I preferred The Gap series to Thomas Covenant

[Warmark Troy]

In the end I found Covenants persistant unbelief illogical and the Land had too many parallels to a cheap version of Middle Earth. It was good but not as good as the Gap series.

In the Gap series Donaldson lets fly with his love of anti-heroes, makes the tech consistent and plausibly balanced, by soft SF standards and paints a right picture of the ills of the human condition.
People are sduch scum you have sympathy for the Amnion, but know in your heart that they are still the enemy.
A fantastic read, the only time I read though a series as it was being written waiting eagerly for the next volume.

[lurch]

...The Gap series , as a read, is more crisp, and or sharper. The Tom Chrons are more murky, less delinineation between rite and wrong, muddied if you will...I mean,,while the Gap had new Tech talk,,the Tom Chrons are a show case for words oblique and antiquated. The Tom Chrons require the reader to think inside out, or in a photographic "negative " sense. The Gap series and the associated pebble dropped into a still pond analogy..while circular, still spreds the thinking out over wider and wider terra, thus diluting the readers emotional responses. The Tom Chrons tend to do the opposite in that the emotional responses tend to become more intense and focused as Tom goes thru his travails.

The authors handling of SF,,I enjoyed. Some Einstiens have found fault. Oh Well. I also very much enjoyed the authors own thoughts and auxillary notes thru out. His admitting the close analogy to the Ring Cycle was kinda unique and refreshing.

Yet..I find myself in full anticipation of Fatal Revenant. It is difficult for me to say that I foam at the mouth more for FR than I did for what followed after each installment to The Gap or Mordants Need or any of the Tom Chrons.

I have enjoyed his short storys dealin in the SF realm as well. I am some what suprised that a new effort from him would be in the Tom Chron mold. On that, maybe I am in agreement with you. Its easy for me to say, that he did such a good job with the Gap,,how is it that he couldn't come up with a new cast of characters, new setting, new SF, and tackle his thematic itch with that...oh how easy that is to say.

But, rather than dwell in the hypothetical, we are the recipients of what and how he did choose to write. I am finding a refinement in his style, more sci-fi in the plot,,and yes,,more inside out thinking required. It seems to me ,,that it may be premature to award anything,,until Donaldson's last work is released. ( read that as "The Last Chrons" may be his best work ever,,a compilation and refinement of everything he's known for)...MEL

[Edge]

Personally, I think 'Mordant's Need' is way better than either 'Gap' or the first 2 TC Chronicles.

[Variol Farseer]

Personally, I think 'Mordant's Need' is way better than either 'Gap' or the first 2 TC Chronicles.

'

Heretic! Burn the heretic!

[Loredoctor]

LOL!

[bossk]

I think it's wonderful that SRD has even given us fodder for this argument. Can you imagine how much integrity it took to leave a safe and successful idea (The Land) and go into SF, or mystery? The man marches to his own inner drummer, and I admire that.

[Nav]

The Gap is certainly an easier read than TCTC, and I think this is at least partly to do with transportation. Gap crossings mean that transport across huge distances in space occurs in an eyeblink, or a matter of mere hours if multiple crossings are required. Compare that to the weeks of walking in the First Chronicles or the months aboard Starefare's Gem in the Second. The Chronicles consisted of a series of long, hard slogs for the reader, interspersed with a number of frenetic and/or powerful sequences. In contrast the Gap starts quite slowly but then builds to a hectic pace by A Dark and Hungry God Arises, which only really lapses during the protracted political wrangling of Chaos and Order. Minus the (perhaps) overly elaborate prose of the Chronicles and the Gap becomes a much, much easier read, despite the grisly bits.

Mordant's Need is quite hard to compare to the other two works. Once it's up to speed it's fantastic and at no point did I find myself itching to get through a slow passage and back to some action. However, The Mirror of Her Dreams is very slow up until the point where the Masters summon Darsint, making it harder to get into than the Gap IMO.

[Revan]

I perfered the Gap series to Thomas Covenant also...

In a way, this is because the Gap tests both your empathy, and your empathy - your ability to understand the characters actions, and motivations. And also your intelligence, for example: the Ancillary Documentations, how well you understand them, and the subtlities within the stories - which I also enjoy.

The Thomas Covenand series doesn't do much of the latter. But it takes a lot of the former to understand Thomas Covenant and Linden Avery: And to be able tolerate them.

The Gap tests you more. A much better read in my opinion.

[Cail]

Well put Darth.

