Hile Troy - What a Berk!!!

[Hearthcoal]

Direct from the old discussion board and exclusively for all of you raving Hile Troy fans...here is the link to Hile Troy - What a Berk!!!

Michael Giantfriend had this to say about our favorite sightless savant (what? you know another one?):

So Hile Troy has this wonderful plan to save The Land. He'll rely upon a half-dozen or so Ramen Manethralls in the Lower Land (not very far from Foul's Creche) to give him warning, and then send the ENTIRE WARWARD marching the length and breadth of The Land to fight Foul's army.

Nice one Hile! Way to murder the Warward! IMHO, Troy should have been able to do much, much better. After all, he had five years in which to form a fighting force he could be proud of. He could have brought about a revolution in the way both the Warward and the Loreward were taught. I mean, think about it. If you lived in Mithil Stonedown and wanted to train in the Warward, you had to go all the way to Revelstone, 300 leagues away! And if you wanted to train in the Loreward, you had to go to Revelwood, still about 250 leagues away. No problem if you have a nice big car or if there is a direct rail-link, but walking all the way? That's bound to be a big turn-off.

Maybe I'm being overly simplistic, but there is an old saying: "He who waits for the sword to strike loses his head". Hile Troy waited far too long before moving the Warward. He ignored the prime rules of any long-range planning. Always plan for the worst possible outcome. Always have fall-back contingency plans. Have contingency plans for the contingency plans. And at the end of it, don't EVER think you have everything covered, because you won't.

Why didn't Troy ask Quaan and Amorine to choose, say, ten Eoman of warriors who were good teachers, add two or three Lorewardens to each Eoman, and send them throughout the land to train the people both in combat AND in Lore, IN THE VILLAGES WHERE THEY LIVED??? That way, they would at the very least have gained a vast reservoir of irregulars - sort of a National Guard or Territorial Army. Both the Warward and the Loreward would have been increased in strength, and you never know, they may have found a couple of extra Lords out there! Certainly, having the Loreward teaching in every Stonedown and Woodhelven would bring benefits - possibly the Loreward would have developed the Lillianrill communication rods long before Fleshharrower's army marched - this way, Troy would be able to deploy his troops in the field long before war arrived.

And Why oh Why keep the entire Warward at Revelstone?
Have the mounted Warward split in two - one group on the banks of the Soulsease just north of Andelain, the other on the banks of the Mithil to the south of Andelain. That way, the Ramen scouts only have to make it as far as Andelain before they run into the Warward, and the Mounted warward only has a few days ride to get into position.
The Footsoldiers could be in a more-or-less permanent camp just south of the confluence of the White and Gray rivers, about 50 leagues south of Revelstone. Whenever word reaches Revelstone, the High Lord's party could then ride out and reach the Footsoldiers after two days. They would then have 26 days to march 240 leagues, instead of 28 days to march 290.

Troy worked for the U.S. Department of Defense? Then why didn't he recognise the primary need of any army. Supply and Transport? In the entire 1st Chronicles, there was no mention of anyone using a cart or a wagon. Even a few hundred of these would have made the army's job a lot easier - carrying much larger supplies of food, water, hurtloam and rillinure, and towards the end carrying tired warriors. Maybe the people of the Land would consider a wagon to be demeaning to horses? Tough - walking 300 leagues in four weeks is demeaning to the Warward!

Ooh, I'm getting riled!!! Anyone else out there think Troy's plan was just a little flawed? How would you change the way the Warward was prepared? Where would you have fought Foul? And - WHERE DID THE GIANTS FIGURE IN TROY'S PLANNING ??? ??? ???

...not that MGF has an opinion, mind you. There are a lot of good points archived out on this board so be sure to review it. (If you are curious about what a "berk" is, you'll find the answer there.)




P.S. Would you like an HT poll? And if so, what should it be about? (Does that make this a poll about a poll??)

[Skyweir]

Technically Hearthcoal .. I think it does .. a poll about a poll .. could be an interesting thread all on its own ..

I totally agree with MG-friend .. Hile Troy was a berk .. a right royal berk infact! Hile Troy should have been able to come up with a much better plan in the 5 preceding years .. especially if we are to believe his claim of working for some secret division of military intelligence in our world ..

[Bannor]

You make some excellent points, Hearthcoal! I agree with all your points; however, in defense of SD, I remember an interview that some publication had with him, and he said that his editor could always tell when SD did research on a topic (like military tactics), and the editor would always tell him to rewrite. The editor liked SD's creativity and deplored SD's research, so it's entirle likely that SD did not do any military research before writing the chronicles, and that's the reason for the "holes" in Hile Troy's military tactics.
I especially liked your first paragraph:

So Hile Troy has this wonderful plan to save The Land. He'll rely upon a half-dozen or so Ramen Manethralls in the Lower Land (not very far from Foul's Creche) to give him warning, and then send the ENTIRE WARWARD marching the length and breadth of The Land to fight Foul's army.

