100's at Mo. Confederate Ceremony

[dennisrwood]

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[Cail]

Well of course I don't have a problem with this.

[Avatar]

Can't say that I do either. As long as people aren't using it as an excuse for hatred.

--A

[Cail]

Only hatred I'm seeing is directed against the people attending the memorial. It's crap like this that makes the NAACP look foolish.

[Avatar]

NAACP?

Anyway, agreed. People tend to decide for themselves what any given symbol means. Or at least, people try to tell others what it means, and they get to decide to believe them or not.

The report certainly doesn't say anything about the attendees going around shouting racist slogans, trying to enslave people, etc.

That just makes the protestors look like the intolerant ones, not the people they seem to be accusing of such intolerance.

--A

[Cail]

NAACP=National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, sort of an outdated, racist name too, come to think of it.

They were vital to securing equal rights in the 50's-70's, but seem to be more concerned with silly lawsuits and protests lately.

[duchess of malfi]

Well, my first thought is that the people attending the ceremony might simply be family history buffs, there to honor dead family members. Some of my ancestors from West Virginia & Virginia fought for the Confederacy (my husband's ancestors from Kentucky fought for the Union).

Just because you go to a cemetary and honor dead soldiers/family members, doesn't mean that you yourself are a racist...

I personally wouldn't honor the Confederate flag or sing Dixie, though. My ancestors were poor white trash who went to war to protect their homes. They didn't fight for the Confederacy (or to defend slavery, as they themselves did not own slaves) per se so much as they fought for Virginia. So if I were to honor them at some sort of ceremony, it would much more appropriate for me to have the flag of Virginia there.

[Cail]

Point taken Duchess, but I think there's a fair amount of hysteria surrounding the Stars and Bars. I knew a lot of people who flew that flag when I lived in Florida, and nearly unanimously it was flown (or worn) as a matter of Southern pride, not as a political or racial statement.

I can understand a certain amount of animosity that the flag stirs up, but it seems to me that people who get bent out of shape about it need to be respectful of other people's diversity as well.

[High Lord Tolkien]

"Dixie" was an ENORMOUSLY popular song before during and after the Civil War.
In both the North *AND* the South.
I would hope that the mere use of the song isn't considered racist in the PC world today.

I have a hard time with the Confederate flag though.
I can see both sides.
My family was picking potatoes in Ireland during the Civil War so I have no connection to it beyond my love for military history.
I don't want to go into percentages that vary from report to report but for a large part of the US population at that time the War between the States wasn't even about slavery.
(though if slavery was taken out of the picture there probably wouldn't have been a War so don't bother to correct me. I know how important slavery was!)
Grant said that if he had thought it was a war to end slavery he would have fought for the South.
Lincoln said that if he could have preserved the Union without freeing any slaves he would have.

This quote is from a well know CW story that I got from here:
www.nationalreview.com/smitht/smith200404160914.asp
This fact is best illustrated in one of the more popular stories of the Civil War. During a lull in the fighting, a Union officer asked a captured Confederate soldier if he was a slaveowner. When the young Confederate answered, "no," the officer asked why he was fighting on the side of the rebellion. The prisoner simply responded, "because you're here."

A vast majority of Confederates were just fighting for their states rights to govern themselves.
And considering how well the South fought against the North with what they had it's clearly a matter of pride with their decendents.
To call the Stars and Bars racist just seems incredibly one sided, imho.


But on the other hand I can clearly see how it represents a huge negative symbol for black people!
Not all Germans were Nazis but they know enough to keep the swastika out of public view.

So.... I don't have an answer.

[Lord Mhoram]

HLT,

A vast majority of Confederates were just fighting for their states rights to govern themselves.
And considering how well the South fought against the North with what they had it's clearly a matter of pride with their decendents.
To call the Stars and Bars racist just seems incredibly one sided, imho.

This is true, but since these people are honoring the cause of Confederate soldiers, they might as well use the flag that represents this cause.

On a side note, HLT:

Grant said that if he had thought it was a war to end slavery he would have fought for the South.

I have a hard time believing this, since General Grant himself was actually against slavery.

[Plissken]

I think there's a fair amount of hysteria surrounding the Stars and Bars. I knew a lot of people who flew that flag when I lived in Florida, and nearly unanimously it was flown (or worn) as a matter of Southern pride...

Yeah, I know how they feel. For instance, I'm still a Blazers fan.

[High Lord Tolkien]

On a side note, HLT:

Grant said that if he had thought it was a war to end slavery he would have fought for the South.

I have a hard time believing this, since General Grant himself was actually against slavery.

I have the book at home where I thought it was from Grant.
I'm not 100% sure though, I'll look it up tonight.

[dennisrwood]

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[Cail]

The fact that the lynch mobs (mis)appropriated the flag is unfortunate.

[ChoChiyo]

The confederate memorial service is legal under the constitution. I have no problem with people honoring the dead of that war.

I have dead relatives on both sides of that conflict--along with other relatives who were dying at about the same time in the purge of the native americans in the west.

There's enough death to share all around.

(And some of my relatives were starving in Ireland at that time too.)

[Lord Mhoram]

The problem is that the Confederate flag is an inherent symbol of racism to many people.

[Plissken]

This is a case where, for me, it's a matter of tact and taste. The fact that, if the folks who originally carried that flag had their way, a big portion of our citizenry would still be enslaved combined with the fact that that flag has continued to be raised high by thugs and racists, should be enough to keep anyone else from wanting to represent them.

As Robin Williams says, "Yeah, and a swastika's just a tibetian good-luck charm!"

However, I should point out that I'm not in favor of censoring anything, or legislating anything, in the name of taste, tact, or the Land of "Should".

[Cail]

The problem is that the Confederate flag is an inherent symbol of racism to many people.

No question about it. As much as I'd like to display the flag (say, on my motorcycle helmet), I won't. I don't wish to piss people off (even though I think many of those people are overreacting), and I also don't wish to get into a fistfight (or get run off the road) because of it.

[ChoChiyo]

Yes--The stars and bars have come to symbolize racism--and I would never display it for that reason. And for the same reason, I probably would not attend a public, formal memorial service for the dead of that war.

But when *I* see the Confederate flag, I do not think about racism--I think about a house divided and the sadness of that war--so much killing and bloodshed and destruction.

While I do not in any way approve of racism or slavery, I do have a level of respect for the young men (and older men too) of the South who fought hard in poorly equiped, poorly uniformed conditions--not for slavery, but to defend their homes.

I also find the stars and bars aesthetically pleasing and I like the jaunty tune of "Dixie."

[dennisrwood]

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