2nd Chronicles Health-sense.

[The Somberlain]

Was there ever an explanation as to why TC didn't get it back? For that matter, was there one in TPTP?

[Pitchbrew]

he did not receive the health sense beacuse he was not cured of his leprosy when he returned, there was no hurtloam to heal it, and the elohim would not remove it, they said that without it he would not have the ability to threaten Foul. which I take to mean that without it he would be able to feel his power physically and would refrain from using too, much power against foul....which caused a paradox for me while reading since if he could have felt his power he would not have been a threat to the eart at the one tree or in revelstone against gibbon, but without it foul would have been unstoppable....because he wouldn't have the will to threaten him...

[Xar]

Pitchbrew is right, although Covenant's leprosy was a disadvantage to him - as due to its presence, he couldn't heal himself from the venom - ultimately it also was the reason why he chose to undergo the caamora in the Banefire, and later became the guardian of the arch - if he had cleansed himself of the venom, he would have no reason to do so.

He didn't receive the health-sense in TPTP, much like for the same reason - he wasn't cured of his leprosy, which was actually in full swing at that time.

[kevinswatch]

Ok, I have another question that is simular to this, which has been bothering me for a while. I think SRD answered this in the GI, but I don't remember his explaination making any sense. I just want to get things straight in terms of who could use health-sense in each of the series. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

1st Chrons:
-Everyone in the Land can use health-sense, except Covenant, who needs to use hurtloam first?

2nd Chrons:
-Only Linden can use health-sense???
-Can the haruchai still use it???

3rd Chrons:

Spoiler

-Kevin's Dirt make it so everyone except the Haruchai can't use health-sense?
-Linden can use hurtloam or the Staff to temporarily cure Kevin's Dirt?

Am I right or wrong?-jay

[dlbpharmd]

Like I've said before, I think there's a real difference between Linden's health sense and the Land sight shared by the people of the Land, and the sight exhibited by the Haruchai.

So, Jay - to answer your question:

1st Chronicles - Yes

2nd Chronicles - Yes (to both)

3rd Chronicles -

Spoiler

yes

[kevinswatch]

Ok, now, my big question is, why couldn't anyone in the Land use health-sense during the Second Chronicles? I think SRD gave some answer in the GI along the lines of "because of the Sunbane", but personally, I just that answer is a little lame.-jay

[wayfriend]

Ok, now, my big question is, why couldn't anyone in the Land use health-sense during the Second Chronicles? I think SRD gave some answer in the GI along the lines of "because of the Sunbane", but personally, I just that answer is a little lame.-jay

Health-sense arises from Earthpower. Earthpower was corrupted by Foul. This led both to the Sunbane and the loss of health-sense. Consider: if the people of the Land retained health-sense, could they have been fooled by the Rede? Could a Raver have controlled the Clave? Foul needed it that way.

[kevinswatch]

Ok, I can accept that explaination. But I still have a problem with the whole 2nd/3rd Chronicles thing. It just seems like they're treating the same effect differently in both series. Now, I admit, that this is mainly a problem for me because of my obsessive-compulsive tendencies, heh. Let me see if I can explain what's bothering me.

Spoiler

So, in both the 2nd and 3rd Chrons, the people of the Land lose their health-sense. It's the same effect both times. Except the causes are different. In the 2nd, the cause was the Sunbane and Lord Foul. In the 3rd, we still don't know what the cause is.

In the 3rd Chrons, they give this effect a name, "Kevin's Dirt", and they (Linden & Co.) make a big deal about the fact that this effect exists. They actually make an effort (using the Staff) to give Linden and Liand back their health-sense abilities.

In the 2nd Chrons, they don't give this effect a name, and they hardly care about it. They don't make any effort to heal the people of the Land, to regain their health sense. Linden is able to use the health-sense, and that's that. There was no issue made about it, at least that I can remember. Except for the fact that Covenant complains about it a bit. But like I said, they didn't seem to care enough to make a deal about healing the problem, unlike the 3rd Chrons.

