George R.R. Martin and his Professionalism.

[FizbansTalking_Hat]

Over at the Terry Brooks Forum (Yes, yes, snicker if you will but I am a member, anyways.) Over at that forum there has been an interesting discussion concerning Mr. George R.R. Martin and I thought that I'd repost what that member said and see what type of comments you guys would give. Keep in mind I didn't write the following, another member did, I just wanted to see what people think about it, I don't agree wiht the view tha tthis particular member has taken, but to eahc their own. Cheers.

His last update was five months ago. I don't care about the other shyte on his page about his merchandising or his conventions. I don't care about the things that take him away from writing. January was the last time he mentioned CROWS, and even he knows how late he is. I hope he loses all money from the publisher when it comes to his manuscript being delivered on time - even though royalties will make up for it in the end.

If he can't make a deadline, then he isn't being professional. The art of writing and making it the best it can be is fine. I can make the best book in the world if given a lifetime to perfect it. Look at Susannah Clarke. Over ten years of work to produce it. Does that make it right? No. It doesn't. It means the writer doesn't know what he is doing with his story and writing, and that is scary.

I don't understand why some of you love this series so much when the very real possiblitiy exists he is going to let us all down because he obviously has no idea how to even finish off a few chapters to wrap up a book.

Just my opinion. I loved the first book, and I know the next two will be great. But he is screwing up. I feel sorry for Bantam. And I feel sorry for all the fans. I hope he gets to feel some of that pain.


PS: Don't get me wrong, he is a great writer. I'm just saying he isn't professional.

---

This isn't about his writing - this is about his professionalism. He knows it. We know it. For those of you who don't know how the book business world works, an author has a contract for multiple books and he must deliver a general outline on time, he must deliver the manuscript on time, he must deliver his edit proofs on time, and he must deliver the final piece on time, for him to get paid for the delivery of a completed manuscript. This is always done on a certain date. If the manuscript is not delivered by that date, the author gets docked financially for his lateness.

Martin has assuredly gone beyond this point. Therefore, and no argument can happen with this, he is unprofessional. He is hurting his publisher's sales as well as his fanbase as well as his own pocket book. These are facts, undeniable facts.

Most of you are mixing up your fandom with these facts. He is a great writer - I have never contradicted that. He just isn't a professional writer, at least not where CROWS is concerned. This is a fact, and he knows it. We know it.

When it comes to other writers producing crap, I don't care about those other writers. Focus on the situation - Martin is LATE. There is no getting around it. I don't care about this personal life either or what he does with it. All I know is he can't seem to finish a BOOK on time!

As an FYI, if I were to remove all the posts on this Forum that were "tasteless," I'd have to remove the entire GENERAL DISCUSSION section, as well as a majority of the posts in the other Forums. Should I do that? I didn't think so. And just because I am a moderator here, I can post whatever thoughts I want to as long as they fall within the parameters of the Guidelines stipulated in the Forum Rules. I have followed them, and will continue to follow them. If you can show me what rules I have broken, then show me. But don't chastise me for having a well thought out opinion that contradicts your own.

This isn't to antagonize anyone. It is an open discussion as are all things here. Just realize there is no intent on my part. This is a serious issue, especially for those of you who want to be writers and look up to this guy. You can look up to the writing, but not the professionalism of it.

PS: And for those of you who may wonder about this, in the fantasy business world, the release of CROWS is almost as laughable as the decline of Robert Jordan. That's how severe this is for the real shakers in the fantasy genre.

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[variol son]

Interesting. A little nastier than it needs to be, but there are valid points in there.

My only question is; how does this person know what the "real shakers in the fantsy genre" are thinking? Does he give any credentials on the site?

Sum sui generis
Vs

[FizbansTalking_Hat]

This is what he comments on further along in the discussion.

340? I don't think so. Terry's novels are probably on average 390 pages. Tanequil was the shortest of the last six at 357 pages. Three of them were right at 400 pages.

Terry is not an epic writer, so it is hard pressing to put him in with the likes of Martin, Williams, or Erikson. Those authors are wordsmiths. Terry has never and will never be a wordsmith. If anything, he is a minimalist writer. He is a storyteller who tells his story straight and leaves out all the stuff that doesn't matter. He usually only has two or three points of view in this stories. He has no desire to tackle 20 characters in an epic weaving masterpiece. As he has said numerous times, he just wants to be read.

Therefore, he puts out his books on time. He wants to be read.

Martin on the other hand...

Eradan has made a good point. The amount of pages are closely the same. I'd feel a whole lot better about Martin's professionalism if he had made his series a 10 book series, putting out a 500 page book every other year or every year. The publisher would be happier, the fans would be happier, he'd get paid for delivering a manuscript on time. *grins* But he has chosen another route, a route of his making true, but still another route.

And I'm fine with that. I really am. It's his choice on how he wants to write his series of books. He could wait 15 years for it to happen. But people in the book business are not happy about it. That's all I was ever trying to say with this thread. As a bookseller I'm not happy. And as a fan, I'm not happy. Still a good writer, but a bad business-man.

