resembled that of the Demondim.

[Dagonet]

Good post, Dagonet. I agree with it for the most part, except I would consider Earthpower to be energy rather than chaos. However, energy without Law would indeed be Chaos, so for the most part you are correct.

Heya Wayfriend,

Earthpower as energy works just fine as well, especially given Donaldson's discussion of matter/order and energy/chaos in the Gap books. I prefer Chaos because it provides that nice dichotomy with Law, and also because the constant shapechanging of the Elohim remind me very strongly of how Chaos works in Michael Moorcock's books, even down to the static, barren desolation left behind when all of the transformations have ceased. But yes, I definitely agree that Law exists (at least in part) to guide/direct/shape Earthpower.

But Foul ... Time is not Foul's normal condition. It is alien to him. Earth is a prison for him partly because it forces him to experience time sequentially, to be bounded by the dictates of cause and effect. Time imprisons him as much as the Arch does.

I'd forgotten this bit; it's from Runes, right? And of course it makes sense: I see Foul as a being who desires above all else to create perfect works, something which is impossible within the limitations of the created world. And of course time is a huge part of that.

DukkhaWaynhim, that's it EXACTLY! That's why no one else got to live in the Creche; if they had, Foul would have spent all of his time stalking the hallways with a dustpan, cleaning up Cavewight crumbs, ur-vile boogers, and candy wrappers left behind by drunk Ravers. He'd be too busy cleaning to even have time to think about breaking the Arch. Seriously, though, the brief insight into Foul's mind at the end of PTP says it all: Foul is " . . . a being who loathed life, not because it was any threat to him, but because its mortal infestations offended the defining passion of his existence."

Relayer, the ur-viles (apparently like the Viles and the Demondim) wanted more than anything else to transform themselves (or at least their progeny) into what they were not: beings either of or at least in consonance with Law. And each group managed to get a bit further on the path: unlike the Viles, the Demondim are (mostly) bound to physical bodies, and can't teleport around the Land like their creators. And unlike the Demondim, the ur-viles are actually alive, able to bleed and be slain. Vain is the triumph of all of them not for what he was before his apotheosis, but because, as part of the new Staff, he becomes an integral component of ALL Law. Your comment about the ur-viles being outside of Law is a good one--if they goofed up somehow when they made Vain, what sort of ripples will that be sending through all of reality now that he's part of the Staff?

Cheers,

Dagonet

[Manny Calavera]

Yeah, perhaps so. TMK there is no instance of Covenant telling anyone that the ur-viles were still breeding.

What is your point ? And what was SRD's ?? If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it,does it make a.....

Faulty logic.... Or Stave and the 'masters' dont know as much as they think they do ? Is that what SRD is trying to tell us ?


It does not,and will never matter if he(TC) told anyone,the point is,it is true.The Wayhnhim(sp?) knew it,it was part of thier lore,through Hamako,they shared it and passed it down to TC.Eithier we have 'Cannon' or we have none.If SRD does not have a 'world bible' he needs
to get one asap.I am sure this site could help.

[dlbpharmd]

Manny, I went way back to find this post, which your post alludes to:

From today's GI:

Matthew Yenkala: Given all the variations of sincere and heartfelt praise, flattery and testimonials that you are routinely bombarded with, I'm a bit apprehensive (as are others, I know) as to how to begin; so I'll state it simply: I've been a reader of your work since I was 13-14 (1985!), and I could not begin to describe how profound an impact it has had on my life and on the person I have become. Along with certain other seminal interests, some of the ideas and concepts expressed through the COVENANT books have helped shaped or enlightened my view of the world, the supernatural/metaphysical, morality, and people in general.

I've been saving up questions for six months, and I have a long list, but I'm going to start with one very simple one that I noticed on my first (hurried) reading of of RUNES on the day of its release, and which has been bugging me since, and that I have kept my eyes out for the specific reference on my second, liesurely reading:

On page 226 of the US edition of RUNES (chapter "Aided by ur-Viles"), Stave speaks of the diminishing of the lore and population of the ur-viles and waynhim:

"This the new Lords knew because in numbers both the Waynhim and ur-viles continued to dwindle. Indeed, both had become the last of their kind. They created no descendents, and when they were slain nothing returned of them."

BUT

In THE WOUNDED LAND, Hamako (who I always liked!) tells Covenant:

"The numbers of the Waynhim are only replenished because the ur-viles continue the work of their Demondim makers. Much breeding is yet done in the deeps of the Earth, and some are ur-viles, some Waynhim-and some are altogether new, enfleshed visions of lore and power. Such a one is your companion. A conscious making to accomplish a chosen aim.....Lord Foul repays them with both knowledge and material for their breedings. Thus comes your companion."

So....

Was this contradiction conscious? If it was not....is it Hamako's error? Stave's? Or *gulp* yours? And if that's the case, will this be added to the list of corrections to the paperback edition?

I don't mean for my first email to you on this forum to bust your chops about a potential snafu; but I'm sincerely curious, and would like to see if there's a resolution to come.

Until I get around to sending you another--

Genuine Love

Matteo M. Yenkala

This particular issue has been raised before. I'm addressing it again because I want to emphasize that, well, I'm human, which means that I screw up routinely--and that when I correct my screw-ups I *still* screw up--and that when I correct *those* screw-ups I *still* screw up. In addition, screw-up problems are aggravated by the fact that I do *not* work from a "world bible" or any other form of Tolkien-esque background. So: problems occur; and I correct them as best I can--which is, sadly, never quite good enough.