Perhaps it's simply because Linden had the health-sense in the 2nd Chrons (for whatever reasons, heh), and so she didn't care about solving this problem. But since she lacked the health-sense in the 3rd Chrons, she felt like she had to solve the problem right away. Isn't that a bit egotistical of her? Hehe.

Heh, like I said, this really isn't a problem, but more of my obsessive-compulsive nature. It just bothers me that we have the same effect in the 2nd and 3rd series, and these effects are treated differently both times.

-jay

[matrixman]

Both Jay and the Somberlain seem to be questioning some basic assumptions about the story that I thought we were all clear on. Ack! I think I'd have to summarize everything that happened in all the books in order to give a worthy answer.

Maybe Wayfriend can come to the rescue again. Wayfriend, please help our beleaguered and bewildered High Lord! (Uh, Xar, please pitch in, too!)

Come to think of it, Jay has even gotten me confused now...

[Nerdanel]

I have started a SPOILER thread relating to this on the Runes forum.

My answer to the difference between the 2nd and 3rd Chronicles:

Spoiler

The effect has gone much farther in the Second Chronicles While the lack of health-sense was a problem, it was dwarfed in immediacy by the Sunbane's other properties. Besides, with the evil of the Sunbane in full force, the health-sense had a large element of pure liability associated with it. In the Last Chronicles things aren't that bad... yet.

[CovenantJr]

I have started a SPOILER thread relating to this on the Runes forum.

My answer to the difference between the 2nd and 3rd Chronicles:

Spoiler

The effect has gone much farther in the Second Chronicles While the lack of health-sense was a problem, it was dwarfed in immediacy by the Sunbane's other properties. Besides, with the evil of the Sunbane in full force, the health-sense had a large element of pure liability associated with it. In the Last Chronicles things aren't that bad... yet.

Indeed. I think...

Spoiler

...the Land's relative normality in the Third Chrons made the lack of health-sense more apparent. And also, in the Second Chrons, Linden was still trying to come to terms with Land, without fretting over details, why Covenant, in Covenant fashion, was more concerned woth his own role in the big picture.

[Pitchbrew]

what about hile troy in tiwhe had unusual sight as well, able to view things from Kevin's Watch that Mhoram couldn't see...enjoy!!!!

[Xar]

I'll add my two cents...

There is a fundamental difference between the situation in the Second and Last Chronicles: but first, let me say that, as Nerdanel correctly points out, the Sunbane's horror would be enough to overwhelm anyone (especially Covenant, given how lovely he remembered the Land to be) and would positively cry out for a solution. In front of the Sunbane's Desecration, would you have wondered why the people of the Land lost their health-sense, or would you try to find a way to remove the Sunbane?
Also, as far as Covenant can imagine (I wont mention Linden, because in the SC she still has to come to grips with the Land), the loss of health-sense in the people of the Land and the Sunbane are related: remove the latter, and you will restore the former. In his own case, he knows the reason why he doesn't have the health-sense (his leprosy, as had happened in TPTP, as well), so when Linden manifests her health-sense, he simply takes it for granted ("ok, the Sunbane has laid on the Land for millennia, and caused the people of the Land to lose their health-sense. I am a leper, so I can't have health-sense. Linden is neither from the Land nor a leper, so it makes sense that she gets it.").

But another reason, which is probably the most important, is that in the SC, they have no way to recover the health-sense, even if they wanted to. Wild magic is too dangerous to use for such an issue, even if Covenant had the required degree of control over it; the Staff of Law doesn't exist; there is no hurtloam or Lore left that could help them recover the health-sense. So, all in all, the loss of health-sense in the SC is unavoidable and unresolvable - except by destroying the Sunbane.

