What if Covenant was wrong?

[KaosArcana]

I probably need to go back and read the First and
Second Chronicles again, but I have to say that I'm
not sure that Covenant was right ... and that Foul
can't be destroyed.

Foul says to Covenant in _Lord Foul's Bane_:

"But the Power which upholds me has stood since the creation
of Time. Therefore when Kevin dared me to unleash the forces
that would strike the Land and all its cursed creations into dust,
I took the dare. Proud of his Lore, he did not know that the very
Law which he served preserved me through the cataclysm,
though all but a few of his own people and works were stricken
into dust."

So the question arises: just what is that Power that upholds Foul?
Is it because his Despite Incarnate? Perhaps. But ...

"True. I was reduced for a time. I have spent a thousand years
gnawing my desires like a beaten cur."

Why would the Ritual of Desecration-- the ultimate act of despair--
reduce Foul's power if he was Despite itself? Shouldnt it have only
made him stronger?

And in _The Power that Preserves_, after Covenant has beaten
Foul, Foul says:

"I tell you plainly, groveler-- Despite such as mine is the
only true fruit of experience and insight. In time you will not
do otherwise. You will become a shadow of what I am-- you
will be a despiser without the courage to despise. Continue,
groveler. Destroy my work if you must-- slay me if you can--
but make an end! I am weary of your shallow misperception."

I think that means that Foul believes that wild magic can do what
Earthpower cannot-- destroy him.

Covenant believes that he can't-- that Foul will only come back
stronger, but that's just Covenant's gut reaction. He had no lore
or knowledge to back that up.

Did the Creator ever confirm Covenant's belief that Foul was
indestructible, that Despite was internal?

[caamora]

This has a familiar ring to it. Isn't LF immortal, like the Creator? Aren't they brothers?

[KaosArcana]

caamora asked:

This has a familiar ring to it. Isn't LF immortal, like the Creator? Aren't they brothers?

The legends were unclear as to whether or not Foul was Ceator's
literal brother or a part of himself that he cast out when he discovered
the banes that Foul had put within the Earth.

[Fist and Faith]

So the question arises: just what is that Power that upholds Foul? Is it because his Despite Incarnate? Perhaps. But ...

My musings on the subject are what might be called the Laws of Creation. One of which demands the existence of Choice. I don't see the point of creating beings that do not have the ability to make choices. We do that when we write stories. The characters we create "do" and "think" exactly and only what we want them to, because that's all we are capable of. But if I had the ability to actually create beings, I'd certainly give them the ability to choose. And the fundamental choice is between good and evil. And you have to <I>have</I> both in order to choose between them.

"True. I was reduced for a time. I have spent a thousand years gnawing my desires like a beaten cur."

Why would the Ritual of Desecration-- the ultimate act of despair--
reduce Foul's power if he was Despite itself? Shouldnt it have only
made him stronger?

I think that means that Foul believes that wild magic can do what Earthpower cannot-- destroy him.

Hard to say. As you quoted, Foul said, "slay me <I>if you can</I>." He may have thought it impossible, and was goading TC to try, hoping for some consequence of the attempt that would benefit him.

Covenant believes that he can't-- that Foul will only come back stronger, but that's just Covenant's gut reaction. He had no lore or knowledge to back that up.

It's possible that he had <I>much</I> knowledge to back it up. The Creator told him, "Your knowledge of your illness made you wise." We know that he was talking about how Covenant was able to <I>resist</I> despite and despair. But maybe he also had greater knowledge of the nature of these things, and was able to see that Foul was beyond destruction as long as any of these negative emotions existed anywhere. That Foul was just a physical manifestation of them, and since they cannot be destroyed, neither can he.

Did the Creator ever confirm Covenant's belief that Foul was indestructible, that Despite was internal?

I think that he did confirm that Foul was indestructible, although I don't think he addressed the "internal" issue. He said:

There was great hazard - risk for the world which I made - risk even for me. Had my enemy gained the white wild magic gold, he would have unloosed himself from the Earth - destroyed it so that he might hurl himself against me."

If the Creator was able to destroy Foul, I don't think he would have considered Foul to have been a risk to himself.