Martin is a far more interesting writer to read than Terry because I too like the epic story Stee, but at least I get to read Terry's stories more often and enjoy his prose every year, enjoying what he has to offer and why he's offering it.

PS: By the way, Terry doesn't feel as though he rushes anything out. He has a contract obligation and he meets it. As we speak right now, he is off in the wilds of Montana trying to figure out a sticky problem he is having with the end of the first book. He feels as though he has fallen behind on his new book. But he spends extra days and extra hours of his life making up for it so he doesn't fall behind. It sometimes hurts his life plans, but he sticks to his contract because its business too. At the end of the process, there isn't one thing Terry would change about his story or writing - it is the best effort he can make and he has made it.

My whole view is basically as follows.

"Terry is not an epic writer, so it is hard pressing to put him in with the likes of Martin, Williams, or Erikson. Those authors are wordsmiths. Terry has never and will never be a wordsmith."

With that being said, I think that its unfair to expect him to write in the same style as Terry Brooks. The way that Martin writes is different, his POV style for instance, to tie in so many threads and so many veiws of a unique story is difficult, its not the same way that Brooks writes, and I'd expect that the writing process for Brooks who writes 250-350 pages novels to be much quicker than the 800+ pages that Martin churns out.

With your comments on his professionalism, well maybe he has missed his publishing dates but maybe he's worked out his own system with the people he works with. It is obvious that he has a strong fan base and with that being said the publishers and the company he works with are well aware of the number of fans that are pleased with his work and his story. Sure most of us are upset that he's taking so long, I am impatient like the rest of everyone else but most people who have read the oboks understand that he is putting together quite the complex piece of fiction together and I for one am willing to wait as long as it takes.

But to each their own, cheers.

[duchess of malfi]

Well, my main thought on this is that I would rather have a high quality book that comes to me after the publishing deadline than a book which comes out on schedule but seems rushed and ill written and/or edited.

Let Martin take as long as he wishes, as long as his high quality is maintained.

[variol son]

This is true. However, The Gap Cycle shows that it doesn't have to take so long.

The Real Story shows the copywrite year as being 1990, Forbidden Knowledge 1991, A Dark and Hungry God Arises 1992, Chaos and Order 1994 and This Day all Gods Die 1996.

That means that Forbidden Knowledge and A Dark and Hungry God Arises each took around a year to write, and Chaos and Order and This Day all Gods Die each took about two years. That's not very long, considering that The Gap Cycle has a similar number of POV's to A Song of Ice and Fire.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Variol Farseer]

These fans seem to feel that it's better to rush and put out a shoddy product on time than to take your time and put out a good product when you're ready. I have no use for this attitude. They also feel that it's more professional to do shoddy work in a hurry, which I consider a totally indefensible position. A real pro doesn't take millions of dollars for an inferior product. George R.R. Martin is wrestling with a story that is enormously complex, technically demanding, and highly original — three things that Terry Brooks has never even attempted to do. I understand that his health is poor, and he is no longer exactly young. His readers can wait while he finishes the next book to his satisfaction, and have demonstrated their willingness to wait. (It's not as if there were any shortage of other books for them to read in the meantime.) If some people don't like waiting for quality work, well . . . they can go and be Terry Brooks fans instead.

Leonardo da Vinci took three years to paint The Last Supper, and the prior who commissioned the work complained mightily about his slowness. Probably he called Leonardo unprofessional. But the painting was eventually finished, and immediately took its place among the masterpieces of Renaissance art. Five centuries later, it has given pleasure and inspiration to millions of people, and is universally acknowledged as a classic. Leonardo could have slapped some paint on the refectory wall in a few weeks, but it would have been mediocre work, no credit to the artist or the patron, and it would have been forgotten and painted over long ago.

Let George R.R. Martin take his cue from Leonardo and ignore the impatient prior, I say. There are worse things for an author than to be called unprofessional by people who are not professionals themselves.

[Encryptic]

The OP (Not Fizban, the other guy he quoted) on the other forum sounds like an ass. Basically, his attitude seems to be "Who cares if the book sucks, as long as he makes the deadline". I realize the publisher is in the business of making money, but they're just going to hurt themselves if they insist on putting out something that wasn't ready. Martin has established a loyal fan base and they're certainly not going to give up on the series at the drop of a hat.

Geez....I'm certainly not alone in wishing that Feast was already out, but c'mon...I'd much rather wait longer if it means he has time to polish it and make it right. If anything, I'd hope the publisher would realize that pushing Martin to get something out yesterday will kill sales in the long run if his fan base becomes disillusioned with the series. Look at the poor reception that Jordan has gotten lately, for instance. Obviously he (and Tor?) are listening, hence the announcement that he's going to take some real time to edit the next WoT book before it goes out.

As far as I'm concerned, Brooks is still a mediocre author when compared to some of the other heavyweights in the genre. So he doesn't write massive epics that take days to read and maybe he kills himself to get the book out on time, but he's still not that good IMHO. Martin may be taking longer, but given the nature of his writing, this is totally understandable. I can't even fathom the work it must take to write so many plotlines in a single book and weave them all together so seamlessly.

