Pope Benedict XVI

[Plissken]

But you can sin by voting -- and presumably do penance for who you vote for? And until you do, your immortal soul is in danger of hell or something?

(Willies increasing..)

[dennisrwood]

no. if you do wrong and seriously repent, then go to confession. I went to confession before voting, as I was in conflict with Church teachings and needed to reconcile what was the greater evil, war or abortion. confession involves repentance and wanting to not sin, not sinning and getting a free pass.

[Lord Mhoram]

Tolkien,

So all 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide agree with every single Church teaching?

I find this hard to believe.

Not nearly all of the Catholics I know agree with all of the Church's teachings, and I know a lot of Catholics.

edited to remove comment to Syl

[[Syl]]

Thanks for making me drag this off topic, HLT. Your first post that I removed was snide and condescending. The reply that Mhoram made, though crude, was justified. I couldn't remove one without the other.

I don't really care what you say, just do it with a little tact. And if you don't like the way I moderate, either send me or one of the other moderators a PM or stay out of the Close.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Thanks for making me drag this off topic, HLT. Your first post that I removed was snide and condescending. The reply that Mhoram made, though crude, was justified. I couldn't remove one without the other.

I don't really care what you say, just do it with a little tact. And if you don't like the way I moderate, either send me or one of the other moderators a PM or stay out of the Close.

Whatever.
You're wrong.

[lurch]

..I think Myste has hit on something. A different tact here. Rather than " what is Faith", more in the vane of How is it that we come by the Faith that we do have...

Myste believes that Jupiter exists. Watch carefully now..here is what I suggest..Get thee to a telescope Now. Jupiter is at its closest to earth( and vis versa) Now. And while you have the telescope out , take a look at Saturn, its in the same nite sky. Whats my point? When one sees Jupiter and especially Saturn for the first time, in real colors, in real time, its almost always a AAAHHAAA moment. Folks are transformed. When ones beliefs are rewarded in reality, faith grows.

I have faith in the scientific process. We live healthier and longer lives because of the advances of science. I placed Faith in science when I received a shot of vaccine that would prevent Polio. I have faith in the power of positive thinking and attitude. True, some time with scary manifestations, akin to be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it, but I have faith in it.

There is the other side. The fable of Job is older than the old testament. Faith testing seems to be a property of religions. Yet, the scientists say our sun has about 5 billion more years to go before it runs out of fuel.
I'd be greatly disappointed if a week from tomorrow i woke up to find out the sun was running on empty. I don't htink I could last as long as Job did in maintaining my faith in scientists or their process.

Point is, faith is something learned, from parents, religious instructers, etc.
Its nutured or not,,about how we preceive being rewarded. To some, the Faith is its own reward. To others its results in the abstract , or, as well as the real. As pointed out, organized religions are dogmatic in their requirements of and for faith. They have to be , other wise they wouldn't exist or have the Power required to exist..see the Pantheon in Rome.

The practice of Faith is not exclusive to any one anything. It can and is applied to just about everything. In a sense, its not really mystical at all. Its just a matter of learning from behavior being positively re-inforced....MEL

[dennisrwood]

Lord Mhoram : the fact that Catholics don't agree/believe in Church dogma does not make the Church wrong, it makes the individual wrong.

The Nicene Creed

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

seems ironclad, no?

[kevinswatch]

Whatever.
You're wrong.

How about,

If you don't want to play nice, I'll just ban you?

Listen to the mods.-jay

[Plissken]

no. if you do wrong and seriously repent, then go to confession. I went to confession before voting, as I was in conflict with Church teachings and needed to reconcile what was the greater evil, war or abortion. confession involves repentance and wanting to not sin, not sinning and getting a free pass.

this is my definition of spiritual terrorism. How do you do wrong by voting? What needs to be confessed within the voting booth? If you vote against the warmongers, will Christ reject you for allowing fetuses to die?

I cannot disregard the nuance required of every vote, regardless of what various churches or parties require of me. For the implicit requirement to be to vote in line with the "Church" is whar gives me the freakin' willies.

[dennisrwood]

Plissken: what if you vote for the National Socialists? and since I fall in accord with the Church, I vote in line. the problem is that there is no longer any choice. there is no one I can vote for with who I agree with.

[Fist and Faith]

Why doesn't the Church have its own candidate? If elected, he would always fight abortion, avoid war, etc.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Whatever.
You're wrong.

How about,

If you don't want to play nice, I'll just ban you?

Listen to the mods.-jay

I'm not quite sure how I got to be the badguy in this thread.
That wasn't my intent.

For the record, I stand by my statements.

This is a good thread.
I enjoyed everyone's input.
I even enjoyed Mhoram telling me to "screw".
It's the give-and-take I expect in forums.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Tolkien,

So all 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide agree with every single Church teaching?

I find this hard to believe.

Not nearly all of the Catholics I know agree with all of the Church's teachings, and I know a lot of Catholics.

I guess I might have offeneded you before.
Sorry, that wasn't my intent.
I thought that in my follow up to you, that was deleted, would have made myself more clear.
Maybe you didn't get the chance to read it.

I don't see how not agreeing with something so fundamental to Catholic doctrine, actually the whole basis or point of the Church, can be looked at as anything else other than .....well...not being Catholic.

It seems to me that that type of thought is "Christian-with-Catholic-tendencies".

