Time to see the Watch's majority . . .

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:55 pm

The United States of America, Home of the Free, has become a menace to the Earth.

Oh God! I hope you were exaggerating! An agressor, maybe, but not a menace!

Post by **caamora** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:41 pm

You know, during work today I was thinking of this and what BirdandBear said and I might have to disagree after all. It is an interesting point. However, I feel that America is not a school yard bully. Remember that the U.S. has been dealing with this guy for many, many, many years. We have been having problems with the middle eastern governments for as long as I can remember and the U.S. has done NOTHING! We have turned the other cheek to many terrorist attacks in the past, we have closed our eyes to the lack of respect for the human rights of the people of these nations. 9/11 changed all that. The sleeping giant awoke and is pissed off!

Hussein and his ilk have for decades thumbed their noses at the rules. Not America's rules, mind you, but rules put down by NATO.

This war is a long time coming and Hussein needs to be stopped.
Otherwise, he and others like him will continue to pillage, invade, and destroy anything they please.

Now as for Bush being a tyrant, remember that he is in office only because the people voted for him. We can just as easily vote him out ! We can protest his policies and actions (as many people have done with this war)in public as much as we please. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, Freedom of Religion, etc. - the Bill of Rights help to protect the American people from tyrants and we have the power to do something about it! George Bush is far from being a tyrant or a warmonger and it would be difficult for any man to be a tyrant who would be president of a free and democratic nation.

In closing, the bully of this story is Hussein, not America - not Bush. We have been patient and long suffering because we have tried to stay out of war and have tried to maintain the peace. It is just no longer possible.

Post by **Dromond** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:02 pm

Seeing the many pictures of Iraqis free to demonstrate their thoughts and speak their minds and handing flowers to U.S. GIs' and listening to the American Iraqis saying how proud they are to be Americans and how they can now contact their loved ones in Iraq and on and on, I believe America is doing the right thing.

Post by **Birinair** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:45 pm

If the war was not about weapons of mass destruction and was about an evil dictatorship will America and the UK do the right thing in respect of other dictatorships, China, North Korea, Libya? Where does it stop? More impotantly against a larger better equipped foe would we all be prepared for a long drawn out war with lots of dead, and a need for conscription? If we let this genie further out of its bottle, beginning perhaps with Iran or Syria (just because we happen to be in the area) as Mr Rumsfeld has been rumbling about, where and when are we going to stop? If its moral to do it once then surely we should all personally be prepared to die in battle to free the rest of the world, if we are willing to send others to do it on our behalf!

Post by **caamora** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 6:09 am

Is any war ever moral? Over the centuries, wars have been fought for two reasons: money and God. I'm sure that those who fought the wars for christianity felt that they were doing the moral thing. And money is the root of all evil! I don't think that any bloodshed is moral.

I attend college full-time and had my economics class the other night. For four hours, we discussed this war. Our instructor, who has an MBA from Northrop University and a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering from USC, is quite a knowledgeable man. He, and all the other students, among who are business people, educators, and military personnel, really made me look at this war in a different way. Although there were other students who feel as I did, none of us could argue our instructors points. It all boils down to the fact that Bush is self-serving. He comes from an oil family. He had no economic plan for the U.S. Had 9/11 never happened, Bush might have been considered one of the worst presidents in history because of his lack of economic policy. Right before 9/11, our economy was taking its downturn. Everyone was beginning to ask "What's happening?" Then - boom - 9/11. Bush was able to take the focus off the spiraling economy and onto Osama Bin Laden and terrorism. The question is "Why then did we go after Hussein?"
It was also speculated that the Twin Towers was another Pearl Harbor in that we were aware that it would happen. But that was just speculation and not to be taken as gospel.

I wished you all could have been there. I even mentioned this discussion board in class and how emotional everyone felt about the situation. It may all sound as if we are using good critical thinking skills, but in all actuality, we are being run by our emotions.

My biggest fear now is what is going to happen next? There are a great many countries that are against us. Even now I understand that Japan, China, Taiwan, and other Asian countries are forming a coalition with each other so that they can be self-sufficient and can push any trade with us out the door. This can really hurt us where we live - in our wallets. We have pi$$ed off much of the world and we may end up paying for this for quite some time.

It is a complete about face for me, I know, but I was well convinced by some exceptional proof. So, now I stand corrected, albiet a little embarrassed.

I change my vote. I am against Bush's decisions in this situation. (I still don't think he is a tyrant, I just think he is greedy and self-serving. But what is that, if not a tyrant!

)

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:09 pm

It's funny how you say war is fought for money and God; and then go onto say money is the root of all evil! Not saying your are wrong, but let's face it; money IS our god. We're no better off than the working class in Animal Farm, and we're just not educated enough to see. See--they want to get rid of public education now. What's that going to leave? Private? Okay, then only the upper class just about will be able to afford that--and notice how they're always hiking up intuition so we can't get college! And retirement? Social security! Ha! "Well, we said we were going to give it to you at 62 . . .but now . . .you're going to have to wait till 65 . . . [a few years later] . . .now it's 70. . .hell--who needs social security! Go on, take that money and save it up--invest it, or put it in the stock market!" And TV, entertainment, video games, etc. That's all just there to keep us thinking, "gee, politics are boring!" It's just like in Animal Farm when Napoleon keeps tearing down the windmill; it keeps the animals too busy with work to think about anything else! Like George Carlin once said, it amazes me how much the human race goes through to BS themselves.