I remember an old Tarzan movie (Three Challenges of Tarzan), and he was asked what one thing he should make sure of when meeting an army over a long distance, and Tarzan replied that he would make sure that the long journey was the enemy's journey. Hile Troy should have made Fleshharrower make the journey instead of taking the eoward to meet him. (Of course Hile Troy may have wanted to keep Fleshharrower as far away from Revelstone as possible.)

[Vexis Larseker]

I was recently rereading a part of The Illearth War that adds evidence to this thread. I don't have the text here with me now, but it's when Troy is telling Amorine that they have to march on from Doriendor Corishev and she asks him why they can't stick to his former plan. He replies that Foul's army is too big and they only have six days of food left, so Fleshharrower could just starve them out. Wasn't Troy's original plan to lure Foul's army there and dig in, beating them in stages? I guess he was sure it would only take 6 days...

[Bannor]

I believe you're correct, Vexis. The whole problem with Hile Troy's plan was that he thought Fleshharrower's army was much smaller.

[Vain]

Considering that The Illearth War is predominantly the story of Hile Troy, it was indeed confusing to read - look at map - read - look at map etc and see that he was simply moving south of Revelstone.

I figure the baddies weren't too bright either because they just followed the plan.

Then again, I figure Hile needs some credit for taking them through Garroting Deep. Not that it helped much because the next book has the vile army back to full strength and then some.

Maybe it would be better to refer to Elena as a Berk

[Guest]

there's a very good discussion about this whole topic at one of thee links (the land) at the bottom of the first pager for the discussion groups. and yes, hile troy IS a berk!

[Dag son of Dag]

I think I`ll have to disagree with you all. In my opinion, Hile Troy did his best. Certainly, there were mistakes, but no plan is perfect. We have to keep in mind that Hile Troy had no actual experience with warfare before his summoning to the Land - he only worked in a commitee or something. The only severe mistake he made was the reliance on the Manethralls, and his plan was a bit unflexible. But still, I maintain that it was very good. Think about it - if Hile Troy hadn`t been around, Quaan or possibly Amorine would have been the Warmark. Both were excellent warriors indeed, and good leaders, but unimaginative strategians. With them in charge, the battle would have been fought were it always had been fought - resulting, unavoidably, in the destruction of most of the Warward. The survivors would flee to Doom`s Retreat and be decimated there. Hile Troy`s idea of facing Foul in Doom`s Retreat from the very beginning was excellent. Clearly, it is THE place to face a larger army.
When it turned out that the Warward had lost five days of marching due to the fact that Manethrall Rue had been late, Hile Troy reacted swiftly and effectively (after an initial moment of shock, naturally). In moments, he found a way to halt Foul. I don`t think many people in the Land could have done that.
Now, Hile Troy didn`t foresee the fact that Foul`s army was as big as it turned out to be. But nobody else did, either!! Not even Mhoram. And IF he had known, what else could he have done? Raising a National Guard as was proposed here would only cause more death: Foul`s army would easily decimate the small pockets of resistance the militia would create.
Hile Troy accomplished the following:
-He saved several settlements in the Centre Plains by drawing Foul away from them
-He managed to completely destroy Foul`s army, thus buying the Land more time

If someone else had been in charge, Foul`s army would, after destroying the Warward, have been free to wreak as much havoc on the settlements of the Land.

[JD]

Good point Dag, Troy was no doubt the best they had available. I don't think the people were critizing Troy as much as stating the fact without his deal with the Forrestal, he would have been defeated. There was no way for him to know the ravers army was so huge, so his last decision was to give his life so the army would live.


JD

[Hile Troy]

IMHO, Hile Troy did the best thing he could and that is draw the Fleshhallowers army furthest away from Revelstone as possible. When he sent the forward guard to meet Fleshhallower's army below the Anedelanian Hills I don't think the Giant-Raver ever could have resisted the opportunity to meet the enemy and destroy them. To effectively extinguish them from the face of the Land. These decisions had cost Hile Troy dearly but otherwise it would have cost him and the Land everything. Because a second Giant Raver army could have been raised to support a Fleshhallower siege on Revelstone. Armed with a piece of the Illearth stone, the Giant-Ravers have proven over and over again they had more resourceful power than the Lords. Able to raise an army from the very dust of the earth. Or raise storms and call down harpies full of vile blood. Like Danlo, I am going to research this more prudently! =)

[Hile Troy]

I am logged on at work, sorry for the brevity but a new thought occured to me. Do you realize the land had not seen conflict in over a 1000 years. Not since the cataclysmic Ritual of Desecration and all the events before it. These are a people completely unfamiliar, unacquainted with war and major battle. And the land is inhabited as so. There is very few defensible structures remaining in the Land that can be used against an invading army. Those are Revelstone, Trothgard, Doom's Retreat (natural), and the ruins of Doriendor Corishev (from the age of the Berek). Hile Troy had only five years to prepare against an army the size of which he did not anticipate. I will add more later, have to go. Farewell for now my fellow servents and let the discussion commence!

