Why didn't Covenant forsee the failure of the one tree quest

[Guest]

As I was reading TOT I was getting more and more depressed . There were so many signs that the quest for the one tree was going to fail, and I kept hoping that Covenant would see this but he didn't, and I got so frustrated.

The whole idea of the quest was born in Covenant's mind after the soothtell. In the soothtell he saw the importance of the staff of law for the land and he felt guilty for destroying it. But he didn't give much thought to how he was going to achieve his goal. Did he think that he would just find the tree and cut off a branch? Surely he new enough about the land to realize that it would not work. It would require at least the lore of a hirebrand and special invocations etc. etc. Nothing in the land works by using force, he would have needed the consent of the one tree to get a branch. Why didn't he try to find out how Berek made the staff?

Then there was the issue of the knowledge of the location of the one tree. Caer-Caveral put this knowledge in Covenant's mind, and said that when the time comes he will find means to unlock it. This reminded me of Amok from the first Chronicles. Covenant should have rememberd his experience with the power of command, and known that it isn't good to force things before their time has come.
Another sign was the reluctance of the Elohim to uncover that knowledge. Even Linden shouted at Covenant "Not that way!" when he asked them to unlock that knowledge.
Yet another sign was Seadreamer's increasing dismay as they were getting nearer to their destination.

Was it guilt and the need for retribution that made him blind to all these signs?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Pitchwife

[saltheart foamfollower]

i think your right. it was folly for tc to do that. but since tc isnt perfect,he does make mistakes like anyone else.
also, the hole " nothing in the land gets acheved by force" theory is very smart of you, but it also is folly in my aspect,(not insulting)
in the first crons, your theory was right. but in the second, 2000 years later, it is practically vise versa.
stonedowns use FORCE to sacrifice people.
towns use FORCE to battle and take over eachother.
in fact, the clave is the only ones that dont use force. they use magic, black magic. so even though your slightly wrong,pitchwife, your theory seems very plausible and I compliment you for thinking it up

-rocky

[JD]

Without the quest for the one tree, Convenant never would hav encountered the Elohim and Findail wouldn't have been present to become a part of the New Staff of Law. Even though Convenants plan to use the actual One Tree almost doomed the entire Land, he needed to experience that failure to help him overcome Foul.

[robo]

What alternative did Covenant have? He just wanted to keep moving.

[KaosArcana]

Could Covenant have defeated the Clave if he had remained in the
Land? The Haruchai would have done him no good as they weren't
able to free themselves from the coercion of the Clave until after
Cail met the Merewives ... so it would basically have been Covenant
vs. all the Riders of the Clave ... and at that time he didn't really have
the control of his power needed to be able to fight all of them ....

[robo]

Covenant thought about going against The Clave but decided against it. As I recall he didn't want to use his Ring to kill anyone.

[danlo]

Not only did the quest cost dear Cable his life but it did, in a way, redeem the Haruchai and if ol' Vain never started 2 turn in2 wood LA could never have begun 2 heal The Land! Oh and another thing **coffee begins 2 kick in danlo starts thinking, oh nooo! ** Not only does TC begin 2 believe in The Land in the 2nd Chrons, but he begins 2 believe in himself--perhaps the quest IS the only thing he feels HE can do, or has ever done, 2 actively help The Land. He's caught in a very weird phsycological position: I have been given, somehow, by my dead, the means of finding The One Tree, Vain (I have no ideal y) and I was implored by Bannor 2 redeem his people--not only am I beginning 2 believe in The Land but I may actually have real use and purpose in The Land (it all hinges on the "dreams of the dead", eerie isn't it?). Covenant clings on 2 things 2 tight (as we have all seen), the ring being 1 example, perhaps he is clinging 2 tightly 2 what he precieves as his use or purpose. So he becomes obssesed about the quest, on the other hand he needs 2 find the means 2 redeem the Haruchai. What does this mean? Perhaps by clinging 2 tightly 2 himself he never really learns the lesson that everything that happens in The Land is affected and given strenght by him. Perhaps the Waynhim, Haruchai and Elohim precieve that the power of the white gold will soon leave them (or has) and know they will lose strenght--thus becoming much less effective 2 fight the Clave on their own. I know I'm starting 2 sound confusing but I guess my point is this: Take 4 example Covenant sending out Sunder and Hollihan 2 rally The Land while he is off on the quest--they really can't do anything effective when he is gone. The only places being affected is where TC, or the ring, IS: perhaps Brinn gains more strenght than he knows fighting the Kenaustin Ardenol BECAUSE TC and the ring r near, the same thing, in a way, happens 2 Cail. The strenght 2 fight the Good loses it's effect where he isn't and Foul is constanly filling in all the gaps left behind. Perhaps TC is beginning 2 believe in The Land and himself but by selfishly "clinging" he doesn't realize that if he expands his consious--or disperses his love and power in the proper ways he actually aides his "subconcious" allies, for example: The Giants, Elohim, Haruchai, Waynhim, etc... Where does Vain come in2 all of this? Hell I don't know (now I'M getting confused by my own argument). Perhaps Lord Foul's basic trick is 2 get TC so focused and obsessed on him he can't expand or disperse. Perhaps Vain is the great equalizer (between Good & Evil)--combine that w/Findal (earthpower) and u'll have The Land back--but I suspect it will b a very different Land than what we expect, if SRD ever writes the 3rd Chrons, not as beautiful as in the 1st--mayb not as nasty as in the 2nd but a very different, perhaps, metaphysical land. One last point b4 u start poking even MORE holes in my argument--I do believe that the concept of "strenght" is a very important 1 in the 2nd Chrons: The people came back--on their own-- from Kevin's land wasting in the 1st Chrons. The TC factor aside, there was a great deal of intrinsic "strenght" in The Land in the 1st Chrons--in the people, the Lords, the Staff of Law and earthpower. So 2 back up my theory on clinging 2 strenght and power it needed 2 b dispersed by TC in the 2nd Chrons because he appears 2 b the only "strenght" left. He never exerts his strenght--xcept in certian key spots and it's usually because LA has kicked him in the ass, or head.

