Pope Benedict XVI

Free discussion of anything human or divine ~ Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality

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dennisrwood
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Post by dennisrwood »

I think I have hit upon what bothers me about this topic so much. at no point, at any time have I called out anybody for their religion or lack of it. I have, in fact, pointed out that my Church tells me to see all religions in their best possible light. I have yet to post on the pagan topic, as I see little chance of trying to convince anyone there of my views. and so I just go on to the next post. I have posted on the need not to judge others, stating that God will make the final decision. I have asked for compassion for homosexuals, stating that civil unions would be a way to guarantee civil rights. all I have asked on that point is that the Church not be forced to recognize such a union as a religious union. I have not attacked anyone for their religious beliefs. I have tried to answer misconceptions and outright lies. I have time and time again made known my beliefs as they mirror the Catholic Church. I have asked questions, I have answered questions. and at times I have replied in kind to the bile I have been shown. I'm sorry for that. In fact I have apologized on other boards if I got hostile. and I see such a lack of respect here from some. I have tried to answer with the truth and with the knowledge that I represent the Church here. I don't believe I am ignorant. nor am I anti-semetic. nor do I call for an Inquisition. or ask for a Crusade. I have posted on the Church's positions. I will continue to do so when prompted, and pray for guidance. but I don't see the point in a lot of this. the Church was, is and ever shall be. that is my faith. that is my conviction.
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High Lord Tolkien
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Sylvanus wrote:If you'll notice, this thread is three posts shorter. Keep it civil, or keep it in PMs.
I thought I was being civil.
Almost clinical, I'd say.
If you're going to delete posts talking about the definitions of being a Catholic it doesn't say much for a "Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality" forum.
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Post by Myste »

I think the deletions were more about personal attacks than individual beliefs. It is possible to disagree without vilifying each other. This is naturally a very personal subject, but we should try to keep it from turning into a slugfest.
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High Lord Tolkien
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Myste wrote:I think the deletions were more about personal attacks than individual beliefs. It is possible to disagree without vilifying each other. This is naturally a very personal subject, but we should try to keep it from turning into a slugfest.
Personal attacks?

How about "facts"?

If you don't believe in the infallibility of the Pope then you're not a Catholic.
If you think abortion is OK then you're not a Catholic.

You can't pick and choose what you want to believe in the Catholic Church and still call yourself a Catholic.

Mhoram posted his beliefs about the Pope and I questioned it.

I hope the next time someone questions a statement that I make I can be assured that that person's post will soon be deleted.

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dennisrwood
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Post by dennisrwood »

I have to agree with Tolkien. you don't get to pick and choose what Catholic dogma you like. I had to turn around on the death penalty. I went to confession and prayed quite for God to change my heart. He did. I went to confession on who to vote for in the last election. I had to seek forgiveness for voting Dem. you either submit to the Church, or you join another church.

Tolkien, are you Catholic?
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High Lord Tolkien
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Dennis,
Nope, I was raised Catholic but I have too many issues with it to call myself one.

The infallibility of the Pope being one of them! :D
There are a hundred others too, sorry.

I like the term I came up with before:
"Christian-with-Catholic-tendencies"

My wife is so I'm up to date on most of the happenings of the Church.
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Post by Avatar »

Some good posts folks. Unfortunately, as we all know, there are no answers at all, let alone easy answers. ;)

Faith. It's a tough one. Personally, I don't have much faith. In anything really, with the possible exception of myself. ;)

There are a lot of ideas I like. Things I'd like to believe in. But my liking them doesn't make them true, or even likely. Essentially, they're ideas that amuse me, or appeal to me, on some level, and nothing much more.

I'm just one of those people not designed for "faith". And yet the idea itself fascinates me. Partly because of the rock-solid certainty that faith seems to give most people. To know indisputably and without a doubt that something immeasureable, intangible, and unquantifiable must be there, most be a comforting feeling.

Personally, I prefer uncertainty. It keeps me flexible. Hell, I'm uncertain about pretty much everything. Will the sun rise tomorrow? Dunno, ask me again in 24 hours. :lol:

Uncertainty is much safer ground than faith. Once we start accepting something unquestioningly as the One Truth, it means first that everybody who doesn't accept the One Truth must be wrong, and second, it perhaps blinds us to the possibility that there is far more than just One Truth.
Everything is True in some sense, False in some sense, and Meaningless in another sense. --Malaclypse the Younger
The opposite of a trivial truth is a lie, but the opposite of a Great Truth, is also true. --Niels Bohr
How much difference is there between what we would like to be true, what could be true, and what we know to be true? And how do we percieve those differences?

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Avatar wrote:I'm just one of those people not designed for "faith".
Now, by "designed," do you mean... :mrgreen: :haha:

No point in me commenting on the rest of what you said, since, as so often, I could have made the same post.
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Post by Avatar »

:LOLS:

Very funny, Fist. :D

Hey, you never know. Maybe we're all deliberate. Otherwise whose souls would the theists be out to save? They'd have a pretty boring time if everybody just ageed with them about everything.