[Variol Farseer]

Actually, the 'Ancillary Documentation' set my teeth on edge. That's because I cut those same teeth reading Heinlein, who almost never needed extensive infodumps to help readers understand his technical ideas. He dramatized them. Don't explain the internal-combustion engine; stick your lead character in a traffic jam.

As early as 1947, in Space Cadet, Heinlein has a boy burying what is (to us) obviously a cellular phone in his backpack so he can't hear it ring, because he doesn't want his mother to call him. This was some 30 years before the invention of the cellular phone, and over 40 years before they began to be popular. Yet I never heard of a reader who had any trouble grasping the idea. 'Yes,' they said to themselves: 'I can see people in the future carrying around little tiny radio phones . . . and I can see them causing that kind of problem, too.'

SRD is good at describing technology, but he's still not as smooth as Heinlein.

[Loredoctor]

Your opinion, VF. I loved them, myself.

[danlo]

In the end I found Covenants persistant unbelief illogical and the Land had too many parallels to a cheap version of Middle Earth. It was good but not as good as the Gap series.

I completely disagree with this statement.

Actually, the 'Ancillary Documentation' set my teeth on edge.

I also completely disagree with this one too...while I look forward to many of VF's intense analyses this one set my teeth on edge (not our member Edge) in this case: methinks, sometimes, he dost critique too much...

[Dawngreeter]

I have been trying to think why I liked the the Gap better than the Chronicles and I think its simply because the Gap is more realistic & believable. I may have just tapped my hidden appreciation for sci-fi.

[steppy]

hmmm, not sure if you can really compare TC to the gap series, or to mordent's need for that matter. each of them is so seperate in their ideas and perspective of the worlds that they inhabit that i think it is unfair to expect readers to enjoy one more than the other. if you believe in one more than the other then that is your perogative, but not everyone has the same reasoning or thoughts. i thought they were all amazing, but each in their own way, that doesn't detract from the fact that they are all brilliantly written and will probably be enjoyed by millions of people till the end of time!!!!

[Usivius]

nothing important; i just saw the name "steppy" and started laughing.
Nothing personal, i just found the name funny on a Wednesday morning without a coffee...

[Zarathustra]

I like Gap better, too. I think it is SRD at his best. The technical achievement alone just astounds me, how he can take all these characters and give them each a story worthy of being the MAIN story, and weave them together into an escalating tale of simultaneously personal and epic proportions. When I want to show a friend an example of the best writing I've ever seen, I give them the Gap books.

[wayfriend]

I've always been a science fiction fan as much as a fantasy fan. Some of the very first books I ever read just to read books were books like Doyle's John Carter of Mars and Riverworld and the Sword of Shanara ... books that blended fantasy and science fiction together. And I devoured Foundation as avidly as Riddlemaster; I found the Fellowship as fascinating as Stranger in a Strange Land; the few books I've honored by going hardcover include Dune as well as the Silmarillion. To this day, I don't think I could tell you what really makes one story fantasy and another story science-fiction - it's all wonderful stories in different worlds to me. (I never did like reading "real world" stories until I got old, and even then ... )

So I'm quite sure of myself when I say, genre difference have nothing to do with my preferences.

I first read the Chronicles when I was seventeen, a freshman in a tech college. This was a significant time of change for me, a mind-expanding period. And reading was a significant component in my life at that time - I was broke, and reading is a cheap hobby. I first read the GAP when I was almost thirty, in love and planning my wedding. This was a significant time of change for me, a socially-expanding period. And reading was a significant component of my life at that time - I was hitched, and reading is a hobby that arouses no spousal ire as it keeps you home. And it's still cheap.

So I can reasonably claim that neither the Chronicles nor the Gap has any advantage in my opinion because they hit me at a more vulnerable moment. There's no helping that the Chronicles has a ten year head start on my attention. But otherwise I think it's pretty fair.

In addition to the Chronicles, I've read Mordant's Need, all Donaldson's short stories, and all the Axbrewder mysteries as well. Pretty much as they came out (in paperback), because Donaldson was always a writer I grabbed the minute I saw his name. And I've reread all of them, as often as I had the urge to, which means I've read them all recently as well.

So I can justly state that I'm familiar with Donaldson's style, his patterns, his range, and his evolution. (Daughter of Regals leads to Mordant leads to This Day All Gods Die, etc.)

(No, I'm not leading up to anything which is meant to imply that my opinion should be taken more seriously than anyone elses. I'm just in the mood for writing today, so I'm being long winded and tiresome just because I want to spend some time writing this, to get it right. Hopefully, most anyone reading this has bailed out by now, so if you're still with me, you must be in a thoughtful and patient mood. Good!)