[vt53]

Foul is indistructable in the land/earth, he is from outside, like the creator, and therefore his existance is beyond the land.

Foul represents the fact that even in the creators universe there is "Good and Evil", that there is no escape from the paradox- you cannot have good without evil.

Covenant could only break the arch of time which holds the earth if he allowed/used the wild magic to try to defeat the dispiser. I do remember clues as to what would happen if the arch is broken, in TPTP we are told that if the despiser were released from his prison on earth he would be free to currupt the creators universe.

In essence the creator is using the earth as a means to defend his universe.

This would leave me to say that the dispiser cannot be destroyed in the creator's universe either. Foul, like Satan in this world (If you beleive that particular mythology of this world), is a creature of this higher level of existance; as fundimental as the creator himself.

[ceallaighq]

Kaos,

I always thought it was strange that the Ritual would weaken Foul too. I would have thought it would be his ultimate triumph. So we have to assume that in addition to the desparation of the act, there was also hope, hope that it would destroy Foul utterly.

[Zahir]

My own interpretation is that Foul's basic existence is upheld by powers and rules that interact but are more powerful than those of the Earth. Something akin to Wild Magic.

The Ritual of Desecration seemed to me a straightforward, if massive and negative, use of the Earthpower, triggered by the passions of those wielding it. Foul was reduced by it, because he's not immune to Earthpower. It just cannot kill him. Being ancient, he bided his time, knowing he would eventually return.

More curious to me is that he agreed to do the ritual in the first place. I put that down to (1) Lust to see Kevin commit desecration, and (2) Realization that the Lords could still defeat him--although none of them realized it yet. Perhaps if they truly mastered their lore to give full expression to the love of the Land, that would have ultimately daunted him.

But I'm also interpreting Covenant's words in a different way. The harm Foul did was more than simple direct damage. He had changed the Lords, taught them hatred so that it burned in them. Covenant's actions were to do more than simply defeat Foul, but also heal the harm done. More, methinks on some level he realized that by simply giving in to his own anger and hatred, he was giving in to his own Despiser. Kill Foul and you become Foul--at least if you have a White Gold Ring. It isn't Foul that's the real enemy--it is Despite.

[amanibhavam]

Is it maybe possible that Foul had foressen that after a process so violent as the RoD the New Lords would swear an OoP and it would help him to try to destroy them?

[Revan]

I think that means that Foul believes that wild magic can do what
Earthpower cannot-- destroy him.

he did not know that the very
Law which he served preserved me through the cataclysm,
though all but a few of his own people and works were stricken
into dust.

Remember the paradox
the wild magic is a paradox
because power cannot exist without law
yet wild magic has no law

wild magic might be able to destroy foul because it has no law, therefore the law that upholds foul doesn't include the white gold

[Ryzel]

In many ways Lord Foul is exactly like the wild magic. He can be influenced by earthpower, but he does not follow the laws of the earthpower.

I believe that as LF was imprisoned by the Creator it was necessary to create for him a form which would be his prison. What this would mean is that the LF that was the creators 'brother' is not the same kind of being which we see in the Land. In many cases that being is the prison itself, if that makes sense to you. And what this means is that if someone actually managed to kill LF he would be FREE, without needing to crack the arch of time. As this would seem like a pretty easy way to escape I think that the power which upholds Fouls life is actually the wild magic itself, as it is the only thing which possibly could be powerful enough to hold him captive in his present state.

[Fist and Faith]

I believe that as LF was imprisoned by the Creator it was necessary to create for him a form which would be his prison. What this would mean is that the LF that was the creators 'brother' is not the same kind of being which we see in the Land. In many cases that being is the prison itself, if that makes sense to you.

Nice thought. It reminds me of <U>A Wrinkle in Time</U>, where they go to a reality that only has two dimensions. Their being is "translated" to fit into that reality.

And what this means is that if someone actually managed to kill LF he would be FREE, without needing to crack the arch of time.