Spoiler

In the LC, we see Linden's loss of health-sense from her own point of view; obviously, given the importance her health-sense had had for her in the SC, and given that she had no reason to believe she wouldn't get it back when she would return to the Land, I can easily imagine how shocked she must have been when she realized she had lost it; also, remember that in the FC, Covenant's Unbelief prevented him from fully embracing the Land's gifts - including the health-sense - and that he only would obtain it with hurtloam, so the loss of it is not too much of a surprise for him; for Linden, who had been forced to embrace the health-sense, to a degree no person in the Land had ever been able to reach, it must have been much like discovering she's blind.
And obviously, later in the book she acquires power - not only the white gold ring she had, but also the Staff of Law; she had managed to destroy the Sunbane with such power, so it's only natural that, realizing she does have the power and the possibility to restore her health-sense, she would do so. On this note, Kevin's Dirt is a much subtler danger than the Sunbane - much less noticeable, and hence, perceived as much less of an immediate threat to deal with, therefore the loss of health-sense, in relation to the danger of the Land, seems more important.

[Cmdr_Floyd]

just to add my ha'pennyworth - in the TPTP wasn't it Foul's unnatural winter that prevented Covenant from getting his health sense - and not only Covenant either - I'm sure Foamfollower & Bannoer expressed problems seeing people - hence the Ramens' distrust of Foamfollower in their covert....

[dlbpharmd]

Foul's winter was only indirectly responsible for TC not having Land sight, as there was no hurtloam to heal Covenant's leprosy.

Also, I believe the Ramen were distrustful of Foamfollower more for the simple fact that he was a Giant than any lack of discernment on their part.

[Pitchbrew]

The reason that Bannor and the Ramen chose not to immediately admit Foamfollower was because of the battle that was continuously raging inside Foamfollowers soul. His paradox was visible, the paradox between his peoples need and Covenants. (I know this is something that Covenant says just don't remember where). It had nothing to do with sight. Also because the only giants that they were away of were Ravers, they believed this because of the report by the mission to Seareach in TIW. Just a reminder...The answers are in the text, its not always up to us to point them out, if you don't like our answers you can always reread the books and look for yourselves. I have finished the first two series 9 times and Runes I have read twice. Its all in the amount of times you read the books. The more you read them, the more you pick up....

[wayfriend]

It would be fairer to say that, given that all the Giants in the Land either served Foul or were slain by Foul, and that Foamfollower's health-sense-visible confliction was indistinguishable from what a servant of the Despiser would eminate, the Ramen refused to trust Foamfollower merely because he was a Giant. They needed further evidence. The integrity of the Giants was no longer assumed - which was a very sad thing.

Regarding the differences between the Second and Final Chronicles, I would say this:

Spoiler

First of all, health-sense seems to be a local phenomena. The people of the Land have it. The Land's Giants have it (which seems to make Coercri part of the Land). But the Brathair do not have it. The Home Giants don't have it. Wherever Kasreyn is from, he doesn't have it. SRD says "the first six books hint in various ways that Earthpower (while arguably universal) flows closer to the surface, or is more accessible, in the Land than elsewhere". So we can establish that health-sense is linked to the Land and to Earthpower.

In LFB, Covenant arrives from outside the Land. Hurtloam heals his leprosy; but it takes a subsequent bolt of lightning and wild magic for him to acquire the health-sense. Upon his return in TIW, the hurtloam heals his leprosy; the return of the health-sense may have been granted by the hurt-loam, or it may have been latent but unusable until Covenant's nerves were healed. But it is clear that healing his leprosy is not identical to restoring Covenant's health-sense. If you're from outside the Land, health-sense has to be granted to you, it is not native to you. Hence the bolt of lightning - Covenant is granted, in a flash, what he would acquire had he lived in the Land all along.

Now, the Bloodguard lived in the Land for thousands of years. This is enough, to me, for the Bloodguard to acquire health-sense. They've been living in the Land, absorbing the Earthpower. It would not be a ludicrous claim to say that the Haruchai, in the Westron Mountains, don't have the health-sense, before they become Bloodguard.