So here it is: I like the Gap series a lot, but I love Covenant's Chronicles.

But what makes it worth writing such a long post is telling you why.

There's no question that in my opinion the Gap series was the work of a more skilled writer. In fact, it's a remarkable achievement by any standard. You expect any writer of worth to refine and perfect his craft over time, but Donaldson exeeds expectations, not the least because he changes genres.

He creates a true space opera with the Gap series. It's a story with many characters, each character a true and respectable element of the story. Each is painted with care, and whether you like them or hate them, you believe in them, because they become real. (The influence of having written Mordant's Need is very apparent to me in this.) And all these characters emerge from the backrounds of their lives and climb onto a galactic stage. Their needs and wills and fears shake the heavens and knock stars from their courses.

The science is heavy, without being heavy handed. Ancilliary Documentation: I like it, because it doesn't require the characters to be bogged down with exposition. (Real characters don't point at gadgets and say, "Gee, did you know that these were invented in 2243 by so-and-so? Let me tell you how it all happened...") It creates a framework where we can understand the science, and also the very deep and wide implications of science, without requiring the characters to just happen to be historians or subject matter experts or have bizzare coincidences, unless (like Shaheed, for example) it fits the story. I particularly enjoyed Donaldson's position on the vastness of space vs the ambitions of men to rule it.

And there's no question that the Gap series has the action, the drama, the tensions between characters, and other story elements to make it a page turner. Like Shakespeare, we meet kings and paupers, generals and vagabonds, ladies and worms, and at some point or another they all interact. The safety of the universe is at stake, and somehow the soul-driven, desperate actions of the heretofore unimportant keeps it all hanging in the balance.

Yeah, it's real good. I love this stuff.

And, in so many respects, the Chronicles (at least the First and the Second) pales in comparison. The Land is a very simple place compared to the Gap's Human Space. Despite many lovable and well-written characters, there are fewer protagonists, and the interactions between them are relatively simple - there're no shifting loyalties or deceptions. Magic (as analogous to technology) is vague and mostly unexplained.

So how is it that the Chronicles stacks up to, and surpasses, the Gap series in my opinion?

For one, there is less vs more. The Land may be a simpler world, and the people may be more black and white. But despite that, Donaldson creates a story that is as complex emotionally, as dramatic, and as poignant as anything in the Gap series -- in fact, it is more so. In the Gap series, Donaldson paints a very wide canvas; in the Chronicles, the canvas is smaller, but the painter is so much more subtle with his strokes. Starting with less, it becomes every bit as significant of a story. There is something there which matches the vastness of the Gap universe, but which lies along a different dimention.

In a fantasy, a writer can be more metaphoric; that is, symbolisms and correspondences can be made more obvious. I am sure that it is just as possible in science fiction. But in the Gap series, there are so many interactions to juggle, so many plots to tie together, so many points of view to share, that there is just not as much time and space to be metaphoric. I'm not saying that the Gap series doesn't have any symbolism, or that it has less, but that it doesn't spend - can't spend - as much time developing them. Like a fine harmony in a symphony, the longer you spend developing it, expanding it, varying it, contrasting it, the more moving it becomes. The Chronicles are filled with well-explored themes, such as hope and despair, service and selfishness, passion and control, self mastery and possession. And, being well-explored, they have a more tangible importance to the story. The Gap series falls far short in comparison. And so it is less personally important, less spiritually moving, less life-changing. Stuff that lies along that other dimension.

Maybe this is the reason, or maybe it's due to something else, but the Chronicles are more beautiful to me. Beauty is something that you experience, and when you do, it moves you and inspires you and lifts your spirits because it exists. So when you find beauty, you consider it a gift, and you cherish it while you can, and you remember it when it is gone. And that's what the Chronicles has for me.

Sure, the Land is beautiful, and filled with beautiful people and things. But that's just the stage - maybe even the foil - for the real beauty. For Donaldson helps you see the beauty of being human. Of having a human heart burdened with human failings. Yet capable of heroism and sacrifice and selfless love. Covenant, the leper and Unbeliever, whose heroism in the end surpasses the Haruchai, whose sacrifices cannot be matched by Lord Foul's deceits, whose selfless love burgeons from the darkest depths of misery.