That's certainly one possibility. But another is that Foul could not exist as the being he now is without being subject to various laws. In <I>City of Angels</I>, Nicholas Cage couldn't become human <B>and</B> retain his immortality. He had to give up the one for the other. Foul may not have chosen his state, but he may still be subject to its laws. Granted, it's not as easy as killing him, since nothing known on that Earth can do it, but maybe if he was somehow killed, he'd be dead.

As this would seem like a pretty easy way to escape I think that the power which upholds Fouls life is actually the wild magic itself, as it is the only thing which possibly could be powerful enough to hold him captive in his present state.

Here's a thought. Foul wanted Covenant to fight the worm at the One Tree, knowing that it would break the Arch. Maybe that's why, at the end of TPTP, he said, "slay me, if you can." Maybe he still had power to fight back hard enough to do the same thing. But Covenant refused to try to kill him, he only contained him so that Foamfollower and the Lords could diminish him. Binding Foul was maybe not as much a strain on the Arch as it would have been if the two of them threw blasts at each other.

[Ryzel]

That's certainly one possibility. But another is that Foul could not exist as the being he now is without being subject to various laws. In <I>City of Angels</I>, Nicholas Cage couldn't become human <B>and</B> retain his immortality. He had to give up the one for the other. Foul may not have chosen his state, but he may still be subject to its laws. Granted, it's not as easy as killing him, since nothing known on that Earth can do it, but maybe if he was somehow killed, he'd be dead.

He may not be subject to any laws as we understand laws in the context of the Land. He might have been speaking metaphorically when he said that "the law that upholds me has stood since the beginning of time", or he might simply have been lying. But if he is not subject to any laws it also stands to reason that he cannot really be killed, as death is subject to laws.

As this would seem like a pretty easy way to escape I think that the power which upholds Fouls life is actually the wild magic itself, as it is the only thing which possibly could be powerful enough to hold him captive in his present state.

Here's a thought. Foul wanted Covenant to fight the worm at the One Tree, knowing that it would break the Arch. Maybe that's why, at the end of TPTP, he said, "slay me, if you can." Maybe he still had power to fight back hard enough to do the same thing. But Covenant refused to try to kill him, he only contained him so that Foamfollower and the Lords could diminish him. Binding Foul was maybe not as much a strain on the Arch as it would have been if the two of them threw blasts at each other.

I think LF was just mocking Covenant in TPTP because he knew that Covenant did not have the control necessary to actually do it. Especially since Foul had the stone at that time.

[KaosArcana]

Ryzel:

He may not be subject to any laws as we understand laws in the context of the Land. He might have been speaking metaphorically when he said that "the law that upholds me has stood since the beginning of time", or he might simply have been lying. But if he is not subject to any laws it also stands to reason that he cannot really be killed, as death is subject to laws.

Except the white gold isn't bound by the strictures of Earthpower or
Law.

[Ryzel]

Except the white gold isn't bound by the strictures of Earthpower or
Law.

It is not white gold that has no law, it is the wild magic that has no law if I remember correctly. But that is not the point I am trying to make here. My point is that for Foul to actually die, in the Land, he would have to be subject to the laws of the Earth which govern life and death there.

Spoiler

Because the law of death was broken by Elena and the law of life was broken by Sunder we know that there are laws which govern death and dying.

We also know that these laws were supported by the staff of law, because this is a major point in the second chronicles and we know that Lord Foul himself could not (or at least did not) wield the staff himself.

I draw this conclusion from the fact that LF knew all along (an assumption) where the Illearth Stone was buried but was unable to get at it (another assumption) while Drool was able to get it in a few short weeks with the staff. I think it is a reasonable conclusion to draw that LF was not capable of wielding the staff himself.

We also know that the staff of law is a physical embodiment of law (several people say so) and the logical conclusion to this is that if LF is not subject to the laws which the staff upholds this is also the reason why he cannot use the staff himself.

And so, if he is not subject to the law of death dying will not stop him and if he is not subject to the staff of life nothing will stop him from rising from the dead to continue his work.

And where does wild magic come into this? Wild magic has no law, in effect and capability it surpasses all the natural laws of creation. But this does not mean that wild magic is capable of creating laws of its own accord and to meaningfully kill LF this is what one would have to do.

