Those Odd Words

[Guest]

Jeez! You're right! <ducks his head ashamed>

[Lauralin]

My ignorence in this matter might be partially explained by the fact that I've never taken chemestry, being in 10th grade, that course isn't till next year.

[Bannor]

No problem, amanibhavam. I am glad no one keeps track of all the mistakes I make! The elements were always a favorite of mine, and I miss not teaching them any longer. (Really loved valence and how elements combined) Don't want to get too far off the original thread so I'll cease with my love for the Periodic Chart.

[Vain]

Now when we start talking covalent bonds, we'll really be cooking. Actually, math was my favourite subject - there's just something about calculus that's poetry in motion

[Bannor]

Well, I was going to admit I'd made an error in continuing the obviously off-topic subject of chemistry, but if Vain continues, then it must be ok! Vain, as I tell my students, math is heavenly, if you understand it; if not, it can really be a drag. I've not taken calculus, but it seems to be very difficult. Probably, if I had taken it AND understood it, I would love it. In math, my favorite part is fractions (all 4 functions, converting, explaining, etc)!
In another strange direction: I LOVE grammar/syntax, and I take great efforts in making sure I am correct when writing. And I love words, which is probably why I enjoy SRD's writings so much. He doesn't treat us like children, and he expects us to be literate. (Hey, I got back to the original topic!)
This is a great board. Small, but knowledgeable and very friendly. Mine (gapofrohan.com) is very similar. Kevin's Watch has more members, but I delete anyone who registers and does not post for 30 days. I am very happy to have found this site and met the people who enjoy Donaldson.

[Foamfollower1013]

I can't stand math, and I'm not too fond of science either. English is my favorite subject. I'm a grammar buff - I'm always correcting my friends' grammar - and I love words too. Probably comes from reading so much.

~Foamy~

[Lauralin]

Hehehe...this is kinda off topic, but I have the same feelings regarding math, Foamy. The reason for me being; you're either right or you're wrong, and there's no way to appeal the matter. Words are fun, my father is always using ones that I don't understand, but it's interesting to find out.

[Nerdanel]

For me personally attar was the most problematic. It is a prominent word in the books but I couldn't find it in a dictionary. Finally I solved my problem by finding a dictionary that has somewhat fewer words than the one I have been primarily using but more than makes to it by being more outdated. It even has telic.

[Bannor]

some of you may be interested in knowing that (Yes, I'm still on topic, I think) Book of the Month Club is offering FREE access to the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) for any new members. Don't know how long the offer will last. The OED costs hundreds a year as a subscription, and I've not been able to afford it. I started using it yesterday, and found telic:
1. Gram. Of a conjunction or clause: Expressing end or purpose.

1846 in WORCESTER (citing Prof. Stuart). 1856 ALFORD Grk. Test. III. 90 note/2 [In Eph. ii. 9 ] has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed. 1882 FARRAR Early Chr. II. 507 note, St. John's use of is far wider than that of classical writers. It often loses its telic sense (‘in order that’) and becomes simply ekbatic or explanatory, as in Luke i. 43, John xv. 13. 1904 Sat. Rev. 9 Apr. 460/1 It expresses a purpose or intention, and is therefore telic.



2. Directed or tending to a definite end; purposive.

1889 MIVART Truth xxv. 438 The telic series of cyclical changes which are characteristic of all duly organized living bodies. 1903 L. F. WARD Pure Sociol. II. v. 94 All causes are either efficient, conative, or telic. Ibid. II. vi. 97 The telic or final cause is not a force,..but it utilizes efficient causes in a manner wholly its own, and thus produces effects. 1906 DEALEY & WARD Text-bk. Sociology §280 Civilisation chiefly consists in the exercise of the telic faculty.

[Guest]

OED is awesome - I just can't look at any other dictionary the same any more.

[Bannor]

Aye, Anonymous. Very hard to pick up another dictionary and feel secure. I've already been through a disagreement with someone in another forum who said that Tolien's writing was a "true myth". I still maintain that the two words have no meaning together. Once a myth becomes or is found to be "true" then there is no more myth (Kinda like standing up and sitting down at the same time). The OED was quoted in her "argument" as myth being a "tale" and therefore could be true. Now, having access, I can definitely say that she's still incorrect, and has misread the OED.
You can bet that SRD has access to the OED and uses it correctly for the "odd words" we find (back on topic).

[Skyweir]

Re: attar .. Donaldson uses a lot of medical terminology .. I guess it is because of his dad being a doctor and all .. I havent made the effort to search for 'attar' in a dictionary as I am familiar with its meaning .. but I am sure you would find it in a medical dictionary ..

Not that I can recall a single example or anything ... but I remember reading the chrons. and thinking .. well yeah that's a medical term .. but does it really fit in this context .. and I always came to the conclusion that loosely it almost always did .. sometimes not so convincingly though imo.

I will see if I can find an example and get back and post it .. so you can understand what I am trying to say better ..

[Tohrm]

Here's another one of those words. Elohim. I just found out that it is generic Semitic. El was the name for God, "the strong one". Elohim is the plural form of El.
Normally I can figure out what a word means by what context it is used in. But in that particular case I assumed that SRD simply had used a word that was used to represent elves or fairies from another language. I was surprised to find out that it meant gods.

[Skyweir]

actually that being true .. is fascinating .. the Elohim (Hebrew) mentioned in the bible then donotes the plural gods .. (more than one) .. and I find that an interesting aside ..

[danlo]

I always thought that attar was a rose extract...

[Coercri]

From what I can tell attar is a type of perfume & means "essence of" But the question is ?essence of what? It sounds like SDR has a particular smell in mind, & unpleasant too I might add. Maybe it has something to do with his time in India, a general term?

-Coercri

[amanibhavam]

attar is rose oil according to my sources (Skywier maybe you had ether on your mind?); how exactly rose oil is connected to Lord Foul is beyond me; it is true, that when you smell a perfume undilated, they can smell very bad and nauseating

[Bannor]

Couldn't resist the opportunity to delve into the OED for attar:
A very fragrant, volatile, essential oil obtained from the petals of the rose; fragrant essence (of roses).

1798 PENNANT Hindostan II. 238 That luxury of India, the Attar of Roses. 1825 MACAULAY Milton, Ess. I. 6 These poems differ from each other, as atar of roses differs from ordinary rose water. 1873 T. HARDY Madding Crowd xxiii. (1882) 175 That buzz of pleasure which is the attar of applause.



b. The full Persian Attar-gul is sometimes used.

1813 BYRON Br. Abydos I. x, The Persian Atar-gul's perfume. 1876 BROWNING Pacchiarotto 228 The true half-brandy, half-attar-gul.

[Skyweir]

*bows to superior intellect*

well Amy .. you would most definitely know .. so far be it for me to question a medical practitioner .. It seems I am truly misguided by thinking attar was a medical term .. but I always believed it referred to a pungent and not at all pleasant aroma .. like that TC described of his decaying flesh .. and thought it a word used by the profession to define such occurences of that kind of stench associated with rotting flesh .. and dry blood ..


and it seems that SRD still used a lot of medical terminology in his writing .. but as I said .. I have been too lazy to look for examples .. I will get on to it ..

as for ether being on my mind? .. mmm ...

[amanibhavam]

the two things do not contradict each other, IMHO
as I mentioned above, flower oils in their pure form have so intense smells that they become unpleasant: you have to dilute them to get a perfume which has a pleasant smell

and who knows if in SRD's childhood in a tropical place attar wasn't used as some kind of medical substance, some kind of disinfectant, or an ingredient of a medicine?