We all know the great moments of the Chronicles, the moments we love and cherish. Some of mine of are these: The Rearing of the Ranyhyn. Gallow's Howe. The Healer. Coercri. The Dungeon of the Sandhold. The Banefire. To me, all of these great moments have something in common. They are exaltation. They are the junctures of plot and unique fantasy elements and drama - and more. They are crescendos of emotion. And that only happens when you are so there in the story, caught up, involved, committed. And they are all moments of beauty to me, the aching beauty of being merely human in the direst circumstances (circumstances perhaps only possible in a fantasy), where the spirit emerges, naked and inspiring and, eventually, triumphant. Triumphant with horns.

The Gap doesn't have that; at least not for me. I'm happy for Angus in the end, but his soul journey didn't change mine. Dios' sacrifice was supreme, but I didn't cry for him. I feel for Morn, but I never felt as if I could not have done what she did.

The Chronicles had the power to move my soul. The Gap series did not.

Stephen Donaldson, in an interview, once said: I have always written about things happening to people who need those things to happen to them specifically.

I know with certitude what he means. For if I am sure of anything, I am sure that I needed the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant to happen to me, for precisely the same reasons, in precisely the same way. They are something beautiful that I encountered, which I am compelled to consider nothing less than a gift, and which I will cherish.

If the Gap series had never been written, I would be the same person after all. The Chronicles, not so much.

[Dawngreeter]

Holy moly dude! I'd say that you were into writing! Feel better now.. ?

Anyway, well spoken. I believe that I may secretly agree with you. I have to read the Gap series again to be fair though.

[ItisWritten]

The Gap cannot be compared to TC. They are both Donaldson, and that's enough for me.

Well, that's what I used to think. Long ago, when I first read TC 1 and 2, I was confused. Not by the story, but how I felt about them. Or rather, why I liked them. Why I reread them. I rarely recommended them; they were wordy, strangely paced, and there was rape. I knew exactly 2 people who had ever read them. Of course they liked them like I did.

When I read the Gap, the experience was different. For one thing, I read the first 4 books straight through. But after finishing TDAGD, I was confused again. Oh, I loved it, but something was missing. A friend who read it said it was disappointing. I reread it for the first time last summer, ten years later, and found I enjoyed it more.

(I chalk some of this up to the cliffhanger defect--emotions are raised to a high level, and when you go back, that feeling is gone, replaced by expectations--which as we know are often disappointed. The second time I had neither cliffhanger nor expectations.)

Today my clinical mind (with a nod to Wayfriend's dissertation, bravo) tells me that I have changed. I read quite a bit of fantasy back in my youth, but somewhere along the line I gravitated toward SF.

Still, it's not as simple as emotion vs. logic. I haven't read any of TC (save Runes) in at least 15 years. So, here it is.

I haven't had time to deal with the emotion of TC. The Gap is more visceral in its emotions. Some call that more real, but to me it's just less demanding to my soul--and I like it that way. Better Morn than me, so to speak.

That doesn't mean I won't read TC again. Now that I know I've been avoiding it--in one sense--I'll probably sit down with it soon.

But I don't look forward to the traveling expositions. I don't know. Can one mature into impatience?

[Zarathustra]

Wayfriend, I have never agreed with a post of yours more than the one you posted above. Very well said (though I had to chuckle when I got to the "less is more argument" in such a long post. ) Despite the length, I read every word of it and enjoyed it immensely. Similarly, the Chronicles move me a lot more than the Gap. They are more beautiful. And you're right: they do less with more. They have more depth, meaning, significance, and--strangely--reality. Their metaphorical significance resonates on a level more closely human than anything I've ever read. My "Be authentic" thing below my online name is my own rendition of "Be true" (filtered through Heidegger). These books mean something to me. If nothing else, I've posted at least 100 times more words in these forums about the Chronicles than the Gap.

So why do I say the Gap is better? I'm still not sure. Maybe because I think if I tried for about 100 years, I might be able to write a book that moved me as deeply as the Chronicles. Not because I think I'm anywhere close to being as good a writer as Donaldson, but because the issues he deals with and the way he deals with them touch me so deeply and so personally that it feels like maybe in some alternate universe I did write those books, some alter ego of mine which is called Stephen R. Donaldson in this universe, wrote them for me. So now I don't have to. Phew.

But even in 1000 years, I don't think I could ever write something like the Gap Cycle. I couldn't even imagine that a writer could be so good at his craft that he could produce something like this. It feels alien, it's so unexpectedly good. And as such, there's not the resonance or "Jungian familiarity" I get with the Chronicles. There's just a distant, awe-inspired, acknowledgment that I'm in the presence of genius.