Spoiler

Note that Linden required both wild magic, health sense (earthpower), lore (Vain) and earthpower (Findail) to make a new staff of law. And still she could (or would) not repair the damage to the laws that had already been broken in the land.

[KaosArcana]

Ryzel:

It is not white gold that has no law, it is the wild magic that has no law if I remember correctly. But that is not the point I am trying to make here. My point is that for Foul to actually die, in the Land, he would have to be subject to the laws of the Earth which govern life and death there.

I disagree for a couple of different reasons.

1) Foul himself thought it was possible that wild magic could destroy
him. You can say that he was lying to Covenant, but did Foul ever
directly lie to Covenant? Offhand, I can't recall him doing so.

2) In the Second Chronicles, Covenant himself clearly believes he
could have destroyed Foul in Foul's Creche. I can't find my copy
of _The Wounded Land_ at the moment, but there's a scene where
Covenant thinks something along the lines that he had withheld the
killing blow from Foul, making himself ultimately cuplable for
whatever harm Foul would do in the future because he truly
believed that Foul was a reflection of his own inner Despiser and
that killing Foul would have ultimately cost him the disclipine he
needed to survive his life.

We also know that the staff of law is a physical embodiment of law (several people say so) and the logical conclusion to this is that if LF is not subject to the laws which the staff upholds this is also the reason why he cannot use the staff himself.

I don't the Staff was a physical emobidment of Law ... if that was the
case then when Covenant destroyed the Staff there would have been
no Law at all in the Land. Instead, it became a vital tool that
strengthened it, and the Staff's destruction weakened the Law but
did not destroy it. It took hundreds if not thousands of years for
Foul to corrupt the Earthpower enough to create the Sunbane.

And where does wild magic come into this? Wild magic has no law, in effect and capability it surpasses all the natural laws of creation. But this does not mean that wild magic is capable of creating laws of its own accord and to meaningfully kill LF this is what one would have to do.

If you surpass something, you are beyond all restrictions. Maybe it
boils down to what you believe about Foul, but remember what Foul
said: "The very Law which he served preserved me through the
cataclysm."

Foul is stating that he was subject to Law in the sense that it
preserves him through the ROD. If Law has any effect on him
at all, I would say that he was subject to the possibility of death
and dying.


I'd comment on your spoiler hidden comments, but I don't know how
to do so in a fashion that preserves it.

[Fist and Faith]

Lot's of stuff in the last few posts! Where to begin?! (Clearly, I don't know where to end! I just couldn't stop myself with this post! But you all know me by now. )

I don't think Foul ever lied to Covenant. I think Foul figured greater despair results from knowing exactly what is going to happen, but knowing that you are unable to prevent it. And worse, if your choices actually help him! Plus, everything Foul ever said agreed with the knowledge that the Lords and people of the Land got from other sources. (Although I suppose Foul may have secretly been behind all their other sources.)



Among others, the Creator, Foul, and the specters of the Lords at the end or TPTP all believed that Covenant could kill Foul. What this means is unknown. Maybe Despite will always return, as Covenant believed. But maybe it would have to start again, a different manifestation of Despite. And maybe it would be without Foul's memories, or even knowledge of Foul. Who knows. Maybe it would even know its own nature and existence well enough to say, "I'm too young. Despite always exists, but I have no memory prior to such-and-such a date. There must have been a previous Despiser."

Or maybe Despite will NOT always return. Maybe if Covenant killed Foul, there would be no more strife anywhere. Maybe it would be a Land of love. The ur-viles would live in Revelstone with everyone else. Probably all vegetarians. I don't know.

And maybe "slay me if you can" meant "if you have the guts." Or maybe Foul knew that Covenant had the power, but doubted that he had the understanding that would be necessary to do the job. But Foul did <I>not</I> have the Stone at the time. First, Covenant physically separated Foul from the Stone, making Foul's control over it "less perfect". Then he formed "a wall of might between Lord Foul and the Stone. Lord Foul shrieked, tried frantically to regain the Stone. But he was too late. In an instant, Covenant's force had surrounded Lord Foul." (Although just before the battle started, Foul had said, "You know that you cannot stand against me. In my own name I am wholly your superior. And I possess the Illearth Stone." So Foul either didn't know how powerful the wild magic was - which is not likely - or he lied to Covenant. hmmm)

I don't the Staff was a physical embodiment of Law ...