Not to mention, I'm curious if this person actually has any inside knowledge of the publishing biz, or if he's just pulling crap out of thin air to back his arguments up.

[variol son]

Not to mention, I'm curious if this person actually has any inside knowledge of the publishing biz, or if he's just pulling crap out of thin air to back his arguments up.

My thought exactly.

[Worm of Despite]

These fans seem to feel that it's better to rush and put out a shoddy product on time than to take your time and put out a good product when you're ready. I have no use for this attitude. They also feel that it's more professional to do shoddy work in a hurry, which I consider a totally indefensible position. A real pro doesn't take millions of dollars for an inferior product. George R.R. Martin is wrestling with a story that is enormously complex, technically demanding, and highly original — three things that Terry Brooks has never even attempted to do. I understand that his health is poor, and he is no longer exactly young. His readers can wait while he finishes the next book to his satisfaction, and have demonstrated their willingness to wait. (It's not as if there were any shortage of other books for them to read in the meantime.) If some people don't like waiting for quality work, well . . . they can go and be Terry Brooks fans instead.

Leonardo da Vinci took three years to paint The Last Supper, and the prior who commissioned the work complained mightily about his slowness. Probably he called Leonardo unprofessional. But the painting was eventually finished, and immediately took its place among the masterpieces of Renaissance art. Five centuries later, it has given pleasure and inspiration to millions of people, and is universally acknowledged as a classic. Leonardo could have slapped some paint on the refectory wall in a few weeks, but it would have been mediocre work, no credit to the artist or the patron, and it would have been forgotten and painted over long ago.

Let George R.R. Martin take his cue from Leonardo and ignore the impatient prior, I say. There are worse things for an author than to be called unprofessional by people who are not professionals themselves.

Amen!

[Ainulindale]

His last update was five months ago. I don't care about the other shyte on his page about his merchandising or his conventions. I don't care about the things that take him away from writing. January was the last time he mentioned CROWS, and even he knows how late he is.

George R.R. Martin, nor any other author, is required to keep us or any one else up to date on his progress. At least he doesn't employ a fanboy-go-between-web site adminsitrator to delivers his word on a messagebaord like some authors do.

I hope he loses all money from the publisher when it comes to his manuscript being delivered on time

I think he/she is taking this too seriously, and this is the first proof within his post, that should make us all stop reading, but like most actions based on idiocricy we feel compelled to read on...

I don't understand why some of you love this series so much when the very real possiblitiy exists he is going to let us all down because he obviously has no idea how to even finish off a few chapters to wrap up a book

Because I'd rather read a series by an author who has written 3 superior novels, perhaps representing a new mangnum opus for the sub-genre of epic fantasy then read 8 complete sub-par fan fiction novels Terry Brooks has blessed us with.

If he can't make a deadline, then he isn't being professional. The art of writing and making it the best it can be is fine. I can make the best book in the world if given a lifetime to perfect it. Look at Susannah Clarke.

No he/she can't.

But don't chastise me for having a well thought out opinion that contradicts your own.

I'm still waiting for the one well thought out opinion.

PS: And for those of you who may wonder about this, in the fantasy business world, the release of CROWS is almost as laughable as the decline of Robert Jordan. That's how severe this is for the real shakers in the fantasy genre.

Do the "real shakers" include moderators of the TB Foum now?


The person is a moron, and although I appreciate Fizban giving us the opportunity to marvel at the display, much like we would in the presence of a village idiot - the fact that his/her words are now syndicated on 2 sites is distressing.

I know a couple of the moderators on the TB forum, and can only hope these aren't their words as it wouldlbe hard for me to believe either could be so sophomoric in their thought process.

[variol son]

Ok, don't all attack me. I just want to ask one question.

In a case where an author is taking much longer than expected/hoped to finish a particular novel, what do their publishers do?

Is there pressure applied? Do they just let the author get on with it in the hope that they will finish soon? Does this differ depending on how successful the author is?

Was just wondering really? Draginlily, Myste, can either of you shed some light?

[Variol Farseer]

As far as I can tell, it takes a publisher a couple of years to even notice that a writer is late.

After that, I believe SOP at most houses is to look for scapegoats. Blame flows downhill until somebody gets the sack. The author's agent deflects blame onto others by heroic exertions, but loses clout in the industry, and the author himself suffers a mortal blow to his career, which can only be resurrected if the book, when eventually published, turns out to be a bestseller. At which point all is forgotten, if not forgiven.

Since it would take a medium-sized miracle for GRRM's next book not to be a bestseller, I think everyone involved is safe for now.

[OsRavan]

im only going to make one comment in responce to this, and that is to point out george has not made deadlines and not kept them. Which is what this guy is claiming.. and his reason for calling george unproffessional.

George had stated repeatdly.. in person and on his webpage.. that there is no expected due date for the book and any date put up by amazon or anyone else was purely arbitrary and had nothing to do with his say so.

hence he hasnt been saying "i will finish by this date" and hten breaking his word. yes it took logner then expected. but he never had a solid due date that he overshot. his goal from the start was to work on it untill he was satisfied