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Post by Warmark Jay »

Are we veering off topic a bit? Back to the Pope, and the implications for non-Catholics:


I had to seek forgiveness for voting Dem.
I have to say - this makes me nervous. Especially in light of Frist's videotaped message this weekend, implying that if you're not a Republican, you're not a person of faith. I think Joe Lieberman, Jimmy Carter, Jesse Jackson, and many, many other people would take offense to that. (This, BTW, is not an endorsement of these guys' politics.) Again, non-Catholics see the hand of the Vatican in American politics; theocracy is anathema to what this country is all about, and such attempts by the Church to blackball politicians who don't espouse Catholic doctrine are dangerous. Again - this is not faith we're talking about; it's an attempt by the Church to further itself in the political arena.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Warmark, I think it goes back to my comments about the RULES of the Church.
If you say that you're a part of something and then take action that contradicts the beliefs of the Church (lets say the typical voting record of the typical Democrat), then I think the Church has every right to "slap you around" so to speak.

I think the Catholic Church is amazingly ABSENT from the political arena!
They have thier hotbutton issues.

During the 2004 campain there was *ONE* Bishop(?) told Kerry that he shouldn't take communion at a Catholic Church due to his abortion support.
I was like: "yeah, no sh#t."
But the press just made it seem like the priest was a nutjob and not someone actually following the RULES!
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Post by Plissken »

So if you support a political issue, whether you engage in the activity or not, you're not getting communion?
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Post by Warmark Jay »

I think the Catholic Church is amazingly ABSENT from the political arena!
I have to disagree with you. In the U.S. alone, the Church has continually backed anti-abortion groups, vocally and financially. They have lobbied for tax breaks for faith-based initiatives, and support candidates who back them. Church officials have been vocal about restricting gay marriage. And regardless of whether or not one bishop or a dozen took Kerry to task on his views on abortion, it was a calculated move that was certain to end up in the press. Abroad, the Church's views on contraceptives have impacted Third World countries, adding to overpopulation and increasing the spread of AIDS; this is a clear example of Church policy spilling over into the socio-political arena.

The Church has every right to speak its mind about such things; freedom of speech and religion are not to be trifled with, even (and especially) if I or anyone else disagrees with the message. But there's also the concept of freedom FROM religion that's equally if not more important.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Warmark Jay wrote:
I think the Catholic Church is amazingly ABSENT from the political arena!
]I have to disagree with you. In the U.S. alone, the Church has continually backed anti-abortion groups, vocally and financially. They have lobbied for tax breaks for faith-based initiatives, and support candidates who back them. Church officials have been vocal about restricting gay marriage.
Yeah, but I hope you're not lumping Christians in with Catholics.
There is a difference.


[quote="Warmark Jay"The Church has every right to speak its mind about such things; freedom of speech and religion are not to be trifled with, even (and especially) if I or anyone else disagrees with the message. But there's also the concept of freedom FROM religion that's equally if not more important.[/quote]

Not to the Church.
:lol:

"freedom FROM religion" is a contradiction to the Church.
Like saying "I'm taking a break from God for a while but I'll be back."
That just doesn't hold water with people of faith.

[/spoiler]
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Plissken wrote:So if you support a political issue, whether you engage in the activity or not, you're not getting communion?
Abortion is not a "political issue" to the Catholic Church.
It's a freaking huge *MORAL* issue!

Kerry didn't just "support" he *VOTED* on every pro-abortion bill that was every put in front of him.
Partial birth? Kerry's for it!

He's 100% for what the Catholic Church calls murdering babies.

You don't think that for him to go to a Catholic Church during an election to show how he's a spiritual man is something the Church might take exception to?
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Post by Warmark Jay »

Yeah, but I hope you're not lumping Christians in with Catholics.
There is a difference.
I don't, and there are HUGE differences between denominations; anyone from Ireland could probably speak to that. That's a minefield that I don't feel like wandering into; I've been privy to conversations between non-Catholic Christians on how "wrong" the Church is, and vice versa.
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Post by Plissken »

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Plissken wrote:So if you support a political issue, whether you engage in the activity or not, you're not getting communion?
Abortion is not a "political issue" to the Catholic Church.
It's a freaking huge *MORAL* issue!

Kerry didn't just "support" he *VOTED* on every pro-abortion bill that was every put in front of him.
Partial birth? Kerry's for it!

He's 100% for what the Catholic Church calls murdering babies.

You don't think that for him to go to a Catholic Church during an election to show how he's a spiritual man is something the Church might take exception to?
I was more thinking of the common parishoner. Obviously, Kerry can't have an abortion, which the Chuch believes is a sin.

But, taking it down a notch, what if I'm a Catholic who votes for a candidate who believes in Gay Marriage? Will I be blocked from communion then - even if I'm not gay, and have never committed the "sin" of homosexual activity?

(Not sure if I'm asking this well. I'm confused by the idea of what happens in the voting booth having an effect on what happens in the church. I'm also kind of getting the willies.)
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High Lord Tolkien
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Plissken wrote: (Not sure if I'm asking this well. I'm confused by the idea of what happens in the voting booth having an effect on what happens in the church. I'm also kind of getting the willies.)
Yeah, I'm getting kinda bored with this thread now too.
It was more fun when we were all talking about blonde cheerleader porn.
;)
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Post by Warmark Jay »

It was more fun when we were all talking about blonde cheerleader porn.
I think that, despite our philosophical differences, we can all agree on that.
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Post by dennisrwood »

Plissken: well you can get communion after going to confession. my problem was voting for Bush when he was running an immoral war, and not doing anything to stop abortion. and in fact having read a post here somewhere that linked to an increase in abortions since Bush took office. so I went to confession, grit my teeth...and voted Libertarian. but kerry should not be receiving communion. both parties have pro-Catholic stances and bothe have as many anti-Catholic stances.
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