It was, indeed.

And because Earthpower was the strength of mystery and spirit, the Staff became the thing it served. It was the Law; the Law was incarnate in the Starff. The tool and its purpose were one.

if that was the case then when Covenant destroyed the Staff there would have been no Law at all in the Land. Instead, it became a vital tool that strengthened it, and the Staff's destruction weakened the Law but did not destroy it. It took hundreds if not thousands of years for Foul to corrupt the Earthpower enough to create the Sunbane.

Maybe it was all running on momentum. Maybe the Law was still there, but was now <I>able</I> to be perverted. It's kind of a huge thing, so it took a long time to pervert it. But when the Staff existed, it could not be perverted. I'm thinking of the Staff as a kind of book that could not be written in or erased. Foul could try to change something, but the book's words will not change. So the attempt fails.

The Sea, on the other hand, had a Law of its own. It didn't follow the same Law as the Earthpower, and was not supported by the Staff. And so when Kinslaughterer was summoning a tsunami, Hyrim said:

"We must stop him! He violates the sea! If he succeeds - if he bends the Sea to his will - the Law that preserves it will be broken. It will serve the Despiser like another Raver!"

Ryzel, I don't think I usually disagree with you as much as I do in this thread.

1) I do not think that the Staff supported the Laws of Death or Life. I think the Laws of the Earthpower, of Death, of Life, of the Sea, and many others, are all separate, but working under a main system/Law. (Let's call it - oh, I don't know - the Tao. LOL) This is the Law that preserved Foul through the Ritual. It's also what Amok meant by:

"The Seventh Ward may ignore white gold, and the master of white gold may have no use for the Seventh Ward - yet both are power, forms and faces of the one Power of life."

I think that, since these Laws are all operating under the same meta-Law, they can effect each other. So Earthpower was able to effect the Law of Death. (You don't need to use the laws of combustion to stop a combustion engine. A meteorite falling on it will do the trick - because combustion and gravity both operate under the same laws of physics, quantum physics, or whatever it is.) But Elena and Foul were both able to use the Dead <I>before</I> the Staff was destroyed.

2) I don't think that <I>not</I> being subject to laws makes one incapable of using those laws. Geez, this is going to be a weird analogy, but... Maybe there's a creature that is not subject to the law of gravity. It can move in any direction at any time it wants. But it can still knock a glass off of a table if it wants to break the glass. It can still use gravity.

3) I still don't know how you've figured out which laws Foul is subject to, and which he is not. You say, "But if he is not subject to any laws...", but that is clearly not the case. As you said, he may not be the same kind of being that he was before the Creator imprisoned him. His new being is the prison itself, since it is confined to the Earth. But that means he is confined to the Earth's laws. What else could it mean? Maybe he is subject to various laws. Maybe (again) gravity, time, Death, and Life are examples. As long as those Laws exist, he is subject to them. He doesn't levitate, or time-travel. And maybe he <I>can</I> die. Maybe it's just that, since his original nature is from outside the Earth, he cannot be killed by something <I>of</I> the Earth. No amount of physical force or Earthpower can kill him. It takes something <I>not</I> of the Earth to do the trick. Wild magic, for example.


But I think you make a <I>great</I> point about Foul being killed: I agree that he would be able to come back from the dead and wreak havoc. Maybe wild magic could do more than kill him. Maybe it could erase him from existence. Merely dying apparently means that you still exist, but in the state of death. (Or in the land of the dead. Or whatever.) Maybe erasing Despite entirely would be the only way to stop him from either raising from the Dead, or from returning even when the Law of Death still held. And such an act would lead to that "Land of Love" that I mention above.

[Ryzel]

I don't think Foul ever lied to Covenant. I think Foul figured greater despair results from knowing exactly what is going to happen, but knowing that you are unable to prevent it. And worse, if your choices actually help him! Plus, everything Foul ever said agreed with the knowledge that the Lords and people of the Land got from other sources. (Although I suppose Foul may have secretly been behind all their other sources.)

