The Malazan Book of the Fallen

[I'm Murrin]

I actually can't remember anything about that, Syl. I'll have to look up those scenes again in the book, but I don't have BH with me any more.

[lucimay]

oh...the honeydreams. yeah. i'll have to backpage a bit and reread as well.

[iQuestor]

Spoiler

dammit

. now I have something else to add to my reading list.

[Zarathustra]

Okay, I'm trying a second time to get into this series. I'm encouraged that Tazz said he didn't really like the 1st book, but loved the 2nd book, because I gotta tell ya, I ain't impressed with GotM. 200 pages into it, and I'm still struggling to find a character I like, or a plot that I'm interested in, or any reason at all to keep reading. 200 pages. Wow. Oh well, Tazz gives me a little hope.

But I need a little more reassurance. Please tell me, does this series ever develop beyond political intrigue, or is that pretty much all it's about? Do any of these characters actually want anything, or are they all just pieces on a chessboard?

I'm getting very bored with this--

"I've got a hidden plot,"
"No, you don't, I'm the one with a hidden plot,"
"I think those two guys whispering to each other have a hidden plot,"

--stuff.

What do these characters care about? I don't have a clue. Tattersail watches her lover

Spoiler

get killed on the battlefield, and doesn't shed one tear or mention him again.

The only emotion she shows after this is a vague excitement for--you guessed it--the political plot she's becoming involved in.

I need more. Please tell me there is more.

[Marv]

I felt GOTM was a little plastic. It was entertaining without any emotional investment needed.

The second is far superior. I wont garantee you'll love it but it's definately a huge improvement. If you can force your self through to 400-500 pages of DHG and your still not enjoying it--give up.

[lucimay]

i suggest, Malik, if you don't like it, put it down and read something else.

[duchess of malfi]

I also liked Deadhouse Gates a lot more than Gardens of the Moon. Erikson's writing style really matured in the years between the books. And two of my three favorite characters appear in Deadhouse, along with my favorite plotline - the Chain of Dogs.

But the thing is - these books and this world are massive in scale. While I have not cared for some characters or plotlines, others have captivated me.

I would give the first two books a try - if none of the characters or plotlines have grabbed you by then, it is probably time to move on to another author.

[lucimay]

If Deadhouse Gates doesn't suck you in...you can't be sucked in. that's all there is to it!

[Zarathustra]

i suggest, Malik, if you don't like it, put it down and read something else.

Nah, more fun to just bitch about it.

But seriously, I AM trying to conduct a little market research here, since I'm trying to break into this genre myself with my own novel. I'm trying to see what makes other authors successful, and what the competition is doing right. But for the life of me, all I can conclude from this series is to just make a big, complicated plot, and then give little bits of this plot a bunch of people who talk and act exactly the same, and then let them bump into each other randomly.

So since this is all I can see in the book so far, I'm asking those who have read more of it and apparently appreciate it more than I do, to please give me some insights into why you like it (and NOT whether or not I should continue reading it; I'm perfectly capable of making that decision myself.)

does this series ever develop beyond political intrigue, or is that pretty much all it's about?

Should I take the lack of response to this question as a confirmation of my worse fears?

[lucimay]

first of all, Crankypants...

go on over to the Malazan board and check out some of their discussions.

i admit i can't discuss it with any kind of thing but effusive drivel.

yes the plot is thick. yes cast of thousands. yes they consistantly behave the same...they are consistantly in a specific world where rules apply. figuring out the rules of Erikson's world is a huge part of it for me.

it's emotionally layered. and here's the biggest part of it (again, for ME),

warrior culture study. the guy's an anthropologist so there is a veracity to the cultures.

he made like men better. no way to explain it. i'm being completely honest here. whatever interactions are taking place between characters, it's working for me. i like watching them.

i like watching them so much so that there are details i miss because i'm so engaged in marveling over this thing or that thing that this one or that one said...
(so i guess that means i like the dialogue)

and i guess...

when its all said and done...i find it an easy world to find in my head. i see it clearly.


i like the "historic" aspect, the way its laid out. i like that we witness history happening.

Now these ashes have grown cold, we open the old book.
These oil-stained pages recount the tales of the Fallen,
a frayed empire, words without warmth. The hearth
has ebbed, its gleam and life's sparks are but memories
against dimming eyes--what cast my mind, what hue my
thoughts as I open the Book of the Fallen
and breathe deep the scent of history?
Listen, then, to these words carried on that breath,
These tales are the tales of us all, again yet again.
We are history relived and that is all, without end that is all.

and finally...i love his writing. the man is a poet. it speaks to me.


i can't tell you if you should like it or read it. but i'll tell you this.
you should want to write this well.

