Can someone explain to me the reasons behind hating Jews?

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Post by Prebe »

Thanks for that info Menoly. I didn't know.

How big a fraction are we talking?

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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Menolly wrote: Uh, actually, many religious Jews are not for the current State of Israel. Because it was not founded by the Messiah...
:o I never knew that.
Interesting.

It's funny about Jews being greedy.
I have many Jewish relatives and I honestly consider many of them "greedy" or money oriented.
(But they also give far more to charity than I do! So what the hell does that tell you about me? More on that below.)

I have another Christian family that I'm very good friends with.
They are EXTREMELY money oriented.
I mean, we can't drive buy a house without one of them guessing how much it cost, for instance.
It's very annoying to be around them some times.
But I think of them as being commendable for being so concerned about money.

So I, who have nothing but highest regard for the faith and historical goodness of the Jewish people, am saddled by this predudice I picked up probably when I was a kid.
How sad.
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Post by Avatar »

Perhaps no other nation scattered across the earth, (what about the Gypsies?), but certainly many "people's" don't have their own country. The San people of my own country for example, were once the sole inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa, before being forced by other, more war-like peoples, (including Europeans) into less and less hospitable habitats.

Native American's are another example. And sure, all those peoples, including the Jews, did to some extent integrate with the countries in which they lived. That's why you get Russian Jews, German Jews, Polish Jews, etc. But above and beyond that, they hold in common a seperate identity. A religious identity that transcends nationalism. And I think that that's a pretty good thing myself.

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Post by Cybrweez »

I see a difference b/w your examples Av and Jews. Native Americans were pushed into the little holes they now have, and really have their own "country" w/in a country (lets call it a reservation). If a few families of Sioux were kicked out and wound up in South Africa, in 2,000 years, would they still long to be reunited w/their Sioux? There's no such thing as Russian Sioux, German Sioux. I suspect there's no such thing as Russian San or German San either.

Actually, I think nationalism is more common and above religious reasons for the Jewish bond. The majority of Jews I know, excluding those from my church, don't know if they even believe in God, whether they are practicing Jews or not. My good friend in college was kosher b/c it gave her a feeling of belonging, as well as the tradition.
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Post by Menolly »

Cybrweez wrote:Actually, I think nationalism is more common and above religious reasons for the Jewish bond. The majority of Jews I know, excluding those from my church, don't know if they even believe in God, whether they are practicing Jews or not. My good friend in college was kosher b/c it gave her a feeling of belonging, as well as the tradition.
:::nodding:::

I think here in the United States, most Jews identify themselves culturally over religiously. Even though I believe Messianic Jews choose to give up Judaism, and should be considered Chr-stian, if they were born to a Jewish mother, or someone who can trace themselves back to a Jewish heritage through their maternal line without interruption (even if a Jew converted before the birth of the next in line, just as long as a somewhere in the maternal line someone born outside the tribes who didn't halachically convert to Judaism isn't involved) then culturally they are a Jew, and are part of the 12 tribes. Someone born and raised non-Jewish, if they find out their maternal line is direct from Jewish heritage, can be accepted as a fully practicing Jew would they choose to become observant, without having to convert.

As far as the percentage of religious Jews against the idea of a non-religious State of Isreal, I have no idea. But perhaps this article could help anyone interested in finding more information.
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Post by Prebe »

(and I thougt religion was simple :) )

Is there such a person as a genetic jew?
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Post by Prebe »

Thanks for the link Menolly. I see now that I have to brush up on my homework. That link reveals more to me (without testing its authenticity) about the state of Israel/Jewry/Zionism than I have ever imagined. It seems a LOT more complex than I thought!

I am flabbergasted....

Without judging I would say, that this is a good example of what kind of mess religion can get you into.

And to day of all days... I can't even begin (Begin :D ) to think how many different opinions there are in Israel to day, when the settlements in Gaza are being cleared.
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Post by Revan »

ChoChiyo wrote:All hating stems from ignorance and fear of the unknown.
No it doesn't. There are many different types of hate. Ignorance and fear of the unknown are just two types; though the majority of hating can be but into these two reasons.



I don't know any Jews personally. And I don't hate Jews; I don't like Jews either, I feel nothing towards them; I have pity for those that suffered in WWII. I know they tend to do well in whatever society they are in (Money wise) and i say: fair play, go for it, if you can be a success, *be* one. Anyone who has a go at Jews for that are beneath my comtempt; so low and small minded there is no point in paying any attention to them.