There are few things that LF said which can be proven to be actual lies, that is true. But I feel that extending this to mean that he never lied would be to take it too far.

Among others, the Creator, Foul, and the specters of the Lords at the end or TPTP all believed that Covenant could kill Foul.

I seem to remember that Covenant spends a lot of time considering this in the last chronicles and finally concluding that he made the right choice. I cannot remember exactly how he put it, or where it is, but I think he says something like: "You cannot kill despite like that."

And maybe "slay me if you can" meant "if you have the guts." Or maybe Foul knew that Covenant had the power, but doubted that he had the understanding that would be necessary to do the job.

This is a lot more likely. I think someone says something like that somewhere too.

Maybe it was all running on momentum. Maybe the Law was still there, but was now <I>able</I> to be perverted. It's kind of a huge thing, so it took a long time to pervert it. But when the Staff existed, it could not be perverted. I'm thinking of the Staff as a kind of book that could not be written in or erased. Foul could try to change something, but the book's words will not change. So the attempt fails.

We know that law can exist without the staff. It had done so for ages before Berek made the staff. The interesting question then is: Where was Lord Foul during this time? Anyway I accept that the staff itself is not necessary for the existence or operation of law. Nor could it keep the law from being broken. But apparently it could keep the law from being corrupted, and this might be the most important aspect of its power. I.e. with the staff laws can be broken, but without it they can be changed.

The Sea, on the other hand, had a Law of its own. It didn't follow the same Law as the Earthpower, and was not supported by the Staff. And so when Kinslaughterer was summoning a tsunami, Hyrim said:

"We must stop him! He violates the sea! If he succeeds - if he bends the Sea to his will - the Law that preserves it will be broken. It will serve the Despiser like another Raver!"

Although he said that I do not necessarily accept it as the truth. Primarily because he does not explain why this is so. His percipience might have told him as much but I do not know.

Ryzel, I don't think I usually disagree with you as much as I do in this thread.

We aim to please.

2) I don't think that <I>not</I> being subject to laws makes one incapable of using those laws. Geez, this is going to be a weird analogy, but... Maybe there's a creature that is not subject to the law of gravity. It can move in any direction at any time it wants. But it can still knock a glass off of a table if it wants to break the glass. It can still use gravity.

I do not buy this analogy because the gravity will affect the glass and not the creature itself, however I think LF's immunity is more like diplomatic immunity in that he does not necessarily need to heed the laws, but if he does he will become bound by their strictures. This means that although LF personally may be unbound by the great majority of laws in Creation he cannot really affect it without playing by the rules as it were.

3) I still don't know how you've figured out which laws Foul is subject to, and which he is not. You say, "But if he is not subject to any laws...", but that is clearly not the case. As you said, he may not be the same kind of being that he was before the Creator imprisoned him. His new being is the prison itself, since it is confined to the Earth. But that means he is confined to the Earth's laws. What else could it mean? Maybe he is subject to various laws. Maybe (again) gravity, time, Death, and Life are examples. As long as those Laws exist, he is subject to them. He doesn't levitate, or time-travel. And maybe he <I>can</I> die. Maybe it's just that, since his original nature is from outside the Earth, he cannot be killed by something <I>of</I> the Earth. No amount of physical force or Earthpower can kill him. It takes something <I>not</I> of the Earth to do the trick. Wild magic, for example.

I am just generalizing about the laws. Obviously LF is subject to many of the basic laws of creation. Because we know so little about the laws it is necessary to make some assuptions about them and my assumption here is that LF is subject to some but not all of the laws of creation. On the other hand: his tools and dupes and subjects are indeed subjects of all the laws of creation and can only operate within those boundaries.

But I think you make a <I>great</I> point about Foul being killed: I agree that he would be able to come back from the dead and wreak havoc. Maybe wild magic could do more than kill him. Maybe it could erase him from existence. Merely dying apparently means that you still exist, but in the state of death. (Or in the land of the dead. Or whatever.) Maybe erasing Despite entirely would be the only way to stop him from either raising from the Dead, or from returning even when the Law of Death still held. And such an act would lead to that "Land of Love" that I mention above.