But the particular issue you raise doesn't fall under the heading of Authorial Screw-Up. And while you're waiting for "The Last Chronicles" to reveal how that statement could possibly be true, ask yourself this question: OK, so Hamako told Covenant that new ur-viles and Waynhim both can and do still come into existence: so who did Covenant tell?

(05/12/2005)

Manny, I'm not sure what you're getting at, but from SRD's answer above it seems clear that the ur-viles and Waynhim are still breeding, thus it appears that Stave's knowledge of the ur-viles and Wayhim was at best incomplete.

[Relayer]

The Masters don't know everything? Surely you jest

In this case, I would expect Hamako's knowledge to be much more reliable. He lived in a rhysh, so he has first-hand information. Stave? He's talking about someone else's perception of a situation from 7000 years ago.

[CovenantJr]

Hmm...if the Ur-Viles are still breeding, this presumably means they are still allied with Foul in some way. He provided "material" for them to breed others, so without his aid they would die out.

Either they are dying out, or they still work for Foul.

??

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

We could see more time travel, but it seems to open to many doorways for the destruction of the Arch. Things or People being brought forward? The situation would have to be right, such as the Demondin.

If the caesures exist in all space-times that they are in, and they only "suck" forward, then wouldn't many people from the past end up in the future and things that should have happened...not???

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I think this is the point I'm making (and maybe no one else is really interested in my point , but if it isn't 'unalterable', then what is the big deal? Why are we supposed to be so concerned about Laws that aren't really Laws? Why would the people of the Land devote themselves to lives of service to these 'suggestions'? If Laws really are what SRD has lead us (or at least 'me') to believe, then Earthpower should never have been able to give Elena the ability to break any laws (since wild magic and law are what provides the framework for Earthpower in the first place).

I disagree (I admit that sounds goofy. Its 'his' world, he can make any assertion that he wants. But some assertions either make me believe his world, or make me feel like I'm getting cheated). I can use Gravity for Good or Evil, but I can't make Gravity go away. If I could, why create Gravity in the first place. If you Create a world, don't you want it to at least 'work'? If the probability of Gravity stopping based on some aspect of Gravity itself is greater than zero, it is only a matter of time before Gravity stops. That is the definition of probability. I can get a sense of satisfaction by seeing that Gravity is used for Good and not for Evil, but how much satisfaction am I going to get out of just keeping Gravity together for my lifetime so that it can fail during my childrens lifetime?

I'm quoting these two arguments to respond to them together:

Magic in concept is a power that goes beyond our natural laws-the natural laws we live in. A story is usually, but not always, considered "fantasy" when at least one character can break our normal laws in some manor (Wizards, etc.). We read these kinds of stories to do the same in a form-to get away from our lives and the reactions the world has to our decisions, the lives we live because of the choices of others, much as the laws of gravity and electro-magnetics are to the construction of our reality.

In my mind, the people of the Land's ability to break the Laws of their existence, through Earthpower and such, represent the magic/fantasy concept lived out within the Creator's world, an external action, whereas we tend to internalize our issue with the realities we live with by reading or writing these stories.

[spoonchicken]

I have a question: If the Law of Life prevented Covenant from doing anything until it was broken, how did dead High Lord Elena act against the Land in PTP? How did the dead rise up and destroy Revelwood and Revelstone's gates? How did High Lord Kevin kill First Mark Morin and Elena?

It's a little OT but sounds like a gaffe to me... Your thoughts?[/quote] Because the Law of Life had nothing to do with Elenas actions in TPTP, or the dead rising up. Both things were made possible by the breaking of the Law of Death.

[Vraith]

Just a few things that may be clarifying, or maybe just confuse the issue further.
The breaking of A law doesn't destroy the concept of law, or all law...though if there aren't consequences for breaking A law, the architecture of law is weakened. [What's that game? Jenga? you keep trying to weaken the structure till you force someone to make it all collapse] On the other hand, sometimes the consequences for breaking a law are not equal to the violation [if you kill my wife, no price you pay, even if it is death, is equal to the effects you have on the world by killing my wife]

The ceasure do pull things out of place/time, and weaken the Arch slowly, though I suspect if someone really essential was pulled out before they did the essential thing, it would all crash at once, but the ceasure just poke at time, being undirected, random not only in place but time over vast territory...and in some respects the ceasure are enforcing time as it actually happened (staff disappears in past because Linden got it...in a way, the breaking of time was not a breaking of time, but necessary because it happened in time...at least sometimes ] Powerful beings being present in the now and forward doesn't violate time because the now-forward hasn't happened yet (unless you change something/one essential in the past)...we already know that all prophecy in the Land is only truth-y, not truth. They are holistically right, specifically wrong. [Many predicted the downfall of British empire, they were all right, but even with hindsight no one can cite the precise reason...because there isn't one precise reason]
And for Spoonchicken's question: Elena expected Kevin to be MORE than he was in life...but he was actually LESS. The dead weren't 'resurrected', they were simply 'reanimated'...they had none of the power of will/choice/life, they could only be commanded/enslaved, and achieve those things they could have while alive [kill Elena? no problem, she hasn't 1/10th the lore Kevin had...defeat Foul? He never could do this]. And the power of command is like any power (or tool), if you misuse it, it's your fault, the consequences are completely unpredictable, usually bad, and the more powerful the instrument, the more people who pay the price.
("or whatever", he mumbled)