And Jesus? Get over it, The Jews here now aren't the ones that were there then.
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Post by danlo »

Darth wrote:No it doesn't. There are many different types of faith. Ignorance and fear of the unknown are just two types; though the majority of hating can be but into these two reasons.
Funny I never considered ignorance or fear of the unknown to be faiths. Perhaps you meant to say put instead of but...in any case your wording came out kinda strange...
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Post by [Syl] »

Prebe wrote:(and I thougt religion was simple :) )

Is there such a person as a genetic jew?
Indeed.
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Post by Revan »

danlo wrote:
Darth wrote:No it doesn't. There are many different types of faith. Ignorance and fear of the unknown are just two types; though the majority of hating can be but into these two reasons.
Funny I never considered ignorance or fear of the unknown to be faiths. Perhaps you meant to say put instead of but...in any case your wording came out kinda strange...
It's 2am here, and I'm a wee bit sleep deprived. :P I meant, hate I think. lemme edit....
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Post by danlo »

S'ok bud--I love it when you get on a roll--just don't roll into a wall... :P **hands Darth a cup of coffee**
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Post by Prebe »

Thanks Syl. I knew that population genetic studies had been made that grouped certain jews. The example that this article presents seems extreme, but it looks plausible (this is close to what I do for a living), also considering the more pronounced isolation of this population compared to jews in central Europe or Russia . However, it is worth noticing that this page deals with paternal inheritance, as opposed to the maternal line that menolly mentions.
Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry
To say that there is a "genetic jew" you would need to analyse genetic data (microsatelite data as in this case, or sequence data) from all "ten tribes" and establish that the variation between individuals in this population is smaller that the variation between the ten tribes and the rest of the world.

My point being, that using genetics to tie together a religious population (this is a faith remember?) comes dangerously close to what Hitler did in his eugenic propaganda. Of course with the opposite purpose.
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Post by Menolly »

Woo-hoo! Thank you Syl! I've been looking for a site that discusses this topic for awhile now.
Prebe wrote:However, it is worth noticing that this page deals with paternal inheritance, as opposed to the maternal line that menolly mentions.
Different aspects of the culture, Prebe. Here it gets confusing. Maternal line determines whether you're a Jew or not. Paternal line determines which of the tribes you belong to.

While there are 12 tribes of Israel, most of our knowledge of them has been lost. The Kohanim (supposedly direct descendents of Aaron by paternal line I believe) are traditionally the priests/leaders of the tribes. Recent genetic testing have shown that Jewish males who have been raised with the knowledge that they are Kohanim have the Y chromosome talked about in the article. Currently the Kohanim aren't necessarily the priests/leaders of a congregation; ever since we became a rabbinic tradition instead of a mostly tribal one. Their role now is to say the first blessing over the Torah when it is publicly read and other responsibilities that become a little more esoteric.

The Levites have been kept tracked of as well. Traditionally they were responsible for all the articles of the faith. I guess that's the best way to describe them. Now their role is to say the second blessing over the Torah when it is publicly read. I am unsure of other duties, but there may be others.

The other ten tribes have mixed and mingled, and I don't know if anyone knows that they are descendent from any of them specifically. In congregations, we just refer to the other tribes by one tribal name of Yisroayl. They get the third blessing over the Torah. I am unsure, but I think any subsequent blessings after the first three are given out without regard to tribal affiliation.

I am of the Yisroayl category. My mother was a Bas Kohain (dughter of a kohain), but my paternal grandfather converted to Judaism before marrying my Jewish paternal grandmother, so he, and my father, automatically become Yisroayl, and my tribal lineage comes from my father.

My husband is not Jewish, and has no interest in converting. But, my son is still a Jew, since I am a Jew. He is also a Yisroayl, not because I am and I am the only Jewish parent, but because he was born a Jew without a paternal tribal affiliation, so he automatically is considered a Yisroayl.

Clear as mud? I'll be happy to try and explain further if interested, but that's about as clear as I can get.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

That's interesting. I have sort of wondered about that (Is Judaism a race, a faith, a culture, or a mixture of all three?) for while now.

