the ur-viles

Post by **Revan** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:28 am

throughout the first chronicles there were many people saying the ur-viles were powerful creatures of dark lore. but to me it seemed that they were nothing but annoying little freaks with no eyes who's only power was to spray black acid.
for instance in lord foul's bane, Mhoram said they were powerful; yet during the battle of soaring woodelven they couldn't even kill either Mhoram or the high lord.
now think about it, the lords in the first book did not have the kind of power that you could call useful. During book one Mhoram said something along the lines of "the lords have very little power, and two are at the end of their strength. between the five lords we can barely raise a little plant in trogoth". (apologises for the spelling, and for the incorrectness of the words, i am aware that he did not say those exact things, but i've tried to give you the basics)
so why couldn't these so called "POWERFUL" ur-viles kill two lords who would have trouble getting a blade of grass to grow.

Seems odd.

though buy the time i read the second chronicles, i started for the first time believe they had a little power. with making vain and all. but in the sunbane it was, most likely a lot easier to build something like vain. but i'll give them some credit considering they save the land and all.

Post by **Romeo** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:01 am

I think the new lords underestimated their power. It meant more to them that they could not heal Trothgard than it did that they could use their lore for combat. In fact, it probably disturbed them greatly that they had the power to stand up to a wedge of ur-viles (which required a destructive kind of power), and couldn't directly heal the land (a constructive power).

Post by **Zahir** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:55 pm

Well, it seems to me some things need considering.

First, just because the urviles as a race are powerful doesn't mean every individual urvile wields the same level of lore.

Second, my own impression is that urvile lore is more often used in breeding things like Vain or the Waynhim. Its military uses might be indirect, usually.

Third, the Lords tend to put themselves down simply because they compare themselves to their predecessors in Kevin's time.

JMHO

Post by **Ryzel** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:44 am

I think that Ur-viles as individuals were not very powerful at all, but they were lore-wise as it is said and they had the ability to concentrate their power by using wedges and moving in concert.

As for the battle of Soaring woodhelven that trap was set by Foul,

Spoiler

and he probably needed the company reasonably intact to go into the catacombs to steal the SOL from Drool.

And things have a way of working out they way he wants them.

Post by **Forestal** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 3:03 pm

personally i believe that kevin put more offencive lore into the 1st ward than healing.... for if they didn't find the other wards in time they would at last be able to fight foul with something.

Post by **hamako** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:47 pm

I think the ur viles were a pretty hard bunch, only passed by their relatives the cavewights in terms of physical strength. They seem to me to be like bacteria - not much threat in low numbers but bad news when there's a lot around.

We never get a lot of info about their lore, but they must be fairly sharp to create something as awesome as Vain. Look what he did in Elmesnedene when they tried to capture him. Hard as nails. All this from the ur - viles. Must take some lore to build a creature like that.

If you take the view that Vain is pure Law, I think the ur-viles are something special.

They were more like tools for Foul rather than being independantly malicious. Perhaps they are easily mastered.

The jeherrin give us a pointer to what the ur viles could be capable of too. They weren't too shoddy either.

Post by **Revan** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:39 am

valid points. i might be wrong, but i don't agree with hamako, (to a point). I don't think that the ur-viles were as powerful as you think they were in the second chronicles. the reason i think this is because vain would be a lot harder to build if the sunbane didn't exist. think about it for moment, when covenant went to revelstone and vain found the staff of law's metal rods that bannor took to the lords after the war with foul had ended, it is said that the other works of the lords (such as there staffs and wards) have no use under the sunbane. therefore it symbolizes that the law is no longer there.
This, to my opinion, shows that the ur-viles (in building vain) are not as powerful as you think they are, because there are no Laws, the ur-viles are not limited by law. because irf there were Law, there are only certain things that could be done.
I don't think i'm being very clear. but i've tried to make my point as best as i am able to.

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:41 pm

Forestal wrote:personally i believe that kevin put more offencive lore into the 1st ward than healing.... for if they didn't find the other wards in time they would at last be able to fight foul with something.

I have earlier made the case that Kevin's enactment of the RoD was a clever plot to buy some more time for the land to prepare for the defence against LF. If so it would certainly be logical to do so.

If that is not the case however we must assume that Kevin believed that the RoD would destroy LF, in which case it would not be necessary to put offensive lore into the first ward.

Post by **Forestal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:04 pm

Ryzel wrote: If that is not the case however we must assume that Kevin believed that the RoD would destroy LF, in which case it would not be necessary to put offensive lore into the first ward.

VERY good point... if kevin believed that LF would be destroyed then he wouldn't have had ANY offencive lore in the 1st ward... what would be the use for it?

