WAS Kevin so wrong to enact the Ritual?

[emotional leper]

I was under the Impression that the Army of Kevin's day was far larger and more skilled in arms and in Earthfriendship.

[wayfriend]

Thanks for all the insightful GI quotes, Malik.

This seems a contradiction to me. Above he says that Kevin's problem was that he didn't trust himself. But Hile Troy makes similar mistakes because he hasn't learned self-doubt. Interesting . . .

I think that the apparent contradiction is easily resolved.

Troy didn't trust himself because he knew he wouldn't choose despair. Troy trusted himself because he assumed he could not assume despair. That's a blind trust, doomed to fail. Troy came close to his self-trust backfiring on him.

When you know you have the capacity for good and evil, and you have worked out how to choose between them without despair guiding your hand, then you trust yourself in a more open and knowledgable way. This was Mhoram. Kevin and Trell never got there; they learned about their own capacities, but never learned that they could navigate those capacities.

Mhoram learned to use passion to feul his strength, but not to choose his course, and was wise. Kevin let his passion choose his course, and so was less wise. Troy, too, let his passion choose his course, and so was unwise, but he was also blind to where his course led, and so was more unwise.

Good point, SGuilfoyle: It was called a "Desecration" for a reason. It was more than just destruction, it was profanity as well.

CovenantJr: I have assumed that HL Kevin was more powerful than the new Lords, not less. The New Lords only had attained the first Ward, and continually bemoaned how little of Kevin's lore was recovered. And, as SRD says, Foul was learning as he went, and also he did not have the Illearth Stone. So the war in Kevin's days was probably more evenly matched than the one in Mhoram's day, not less.

[CovenantJr]

I'm not saying the battle was less even from the outset, I'm saying Kevin fought more of it, so by the end his position was more dire. The New Lords never quite reached that point, because Covenant saved them.

[Beyondthebreach]

Does anyone get the feeling that Kevin was set up to fail for the greater good? Sure, he was probably wrong in enacting the Ritual, but I've begun to see him as a kind of victim . . . set up to enact the Ritual and fail expresely to save the Arch from being destroyed by someone with the power to do so (i.e. Covenant or Linden).

It's hard to deny that there are prophetic powers at work in The Land . . . whether The Land and it's people are subtley guided by the Creator, or the Elohim, or other "puissant" beings or by some form of Earthpower itself . . . it seems that there are "forces" at work to attempt to guide others in the salvation of the land . . . the prophecy of White Gold indicates as much.

So, how was Kevin brought to this point? Perhaps through his own devices or through the influence of the Despiser . . . or, maybe, there were other beings "whispering" to Kevin. Some must have saw a future in which White Gold would come to the Land . . . a future that would bring people to the Land whose hearts were filled with loathing and despair. Yet, unlike Kevin whose ultimate expression of power - the Ritual of Desecration - was not enough to destroy the Arch of Time, these others would possess the uncontrollable fury of Wild Magic. Their despair could destroy the Arch and set the Despiser free . . .

And Kevin, the great High Lord - one of the ultimate figures of strength, kindness and power - becomes the Land's greatest scourge . . . and his legacy remains . . .

Without Kevin's submission to despair, would Covenant have ever achieved what he was able? Could it be that Kevin was brought down in order to eventually save the Land by serving as a constant reminder of despair and how to avoid giving in to it . . . That is not to say that Kevin didn't submit and is free of responsibility, but maybe he was brought to that point by "other forces". There is often more to the story than meets the naked eye, after all . . .

And I get a strong impression that Kevin's role is not done . . . Where is Kevin's redemption?


As a final sidenote: Kevin's name has always struck me as odd . . . it is a common name from our world . . . there are not many characters with names from our world . . . perhaps a few . . . (Lord Trevor, for instance) but Kevin is by far the most notable. Is that a subtle allusion to the capacity for earth's humans to give in to Despair . . . I often wonder if Kevin is from our earth as Covenant was . . .

[matrixman]

Well, despite the less-than-favorable things I've said about Kevin here, I do hope that he will be redeemed in some way in the course of the Last Chronicles.

Thank you for your thoughts! Glad you joined this excellent discussion.

[[Syl]]

Kevin as Judas? Interesting.

I believe SRD said something about getting the name Kevin from some guy he went to school with who he didn't know all that well but thought was somewhat annoying.

[matrixman]

Interesting story!

I think it has been said before by many others - and I agree with it - that Christian themes are a vital aspect of the Chrons, if not overtly expressed. That being the case, the idea of redemption of the soul fits in with the Chrons.