Have you given any thought to why the Land is the centre of attention of these things? The world is wide and full of other lands an people, but it is only against the land that Foul exercises his despite and this for a period of maybe 10000+ years.

[[Syl]]

Working on a thought experiment of sorts here...

Obviously, the greatest binding factor on Foul is the Arch of Time, so I would propose that the AoT is the source or embodiment of all laws, or that all laws spring from Time (and about the gravity thing, if you've studied that side of physics, you know that gravity is an effect of time).

White gold is the keystone, and white gold is not bound by law. Chaos (in the greek sense of the word) knows no law, yet gives birth to creation and law, springing forth like twins, or like legs of an arch. Developing from and supporting the keystone would be Earthpower/law (which the Staff of Law buttresses, makes more solid and impermeable... like re-bar in a cinder block). Within or extending from this would be lesser laws such as Life, Death, Sea, et al, any of which could be broken, yet would only weaken the arch (make it unstable), not topple it.

Not a perfect theory, but the foundation (pun intended) is solid.

[KaosArcana]

Ryzel:

There are few things that LF said which can be proven to be actual lies, that is true. But I feel that extending this to mean that he never lied would be to take it too far.

We know that he lied to Kevin when he pretended to be a friend of
the Land, but I can't recall him ever lying directly to Covenant.

Ryzel again:

Fist and Faith wrote:
Among others, the Creator, Foul, and the specters of the Lords at the end or TPTP all believed that Covenant could kill Foul.


I seem to remember that Covenant spends a lot of time considering this in the last chronicles and finally concluding that he made the right choice. I cannot remember exactly how he put it, or where it is, but I think he says something like: "You cannot kill despite like that."

Ah, but was he right?

The dead High Lords believed otherwise. Foul seemed to think that it
was possible. I can't recall the Creator saying one way or the other.

As I recall it, Covenant later rationalized his withholding the killing
blow against Foul by saying that he believed it would ultimately lead
to his own self destruction. In essence, he believed that Foul was
right: that he would become no better than the Despiser.

(I really have to dig out my copy of _The Wounded Land._ I wish the
SF bookclub would get the Second Chronicles out in an omnibus.)

The thing about Foul is that he seems to have too much personality
for me to buy that he's some kind of personification of despite. He
hungers for freedom. He covets the white gold. He hates Covenant,
the Creator, and the Land. He seems too much like a person to me
to seem like some kind of impersonal force that could survive
everything.

I do like Fist and Faith's idea that a new Despiser might spontaneously
arise.


Ryzel:

Fist and Faith wrote:
The Sea, on the other hand, had a Law of its own. It didn't follow the same Law as the Earthpower, and was not supported by the Staff. And so when Kinslaughterer was summoning a tsunami, Hyrim said: Quote:
"We must stop him! He violates the sea! If he succeeds - if he bends the Sea to his will - the Law that preserves it will be broken. It will serve the Despiser like another Raver!"



Although he said that I do not necessarily accept it as the truth. Primarily because he does not explain why this is so. His percipience might have told him as much but I do not know.

I agree here that the whole "Raver breaking the sea" seemed to come
out of left field. If it was that vital, why didn't Kinslaughterer kill the
Bloodguard and Hyrim when he had a chance? Why didn't Foul have
Satansfist break the sea-- he certainly would have had a chance in
the years between the _Illearth War_ and _The Power that Preserves._

I believe that it was all a feint. Foul sacrificed a Giant-Raver in order
to get a piece of the Illearth Stone in the hands of some Bloodguard.
He wanted them to have it.

[Fist and Faith]

Working on a thought experiment of sorts here...

Obviously, the greatest binding factor on Foul is the Arch of Time, so I would propose that the AoT is the source or embodiment of all laws, or that all laws spring from Time

Thank you, my friend, for proving my point. The first thing the Creator built was the Arch of Time. Everything else, all laws and systems, operate within the AoT. It is the meta-Law I had in mind. And, in case it has escaped anyone's notice, if you scramble the letters AOT, what do you get?