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:16 pm

Are we ever actually told what sort of Lore Kevin puts in the First Ward? I think someone (Mhoram?) tells TC at some point that there is much Lore involved in healing the Land in the Second, but what's in the First?

Post by **Loredoctor** » Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:16 am

Darth Revan wrote:valid points. i might be wrong, but i don't agree with hamako, (to a point). I don't think that the ur-viles were as powerful as you think they were in the second chronicles. the reason i think this is because vain would be a lot harder to build if the sunbane didn't exist. think about it for moment, when covenant went to revelstone and vain found the staff of law's metal rods that bannor took to the lords after the war with foul had ended, it is said that the other works of the lords (such as there staffs and wards) have no use under the sunbane. therefore it symbolizes that the law is no longer there.
This, to my opinion, shows that the ur-viles (in building vain) are not as powerful as you think they are, because there are no Laws, the ur-viles are not limited by law. because irf there were Law, there are only certain things that could be done.
I don't think i'm being very clear. but i've tried to make my point as best as i am able to.

I like your reasoning in you posts, Darth; you raise some interesting points here.
The way I see it, The Ur-Viles were powerful in the first book simply because they could do so much damage during the Illearth War and the War on Revelstone.
In the second book, they are powerful due to the fact that they created a being who was to become the new Staff of Law. They were also able to resist the sunbane whereas many others couldn't.

Post by **Baradakas** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:01 am

The loremasters were fairly powerful, though, when they formed their wedges. They could bring down a Word, destroy Forbiddings and form Words themselves. I'd say they were fairly powerful anyway, atleast in raw numbers.

But that's just me.

- B

Post by **matrixman** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:16 am

Another good bump to complement the Demondim-spawn thread

Very intriguing line of thought from Lord Revan...

Post by **variol son** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:58 am

I don't actually think that the Sunbane made it any easier for the ur-Viles to create Vain. Instead I think it simply took them that long to work out how to create him. Remember that he is utterly flawless. The Demondim never made anything that even possibly rivalled him, and neither did the Viles before them. So I think it was more a matter of practice, trial and error that took thousands of years until Vain was finally produced, the perfect end result.

Also, perhaps Vain needed a purpose as important as becoming the new Staff of Law in order to be perfect. In which case he could only be created at a time when the white gold was in the Land, or about to come into the Land, since the wild magic provided the force that merged Vain and Findail.

Finally, I believe that the ur-Viles don't seem particularly powerful in the first chronicles because their ultimate purpose in serving Lord Foul was to gain the raw materials for their breeding projects. Therefore, they "held back" as it were, partly because they didn't need to reveal their full power to satisfy the Despiser's demands, and partly because they know that the pinnacle of all their creations will undo much of his evil.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Post by **Revan** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:52 am

Matrixman wrote:Another good bump to complement the Demondim-spawn thread

Very intriguing line of thought from Lord Revan...

These were the days where I posted good posts!

Post by **Baradakas** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:44 pm

YOU STILL DO!!!

Post by **Revan** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:04 am

Baradakas wrote:YOU STILL DO!!!

Liar.

No I don't.

yeah, I've always thought that the fact that the Staff of Law was gone made it easier to make Vain. Because they don't have the boundaries that they did when the Staff od Law was present.

Post by **The Dreaming** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:31 am

We get a direct look at the nature of the Ur-Viles power in WGW

Spoiler

Just look at all the a** the waynhim kicked in the battle against the ice guys. Their power is linked closely to that of the ur-viles, except they serve earthpower and havn't been training for massive war for 5 mellinia like the ur-viles.

During book one Mhoram said something along the lines of "the lords have very little power, and two are at the end of their strength. between the five lords we can barely raise a little plant in trogoth".

You forget (or I miscomprehend) the massive boost in power the lords recieve from the second ward. The lords are able to raise a forest in Trogoth (for some reason in my head it's Trothgard, probably just sloppy reading) Between LFB and TIW.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:59 am

It's Trothgard.

And Welcome to the Watch!! Welcome and True!

Post by **The Dreaming** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:13 pm

I think that this thread deserves a bump due to Runes. Anyone who has read it should have quite a bit to say about them. But guard it with the heaviest spoiler warnings you can.

WARNING RUNES SPOILER!!!!!! DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ RUNES

Spoiler

I think that the power of the Ur-Viles has become really exposed for the first time. Look at the way they were able to protect Lindon in the Ceasure, their ability to produce Vitrim, and their finding of the staff. Their power seems to be as eclectic as that of the Lords.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

the ur-viles

the ur-viles