[Hile Troy]

Bump-


Why did Fleshhallower pursue Hile instead of marching on Revelstone? I think the answer lies in the fact the Ravers are no longer human but are rather demonic possessors of the living. Fleshhallower revealed himself to be an impulsive creature of Despite. Either that or the Giant-Raver's objectives were modified or changed.

Now on to another subject, do you truly feel Hile Troy could have defended Revelstone by amassing armies in the open fields that stand before it? Without fortifications, Hile Troy would have been adopting 'Quaan's strategy' while inviting the Giant-Raver's superior numbers to open combat without any means of retreat but, alas, back to Revelstone itself. I am not sure if he would have succeeded.. increasing the threat to Revelstone itself!

[Dag son of Dag]

Fleshharrower`s decision of pursuing the Warward to destroy it before commencing the siege of Revelstone was, I think, the most rational thing to do for him. If he left the Warward alone, they would be free to harass the rear of his army , disrupt supply lines (if there were any), and do a significant amount of damage. He might even be forced to a battle on two fronts - Revelstone on one side and the Warward one the other. But if he destroyed the Warward first, then there would be noone who could prevent him from doing exactly as he wanted. I`d assume his plan was something like this:
1. Destroy the Warward
2. Cause as much damage and suffering as possible to the people of the Land. Destroying Woodhelvens and Stonedowns, while moving northward.
3. Eventually laying siege to Revelstone or Revelwood.



Interesting point about the lack of defensive structures, Troy. One more should be added to that list: Landsdrop, because it prevents a hostile army from going whereever it wants, instead limiting it to two possible approaches.

[DEVILSPAWN]

This is where the National Guard would come into play. Not to meet the Raver's army on an open field of battle, but to ravage the edges and the rear of it, to play guerilla warfare. Sort of like the state militias preying on the British regulars in the American Revolution. Thousand of dirty little tricksters defending their homes in the nastiest ambushingest ways they can think of.

[Hile Troy]

Excellent post Dag! One of the strongest points is simply the lack of gathered intelligence on the enemy! But Hile Troy nor the Lords were never offered an opportunity!

Oh yeah, thanks for the heads-up on Landsdrop! Geez, how did I forget that one?!? lol

[Dag son of Dag]

Very nice idea, Dewilspawn. But i hate to think about what would happen to those poor militiamen if Fleshharrower sent a vortex of trepidation against them. They wouldn`t have a Lord or a seasoned military leader to hold them together.

A thought: What if these miltia forces where united into a second Warward, a secret backup army? Just an idea..

[Variol Farseer]

It's quite true that Hile Troy was a berk. The text more than hints that Foul personally chose him to answer Atiaran's summons, so that he would lead the Lords straight up a blind alley and let Foul wipe them out as a fighting force.

That said, we don't have to blame SRD completely for the holes in Troy's plan. Certainly the Warward should have been much better provisioned, with stores not only of food but of water, arrows, hurtloam and rillinlure dumped at strategic points across the Center and South Plains. And certainly they should have had better intelligence on the enemy -- at least enough to know that Fleshharrower's army was far stronger than the 50,000 to 80,000 Troy was expecting. But it was a bold plan, and might have worked on paper. As a former wargamer, I've seen equally audacious and tricksy plans attempted by armchair strategists with military experience, and I've seen them blow up in their faces in the most entertaining ways. (Sometimes they worked, and that would have been even more entertaining, only I was playing against them.) And Troy was definitely only an armchair strategist: he had never served in an army, marched a route, or carried a pack, for tolerably obvious reasons.

As for keeping the Warward at Revelstone: Napoleon was quite right, one should never divide one's forces so that one cannot quickly reunite them. Since Foul had effective control of Mount Thunder, he could attack the Lords from north or south as he chose. It would have been suicide to keep the Warward at any great distance from Revelstone before Foul committed his forces.

That said, Foul was equally stupid. After all, he had another huge army lying in wait, and another Raver to command it. If samadhi had pounced on Revelstone while Troy was off dealing with Fleshharrower, the war would have been over instantly.

Considering that SRD is no expert on war, the whole campaign makes a decent illustration of the old dictum: 'In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.'

[MokshaTuriyaSamadhi Raver]

Come on, you know you all love Hile Troy deep down inside...

[onions]

Actually, deep down inside of me, I know I absolutely hated Troy.
He thought he was so bloody better than Covenant. He thought he could outsmart Foul and be the Saviour of the Land. And then he'd be a Real Hero and Elena would say "Oh Troy, you saved the Land!" and be his babe forever. He risked the whole Land because he was thinking with his balls!

(Sorry, strong feelings there in my second post. I guess I identify too much with Covenant!)

onions

[Skyweir]

hey welcome onions and 'dag son of dag'!!

speaking of 'dag son of dag'!! .. absolutely love that nic

.. you really gotta be a dag to come up with a nic like that!!

and hey .. this is defintely a 'dag-friendly site'

[please note: this is a complimentary assesment ]

<am dag of the highest order of dags