[kevinswatch]

If you're not trying to be a bad guy, then you should have no worries.

However, when you make comments like

Whatever.
You're wrong.

to the moderator of this forum after the moderator had just made a very civil and very clear statement on why he deleted those posts, to me that just sounds rude. Sly didn't even have to explain himself. But he did and you threw it back at him.

I fully trust the mods here on their ability and we don't need people like yourself publicly attacking their judgment. If you have a problem with a mod, you send them a PM or talk to me about it. But when you make comments like that, it just sounds immature and childish.

If you want respect, you're going to have to give some back.-jay

[Warmark Jay]

Lord Mhoram : the fact that Catholics don't agree/believe in Church dogma does not make the Church wrong, it makes the individual wrong.

Dennis, that is perhaps your belief, but as far as any of us living know, it's not a fact. Millions of Protestants, Episcopalians, Baptists, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and probably quite a few Catholics would take exception to your statement. Again, your view is a matter of faith, and while clearly your faith runs strong, it's disconcerting to hear that you can so easily pass judgment on the faiths and belief systems of others. Somewhat ironic, considering that the new Pope chose his name from a Benedict who was know for his conciliatory nature and who has already taken steps to reach out to people of other faiths.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Lord Mhoram : the fact that Catholics don't agree/believe in Church dogma does not make the Church wrong, it makes the individual wrong.

Dennis, that is perhaps your belief, but as far as any of us living know, it's not a fact. Millions of Protestants, Episcopalians, Baptists, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and probably quite a few Catholics would take exception to your statement. Again, your view is a matter of faith, and while clearly your faith runs strong, it's disconcerting to hear that you can so easily pass judgment on the faiths and belief systems of others. Somewhat ironic, considering that the new Pope chose his name from a Benedict who was know for his conciliatory nature and who has already taken steps to reach out to people of other faiths.

Dennis' view on the Pope is not "based in faith".
It's Catholic doctrine, dogma, or law.
It's written down on paper, so to speak.
What he's said here isn't insulting or disconcerting to anyone.

The Pope's infallability is not a matter of debate within the Church.
It's the whole *cornerstone* upon which the Church is built.
(There's nothing wrong with questioning it and doubting it as a Catholic, it's an enormous issue)

But it's almost like saying "I'm a Catholic but I've never been baptised and I don't need to be baptised to be a Catholic"

The priest you tell this to will be very kind but explain to you that you're wrong.

[Warmark Jay]

Dennis' view on the Pope is not "based in faith".
It's Catholic doctrine, dogma, or law.
It's written down on paper, so to speak.
What he's said here isn't insulting or disconcerting to anyone.

The Pope's infallability is not a matter of debate within the Church.
It's the whole *cornerstone* upon which the Church is built.
(There's nothing wrong with questioning it and doubting it as a Catholic, it's an enormous issue)

Two things: it's disconcerting to me to hear anyone say that one who does not subscribe to Church dogma is wrong, whether they're Catholic or not (logically, it stands to reason that based on his statement, the "wrongness" stems from the disbelief in Church dogma). The second: you say that there is nothing wrong with questioning the Pope's infallibility. I won't speak for Dennis, but it stands to reason that if the Pope is God's chosen leader of the Church, and God is omnipotent, then questioning the Pope is questioning the Boss, and a conservative Catholic would say that's wrong.

[Plissken]

Plissken: what if you vote for the National Socialists? and since I fall in accord with the Church, I vote in line. the problem is that there is no longer any choice. there is no one I can vote for with who I agree with.

I'm not sure I understand the question. What I'm asking is if you can put your soul at risk for voting a different way than the Church directs.

(I didn't even realize that the Church told you who to vote for, so I'm kind of catching up.)

[High Lord Tolkien]

Dennis' view on the Pope is not "based in faith".
It's Catholic doctrine, dogma, or law.
It's written down on paper, so to speak.
What he's said here isn't insulting or disconcerting to anyone.

The Pope's infallability is not a matter of debate within the Church.
It's the whole *cornerstone* upon which the Church is built.
(There's nothing wrong with questioning it and doubting it as a Catholic, it's an enormous issue)

Two things: it's disconcerting to me to hear anyone say that one who does not subscribe to Church dogma is wrong, whether they're Catholic or not (logically, it stands to reason that based on his statement, the "wrongness" stems from the disbelief in Church dogma). The second: you say that there is nothing wrong with questioning the Pope's infallibility. I won't speak for Dennis, but it stands to reason that if the Pope is God's chosen leader of the Church, and God is omnipotent, then questioning the Pope is questioning the Boss, and a conservative Catholic would say that's wrong.

"wrong" only in the Catholic sense, not wrong in general.
I think that's whats tripping people up on this.
This is a very narrow Catholic issue, having NOTHING to do with any other faith, Christian or otherwise.

And what I said about "doubting" is just human nature.
And doubt and faith go hand in hand.
We're only human.

[Warmark Jay]

"wrong" only in the Catholic sense, not wrong in general.
I think that's whats tripping people up on this.
This is a very narrow Catholic issue, having NOTHING to do with any other faith, Christian or otherwise.

And what I said about "doubting" is just human nature.
And doubt and faith go hand in hand.
We're only human.

Misinterpreted your comments - my apologies. And I agree with you about doubt and faith, although that kind of talk will get you kicked out of the Bloodguard.