One of my friends converted to Judaism several years ago. She was at one time engaged to a Jewish man, but broke the engagement when his parents refused to accept her. They had a huge fit when they found out she was a covert and were very nasty, telling her that she was not and could never actually be Jewish, that no one could be Jewish unless they had Jewish ancestry on their mother's side, and that they didn't want "mongrel" grandchildren. :o :o :o

I couldn't blame her for breaking the engagement. I suppose it s possible they might have come around in time and accepted her, but who knows? :hairs: :hairs: :hairs:
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Post by Menolly »

duchess of malfi wrote:One of my friends converted to Judaism several years ago. She was at one time engaged to a Jewish man, but broke the engagement when his parents refused to accept her. They had a huge fit when they found out she was a covert and were very nasty, telling her that she was not and could never actually be Jewish, that no one could be Jewish unless they had Jewish ancestry on their mother's side, and that they didn't want "mongrel" grandchildren. :o :o :o

I couldn't blame her for breaking the engagement. I suppose it s possible they might have come around in time and accepted her, but who knows? :hairs: :hairs: :hairs:
IMO, this is a digusting attitude on the parents part. As Jews, our law says once halachically converted (and you do get arguments between what constitutes a valid conversion within the differrent sects. A Hasid would never accept a convert to Judaism who went through a Reform or Conservative conversion), the convert had no existance before, and they are a 'fresh' Jew. The convert can keep contact with their own non-Jewish family members, but the rest of the community pretty much ignores that facet of the convert's life.

So, a convert is as much a Jew as a born Jew. Those parents were wrong!

The sages even say that when HaShem presented the 10 Commandments at Mt. Sinai, and the souls of all future Jews witnessed this along with the generation present at the time, that even the souls of Jewish converts were present. There is no difference once the dip and snip (well, no snip for the female convert) is done halachically!
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Post by Menolly »

Oh, i wanted to expand upon the concept of a convert being a 'fresh Jew.' My sister and I actually asked this question of our own rabbis (mine in Gator Town and her's in Pittsburgh, and got the same answer, which believe me, is very unusal when you ask for clarification of a question between multiple rabbis...) as it puzzled us.

As I stated above, my mother was a Bas Kohain. This makes her brother, my uncle, a Kohanim. However, while he never converted out of Judaism, he has pretty much renounced it in his own life.

My aunt, his wife, is an Italian-American born Roman Catholic. They have two sons, my cousins.

My sister and I both wondered that if either, or both, of our cousins decided to become Jewish, and converted halachically, would they be Yisroayl like most converts, or since their father is a Kohain, would they take on his tribal affiliation?

Anyone non-Jewish care to guess at the answer?

Also, I can say that I never really got to know my maternal grandparents. While my father, as the son of a convert, was accepted as a Jew, my grandfather, being a Kohain, was not happy that my Mom married a Jew 'beneath her station' as a Bas Kohain. I don't even know if he would have accepted a born Levite. :::shrug:::
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Post by Prebe »

So in other words Menolly (thanks for the most exhaustive explanation) in your opinion, a jew in spirit is as good as a jew in genes (jeans :D)?

RE your question: I think you answered that before. If your cussins are male they would take on his tribal affiliation, if female they would not (paternal inheritance will by definition always be on the Y-chromosome)
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Post by Menolly »

Prebe wrote:So in other words Menolly (thanks for the most exhaustive explanation) in your opinion, a jew in spirit is as good as a jew in genes (jeans :D)?
Only if they go through a halachic conversion, if they weren't born a Jew.
After that, they are the same.
Prebe wrote:RE your question: I think you answered that before. If your cussins are male they would take on his tribal affiliation, if female they would not (paternal inheritance will by definition always be on the Y-chromosome)
Genetically-wise, yes. But culturally- and religiously-wise is what we were asking about. Our question was how would the Jewish community culturally and religiously view them after conversion since their father is Kohanim. Kohanim or Yisroayl?

Keep in mind they are not considered Jewish since their mother is not a Jew. Should they go through a religious conversion, then what are they considered within the Jewish community? Genetic testing is not taken into consideration in traditional tribal lineage in Judaism.
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Post by Prebe »

But culturally- and religiously-wise is what we were asking about. Our question was how would the Jewish community culturally and religiously view them. Kohanim or Yisroayl?
Here I have come to the end of my knowledge, I reluctantly admit, as the braggart I am 8)

Just addig my scientific :2c:
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