In the Second Chronicles, the people of the Land lose the health-sense. This happened "over generations" (SRD). If the health-sense is linked to the Earthpower which is 'closer to the surface' in the Land, then the Sunbane corruption could very well destroy the necessary balance. The Haruchai which come to the Land didn't have it to begin with, and there was no longer a way to acquire it in the Land, ergo, they lack health-sense. Ditto Covenant. (Linden, as dlb points out, is a special case.)

In the Final Chronicles, the people of the Land seem to have lost the health-sense again. Linden can restore it temporarilly with the Staff. Linden didn't have the Staff, and she didn't have the understanding of Law which the Staff provides, in the Second Chronicles. So she could not give health sense to anyone at that time. If she can now, it is justified by these conditions.

However, Kevin's Dirt is very different from the Sunbane. The health-sense doesn't seem to be lost, gone, absent. It seems to be blocked or suspended. This is evident in that the health-sense she restores is lost in a short time. Not 'over generations'. And it is only lost only when "in" the Dirt - health-sense 'sticks' above the Dirt or outside the Dirt. So the Dirt is covering up the health-sense, not eliminating it. (It is not like the Sunbane very much at all). Note that Sunder and Hollian did not regain any health-sense when they left the Sunbane - the health-sense was gone, not blocked. And the Haruchai Masters, who have lived in the Land, seem to have health-sense as well, although Linden must unblock it the same as anyone else.

In that light, in the Final Chronicles, Linden is only uncovering the health-sense which people already have; she is not creating health-sense from scratch, which she probably would have had to do under the Sunbane. Which is another reason that it didn't happen in the Second Chronicles.

[Pitchbrew]

That is a great post!!!! Thanx Wayfriend

[Nerdanel]

I think we should really discuss this on the spoiler forum, but anyway...

Spoiler

As I think Kevin's Dirt is an early stage of the Sunbane, there isn't necessarily any contradiction. It makes sense that removing the healt-sense completely is a deeper effect than just masking it. Since the Sunbane developed gradually it could have taken a lot of time to develop into the necessarily strength to remove the health-sense and could have at first just masked it since the health-sense was possibly the biggest obstacle in the path of the further development of the Sunbane. There would have been no way of getting a Raver in charge if everyone had their health-sense and a Raver in charge was a crucial component in making the Banefire happen. I think something like Kevin's Dirt could have been very useful in the initial stage.

Also, I think we have reason to assume that Kevin's Dirt appeared over generations. I think Linden would have heard by now if that wasn't case. However Stave hasn't said anything to the effect that x years ago people suddenly lost their health-sense overnight. I think it took quite a while for the present amount of Kevin's Dirt to gather, that Kevin's Dirt that in its shape is suspiciously reminescent of the way the layer of the Sunbane lay upon the Land.

Besides, in the Second Chronicles no inhabitant of the Land was actually given their health-sense back (offscreen in the last few pages excepted). Linden had hers from the start and Covenant's was impeded by leprosy. We don't know if the people of the Land would have lost their health-sense again.

[dlbpharmd]

I'm not gonna spoiler this comment, as it relates to LFB:

In LFB, Covenant arrives from outside the Land. Hurtloam heals his leprosy; but it takes a subsequent bolt of lightning and wild magic for him to acquire the health-sense. Upon his return in TIW, the hurtloam heals his leprosy; the return of the health-sense may have been granted by the hurt-loam, or it may have been latent but unusable until Covenant's nerves were healed. But it is clear that healing his leprosy is not identical to restoring Covenant's health-sense. If you're from outside the Land, health-sense has to be granted to you, it is not native to you. Hence the bolt of lightning - Covenant is granted, in a flash, what he would acquire had he lived in the Land all along.

I just don't remember this this way - I recall that Covenant knew the storm was wrong before the bold of lightning.