If we weren't being used, then there wouldn't be a few people above us. And it's not that the rich upper class "worked hard to get there". Some did, maybe--back when Model Ts were in style. But this is a new century; it will be like this: most of them took advantage of the system--most of them had a better education--they know how to use the working class. And that's just it--they don't call us the mules for nothing.

Post by **caamora** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:58 pm

Well, as one mule to another, I love the chicken!!

Post by **Skyweir** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:56 pm

<also loves the chicken!

Post by **birdandbear** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:17 pm

See--they want to get rid of public education now.

?!?!!!?!?WHAT?!?!?!

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 8:16 pm

You okay? *Pats back, as if you're choking* But really, there's always higher-ups who want public education abolished. "It has this, it has that, these problems, those problems, and it’s not perfect." But it's better than nothing is.

Post by **birdandbear** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:45 am

But it's better than nothing is

.

Precisely! The idea of nothing is appalling. What kind of loony would advocate such a thing?

Post by **caamora** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:31 pm

Somebody just like Lord Foul's chicken!

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:38 am

and I wasnt going to mention names

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:16 pm

Lord Foul!! LOVE THE CHICKEN lol actually I don't! I saw Joe yesterday, by the way........JOE MAMA! :LOLS:

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:17 pm

Anonymous wrote:Lord Foul!! LOVE THE CHICKEN lol actually I don't By the way, I saw Joe yesterday........JOE MAMA!

Post by **[Syl]** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:45 pm

The Five Horsemen of Kevin's Watch shall ride again.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:39 pm

Who, may I ask, are the Five Horsemen??

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:44 pm

*Holds up the white gold ring*

Five Horsemen! Pfft! On Foul’s food-chain, they’re one below an Ur-Vile and one above a lame Ranyhyn. And let’s see a Horseman do this!

*Surges forward at the Arch of Time*

Post by **Brinn** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:15 am

Hussein made the aggressive move in attacking Iran .. and you seem to be glossing over the fact that he had US support .. militarily as well. And arent you claiming in reverse it is ok for the US to use military force in their more noble quest of eliminating any threat to them .. and gain additional political, economic and military

Ok Sky...I've thought about this and here's my answer. A preponderance of evidence (actually it's my opionion but what the hell!) has convinced me that my government will act on behalf of its people. There is certainly a measure of self interest that you cannot take away. Aside from this self-interest the US has always espoused more noble goals as well. We promote freedom and democracy and human dignity and these ideals are often piggy-backed onto our interests. Occassionally our foreign policy puts us in a position where we ally ourselves with the lesser evil. When Iraq invaded Iran, US policy viewed Iran as the larger threat and therefore chose to support Iraq. It's situational logic. At the time it appeared to be the best option although hidsight is always 20/20. I certainly will not say that the US has always been in the right (although I do think that moral justification and not just protecting our self interests has always played a major role in US policy) but I firmly believe that in the vast majority of circumstances our actions are morally justifiable and that there is ultimately a universal standard of human rights that we seek to uphold. In essence I think that we've had alot more successes than failures (even from a global perspective) but that we, as a nation are held to a much higher moral standard than the vast majority of other nations and we seek to meet these standards.

on another note...

It's funny how you say war is fought for money and God; and then go onto say money is the root of all evil! Not saying your are wrong, but let's face it; money IS our god. We're no better off than the working class in Animal Farm, and we're just not educated enough to see.

I strongly disagree. It amazes me how Americans, and civilians of other western capitalist countries to a lesser extent, are so self-scrutinizing and critical. I believe it's a function of the freedom we enjoy. I would argue that capitalism and the seperation of church and state are the two most important cogs in creating the free and bountiful lives that we either currently enjoy or are at least free to pursue. As Dinesh D'souza said "Until we can find cultures that prefer hunger, rather than plenty, disease rather than health, and short lives rather than long ones, we have to acknowledge that material improvement is a universal objective."

Money is not my god. It provides me with a measure of comfort. It allows me to provide for my family, for several charities, for my community, for my church, for others...It is not the only way to assist (I volunteer my time as well.) just another way. It is trite to say that money is the root of all evil. It's cliche. If you are willing to believe that money is the root of all evil than you may as well reduce it further and say that greed or envy is a truer cause and then you could boil that down to human nature in general.

As for religion...Well, we'll save that for another time...or another thread.

It's getting late and I'm a little tired. I know there are several other issues I would like to address but I just don't have the stamina tonight...But I'll see you all soon.

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:33 am

It provides me with a measure of comfort. It allows me to provide for my family, for several charities, for my community, for my church, for others...

How much comfort? You said so yourself--what it allows you to provide for your family, your charities, your community, and church. Everything. Everything revolves around money: needs it, is nothing without and greater within it.

I know that there's no evil without good in it, no matter how small. I don't believe anything evil or good or anything human or emotional--period--can radiate from an inanimate object like paper money. What I do believe is money is our God. We can't survive without it, and that's a fact. Remove money, and the floor of civilization goes with it--instant chaos. We'd be no better than hunter-gatherers, then, and since we've been weaned on a society where the things we get are gotten through money, then we'd be totally unprepared to hunt, live the nature life, etc. In this world, it’s haves and have-nots, educated and the uneducated, and if you don’t have money and you’re not educated, you’re nothing.

Heh, Brinn, that's fine by me--I'll agree that human nature is evil. It's everything! We've had our moments--as a human race--of great accomplishment, and great ignorance, wonderful expressions, and terrible wars. I'll say human nature is evil, yes. It's the most flawed diamond on this planet, if you compare it to other life, like the animal kingdoms. We're the most varied.

Time to see the Watch's majority . . .

Well?!