Oh for God's sake... No, not OAT!!! Try again!!!

TA DA!!

(and about the gravity thing, if you've studied that side of physics, you know that gravity is an effect of time).

I have NOT studied that side of physics. But I know that, in our reality at least (I don't know about the Land's) space, time, and gravity (among other things) cannot be separated. Although few understand why (and I'm not one of those few), many people have heard that time passes at different rates for those travelling at different speeds. But time also passes at a different rate on top of a mountain than it does at the bottom of the valley below. (I don't suppose we have a physics forum here, do we? )

White gold is the keystone, and white gold is not bound by law. Chaos (in the greek sense of the word) knows no law, yet gives birth to creation and law, springing forth like twins, or like legs of an arch.

Very nice imagery. (And I wonder if we could substitute another word for "Chaos" in your theory. Again, not OAT. )

Developing from and supporting the keystone would be Earthpower/law (which the Staff of Law buttresses, makes more solid and impermeable... like re-bar in a cinder block). Within or extending from this would be lesser laws such as Life, Death, Sea, et al, any of which could be broken, yet would only weaken the arch (make it unstable), not topple it.

Not a perfect theory, but the foundation (pun intended) is solid.

Very nice! But I think that I see the rest of the stones of the Arch as being fairly equal to each other - the laws of Earthpower, Life, and Death, and maybe others. I see the law of the Sea as being lesser, maybe an aspect of one of the stones - although maybe not one of those three stones. But all that's just the first thing that popped into my head when I read your theory. Not like I can argue for it.


Ryzel,
I know it's kinda stupid of me to keep arguing the point, but I've been accused of worse than stupidity in my lifetime. I just don't see that we cannot use things that we are not subject to. (And there's still the matter of exactly what laws of the Land's Earth Foul was subject to.)

It's stupid of me because I agree that Foul could not use the Staff. I can't imagine that he wouldn't have if he could. I just disagree with your reasoning. And just for the hell of it, I'll explain mine.

Because it is his nature, the Creator made things certain ways. Love, Law, Happiness... He didn't do it thinking, "Ha! My brother is going to hate this!" He didn't even have Despite in mind while he was creating. He just did what he did because of what he is. It's the way he is and thinks, and it wouldn't have occurred to him to do it otherwise.

The Creator's opposite is Foul. So Foul's nature is opposed to the Laws that the Creator set in place. Now, Foul was a Lord. I assume this means he could use the Earthpower and Kevin's Lore. It not, why was he a Lord? He had the strength to use the Earthpower, even though its Law was probably fighting him the whole time. But I imagine it's an entirely different matter to use the very embodiment of that Law.

However, your idea that Foul could not use the laws without playing by them is compelling. The way you worded it there makes me think about your theory in a new light.

Have you given any thought to why the Land is the centre of attention of these things? The world is wide and full of other lands an people, but it is only against the land that Foul exercises his despite and this for a period of maybe 10000+ years.

I have wondered about that. And I think it might tie into your question about where Foul was back before Berek made the Staff. I imagine Foul hated the One Forest, because it's beauty was beyond his ability to corrupt. How do you corrupt a tree? So he was elsewhere, corrupting humans, which is notoriously easy to do. Then he sent them to the Land to destroy the One Forest. As Mhoram told Covenant:

"Despite was the bane of men. It came with them into the Land from the cold anguish of the north, and from the hungry kingdom of the south."

And things like the EarthBlood and Glimmermere can help the Land recover if he isn't there keeping an eye on things.

The dead High Lords believed otherwise. Foul seemed to think that it was possible. I can't recall the Creator saying one way or the other.

Me either. I'm just saying that because Foul told Covenant that the Creator chose Covenant to destroy him (Foul). I'm assuming Foul wasn't lying, and that he knew what the Creator had in mind.

I believe that it was all a feint. Foul sacrificed a Giant-Raver in order to get a piece of the Illearth Stone in the hands of some Bloodguard. He wanted them to have it.

I think Foul would have been happy either way. A no-lose situation for him.