[Zarathustra]

"Crankypants," huh? I'm glad you have a sense of humor, Luci. You see the smilies even when they're not there.

Okay, I can see your points. Anthropological studies of fictional worlds don't interest me much, but I can see where they might interest others. What confuses me the most (and this is probably the cause of my forlorn tone) is that Donaldson loves this series . . . and I know for a fact that "world building" is not something that impresses or interests him. He must have strong characters with clear needs/goals, and THAT must drive the story for him. So since he put his endorsment on the cover, I assume that somewhere this character element starts to kick in--which is what I was asking about. Do these characters care for anything other than their relative places in the game?


"you should want to write this well."

Oh, I write much better. I don't have a plot this "big," at least not in terms of number of participants, but I think my prose has a lyrical quality, whereas his is very dry and unimaginative. Just my opinion!

[lucimay]

Oh, I write much better. I don't have a plot this "big," at least not in terms of number of participants, but I think my prose has a lyrical quality, whereas his is very dry and unimaginative. Just my opinion!

you know...i might be impressed and even partially convinced...if i didn't know where you live.




you write better than steven erikson, do ya? well at least YOU'RE convinced. good thing your opinion's not carved in granite anywhere....limestone maybe, but not granite. got a publisher there in kentucky do ya?

[Zarathustra]

Publisher? No. But I've had a couple literary agents interested in the book. Most notably, James Allen of the Virginia Kidd agency (who handled Ursula K. LeGuin, Anne McCaffrey, Gene Wolfe, R.A. Lafferty, Alan Dean Foster, etc.). He had my manuscript in his possession when he died. I've told the story elsewhere in these threads. But basically, I got through the multiple stages of agent contact via query letter, synopsis, first three chapters, and finally the request for complete manuscript. So at least a professional read part of my work, and requested more. Sadly, he died before I heard anything on the whole manuscript.

Since then, I've been spending the last few years revising. I'm currently looking for agents once again, armed with a much better novel. I'm confident it will get sold. Whether or not I can "quit my day job" is another matter--only a small fraction of published authors make enough to do it full time. And honestly, I don't think it has mass market appeal, especially after reading what the masses are currently buying. The only current fantasy author I'm impressed with (besides Donaldson!) is G.R.R.Martin. But I'm always looking for more. Hence, my presence here.

I haven't given up on Erikson yet.

[duchess of malfi]

In answer to your question a couple of posts up:

There will be characters further on (including three of my favorites) whose focus is not on political plotting. Two of the three will appear in Deadhouse Gates. In the later books, there is often more emphasis on militray matters and on other story lines where mere survival is more of a focus for many of the characters than plotting.

I hope I have managed to answer your question without giving away explicit spoilers.

[The Somberlain]

I bought Gardens Of The Moon while on holiday after seeing people talk about him so much on the Watch... haven't got very far yet; just been introduced to Tattersail. It seems pretty good so far, though not (yet) as gripping as I might have been hoping. Not that I'm going to start judging an entire series on its first few pages.

[lucimay]

good grief...one more person to encourage past Gardens of the Moon!

honestly...i was sucked into these books immediately. i didn't have the problems with GotM that others seem to have and i know a few others that feel the same...Sorus and Variol Son just to mention a couple.

but really and truly...please Malik23 and the Somberlain...please continue on at LEAST through Deadhouse Gates.

if...after you've read DG and you don't like it...you're probably not going to.

[The Somberlain]

I'm now onto the next chapter and things have definitely begun to get interesting already. Being introduced to such a varied number of characters/factions so quickly (and the Dramatis Personae isn't really of much help), and skipping over big chunks of time between chapters made it kind of overwhelming, but events seem to be tying themselves together now.

[Sorus]

Stick with it. It's not easy reading. I started reading the series without really knowing a thing about it, and was somewhat unprepared for the depth of the world and the level of commitment required to really enjoy it. (Took me about a month to read GotM, and I usually read fast!)

But it's worth it. And Deadhouse Gates is... stunning. (Sitting here looking for a word to describe it.) The only other book I can compare it to is Chaos and Order, at least in terms of on-the-edge-of-your-seat, don't-forget-to-breathe reading.

I did go back and read GotM again after finishing DG, and enjoyed it even more the second time. (Reading it over again with a better understanding of the world made things I'd missed the first time around stand out.)

There's just so much detail - after I finish Bonehunters I'm going to have to go back and read the series all the way through again.

[The Somberlain]

Well, that definitely got a lot better very quickly. Deadhouse Gates is the next one, right? I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

[lucimay]

heh. he's hooked! ats what I'M talkin bout!