[emotional leper]

If we're going to equate Kevin to Judas, then we're just going to have to have the argument about whether Judas was a traitor or doing the work of God.

[Ur Dead]

In all the books, everybody says Kevin fell into despair. In TIW and WGW, Kevin is portrayed as someone who was desperate. SRD never gave us the view from Kevin's side. Why Kevin did it?

Maybe Kevin knew that he couldn't defeat Foul.
Maybe the constant invasions of the upper lands were a severe drain on the Warmarks and the Land's resources.
Maybe Kevin by enacting the RoD, knew he would perish but Foul would dimished so much that the Land and people would be able to revive faster than Foul would and raise a new army.
Kevin knew he wouldn't last forever and that Foul would be able to conquer the Land after he naturally died. So he did the RoD.

Alot of missing history from the first Chronicles can be told in the last two books. Alot a questions can be answered.

[CovenantJr]

If we're going to equate Kevin to Judas, then we're just going to have to have the argument about whether Judas was a traitor or doing the work of God.

That's one of my favourite parts of the novel I, Lucifer - the scene of Lucifer whispering to Judas about how important friendship and trust are, trying to persuade him not to betray his friend. It's a nice role reversal.

Anyway. Back to the topic at hand.

[wayfriend]

I don't think one can say, if it all works out in the end, then anything that happened along the way was justified, on the theory that it contributed to the end result. Not only do you clear Kevin of his Ritual, but you could argue that Lena's rape, breaking the Law of Death, or any number of other things were "for the greater good" and thereby justified.

I don't think it works that way.

[Captain Sheep-Flicker]

Let's not forget also, that Foul himself was a Lord, and possessed abilities and strength, and vision beyond that of any of the other Lords, including Kevin.

He therefore must have known exactly what an enactment of the ROD would cause to happen in the Land - a paving of the way for white gold to be brought into the Land.

This is also in keeping with Foul's preferred method of exacting punishment/death on his victims - the outcome is always that much sweeter if you can persuade your intended victim to go more than halfway towards committing the crime yourself.

Remember when TC was at the One Tree?

Foul's manipulation of people of good intentions is almost sublime in it's delivery - Kevin was probably seduced into desecration by Foul.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Some must have saw a future in which White Gold would come to the Land . . . a future that would bring people to the Land whose hearts were filled with loathing and despair. Yet, unlike Kevin whose ultimate expression of power - the Ritual of Desecration - was not enough to destroy the Arch of Time, these others would possess the uncontrollable fury of Wild Magic. Their despair could destroy the Arch and set the Despiser free . . .

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long and thoughts like this are being expressed toward the end of it.

There's absolutely no evidence for this in the book. People are just speculating, based on ONE off-hand comment made by Elena, that the Ritual of Desecration "expressed" Kevin's highest love of the Land.

Elena's take on Kevin is pretty much invalidated by ALL events subsequent to that statement. Even out of Kevin's own mouth. "FOOL."

What else do we know along this line? There's no indication that Kevin thought it was possible to bring the white gold to the land. He knew about it. Amok confirms as much.

Kelenbrahbanal dreamed of white gold in his grave, Kevin lusted for it in his anguish.

If he thought a summoning was possible, what if he had turned his considerable power and lore to the task.

I wish pople would hop on the bandwagon and realize that the New Lords were as powerful as the Old. And in Mhoram's case, more powerful.

The old Lords were more lore-wise. they knew ways to direct their power and emtions.

The New Lords were hampered by the oath of Peace, in one sense, but Mhoram was able to bridge it.

But they were able to withstand Foul for almost 60 years without the lore, hampered by the Oath. That bespeaks considerable power.

What else do we know along this line of thought?

Kevin in his death, with all his massive lore, with all his negative energy, COMMANDED by Foul to destroy Elena, still had to bring half of Melenkurion Skyweir's innards down on her to get the job done.

"He did not have the strength she believed of him," Mhoram said.

The wisdom he lacked in life is not granted him in death.

The thing you need to know about Kevin, above anything else, from my reading of these books, is that he was consistently WRONG.

I think if we find out the whole poop, there will be a LOT of jealousy of Great Grandpa Berek built in.

[Beyondthebreach]

Some must have saw a future in which White Gold would come to the Land . . . a future that would bring people to the Land whose hearts were filled with loathing and despair. Yet, unlike Kevin whose ultimate expression of power - the Ritual of Desecration - was not enough to destroy the Arch of Time, these others would possess the uncontrollable fury of Wild Magic. Their despair could destroy the Arch and set the Despiser free . . .

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long and thoughts like this are being expressed toward the end of it.

There's absolutely no evidence for this in the book. People are just speculating, based on ONE off-hand comment made by Elena, that the Ritual of Desecration "expressed" Kevin's highest love of the Land.

Elena's take on Kevin is pretty much invalidated by ALL events subsequent to that statement. Even out of Kevin's own mouth. "FOOL."

You'll have to excuse me, as I'm new to the site, I had little choice but to express my thoughts towards the end of the thread . . .

Anyway . . . I think you are misunderstanding my post entirely. I'm not defending Kevin and I'm certainly not stating that he performed the Ritual of Desecration with the idea that White Gold would eventually come to The Land. I am just pointing out that other "powers" may have been at work influencing Kevin along this path - that is to say, "other powers" besides Corruption.

As we learn more about The Land (and the entire World) we see that there are many potent forces at work manipulating events. Without giving away any Spoilers, we have seen how events in the past were caused, guided and molded by hertofore "unknown" beings.

That is not to say that Kevin knew of White Gold, but perhaps some other beings did. And, like it or not, Donaldson has chosen to use the common fantasy theme of "prophecy". Maybe not all future events are writ in stone, but once prophecy is introduced, it becomes a force in and off itself - one must question the role that everyone plays and if they are merely pawns. If we are to believe that the ultimate resolution of the Chronicles will be a victory for "Good" then all events transpired as they should to aid in bringing this about.

All that is beside the point though and getting more off on a tangent. The idea I was proposing is that, maybe, to some degree Kevin was a victim: manipulated and led down an inevitable course of events culminating in the Ritual of Desecration.

I have little doubt that Donaldson will reveal Kevin's story before all is done and, maybe, at that point great clarity will be shed on what exactly happened.

[Relayer]

I am just pointing out that other "powers" may have been at work influencing Kevin along this path - that is to say, "other powers" besides Corruption.

As we learn more about The Land (and the entire World) we see that there are many potent forces at work manipulating events. Without giving away any Spoilers, we have seen how events in the past were caused, guided and molded by hertofore "unknown" beings.

That is not to say that Kevin knew of White Gold, but perhaps some other beings did.

This may all be true. But... when SRD wrote about Kevin and the ROD, only the Elohim existed (and even they were just a race who he "name-dropped" in order to flesh out the larger world). Those "other powers" did not exist in his mind... therefore they did not exist in the "backstory" of the Land or the events leading up to the Ritual. Any analysis of Kevin's choices needs to be based on First Chronicles-level information only.

Nevertheless, I'll be interested to see what, if anything, comes of this as we continue...

If we are to believe that the ultimate resolution of the Chronicles will be a victory for "Good" then all events transpired as they should to aid in bringing this about.

This is another paradox that's difficult to get our minds around. If I make a bad decision, like betting on a losing poker hand, but then somehow get the one right card that wins for me, does that mean I made the right decision? Or does it mean I made the wrong decision (based on the odds) and got bailed out by 'luck'? Sure, I won the hand... But does that mean that all choices along the way were the right ones AT THE TIME?

[wayfriend]

For all you nooboids, you may find this informative:

INTERVIEW: June 2004

Click on the links for Did Kevin really not have anything else to try other than the Ritual of Desecration? (9:26), either 3.5 MB or 14.9 MB.

(That's our own Fist and Faith ( ) asking the question.)

[deer of the dawn]

Sure, but everyone had two thousand years to come to that conclusion. He had to make his decision in the time he was in. Let's be fair. who among us could do better than that?

[CovenantJr]

Precisely.

This may all be true. But... when SRD wrote about Kevin and the ROD, only the Elohim existed (and even they were just a race who he "name-dropped" in order to flesh out the larger world). Those "other powers" did not exist in his mind... therefore they did not exist in the "backstory" of the Land or the events leading up to the Ritual. Any analysis of Kevin's choices needs to be based on First Chronicles-level information only.

I don't see why. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not discussing SRD's intentions. I'm discussing Kevin, as a person. That fact that he isn't a real person and SRD didn't have the Elohim etc fleshed out doesn't matter to me.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Sure, but everyone had two thousand years to come to that conclusion. He had to make his decision in the time he was in. Let's be fair. who among us could do better than that?

Mhoram, for one. And that, ultimately, is the point.

Kevin didn't have to do what he did. Someone much less lore-wise than he faced just about the same devastation and prevailed.

[deer of the dawn]

Because he believed in the White Gold Wielder. Kevin had no one else but himself.