[pitchwife]

rocky,
What you say about using force is a very interesting insight, and I'd like to take it a step further. I'll refine what I said earlier: Any use of earthpower in the land is not done by using force, and maybe I would even go further and say that using force to wield earthpower causes devastating results.
The power of the clave did not stem from earthpower, as you say it is black magic, and the people of the land at the era of the sunbane had to resort to using force because they lost the ability to use the earthpower.

I agree that without the quest there would be no second Chronicles. But there were many ways the story could evolve. There were many ways to deal with the sunbane situation. The Elohim say that the Appointed will pay the price if other ways fail. That gives me a hint that there were other possibilities. I'm trying to understand why Covenant chose this way.

danlo,
Now that you bring up the issue of Vain, I'm realizing that the dead in Andelain gave Covenant two possible ways to obtain a new Staff of Law. 1 is the location of the One Tree, and the 2nd is Vain. Why didn't Covenant want to know the purpose of Vain?
Your theory about Covenant clinging to the ring and to his "use" is interesting, I need to give it some thought.
pitchwife

[Hearthcoal]

There is one other aspect to these questions and that is the intent of SRD the Writer. In one of his interviews, he stated that

The ideal balance in a book is that absolutely everything is aimed like a laser at the climax of the book. Despite the length of my work, I think of myself as being a very tight writer; there is actually nothing extraneous there. It may take up narrative space but it is not extraneous. That's because I am striving always to make sure that whatever I do is leading us there. I use the analogy of architecture: the structure I am building needs justifying in that particular way: any lintel or cornice or joist or roofing slate that doesn't fit that purpose must be disposed of...

Assuming that SRD achieved his goal when he wrote TCTC2, specifically The One Tree, then the Quest was written for a purpose, aimed like a laser at the climax of the book, it may take up narrative space but it is not extraneous.

Yet, as Pitchwife points out, the reader can see that the Quest is doomed, even if TC cannot see it.

So I am left wondering how the Quest ties into the climax. Is it just a narrative vehicle used to "corner" TC, exhausting his options until he is left with no other choice but to ....BIG SPOILER HERE EVERYONE WHO IS STILL READING THE BOOKS AND DOESN'T NOW HOW THEY END... give the ring to LF?

Now if you want to discuss how well SRD manages to accomplish his goal of laser-like writing, drop by SRD - the Writer put in your two cent's worth.

[danlo]

As I briefly mention above Covenant was obsessed by the quest and redeeming his mistakes of the past. His dead give him purpose--but he ruins alot of that purpose by being obsessive. Another MAJOR theme of the 2nd Chrons is posession, but aren't posession & obsession inveritably linked? aren't they really the same side (or sides) of the same coin? So that totally justifies ROCKY's arguement--if posession IS forced--obsession must b 2: both warping what little is left of earthpower. So the Elohim may have "mutated" from their original form or intent--just by Covenant's mere presence (obsession). Wow I never looked at it that way! What about Vain? I guess I'll leave that subject 4 another time--but Vain IS a gift from SHFF's specter yet he is also Demondim-spawn--in that case he IS equalized--no wonder TC doesn't kno what 2 make of him...But he also has some good in him which indicates that his makers had an ounce of concious-thus constituting a mistake (of original intent) by Foul. No wonder he connects w/the jheherrin! Remember (back 2 the obsession/posession theme) TC was, somewhat, posessed from within by the venom...as well.

[Guest]

hmm, speaking of obsession, are we (the fans) obsessed with TCTC?

Is obsession bad? is possesion bad? is this another moral dillema that SRD want's us to think about?

pitchwife

[Bahgoon_the_Unbearable]

Ok here's my guess. Perhapes Covenant didn't see all of the signs that the quest would fail, I mean he knew that in his world he was lying helplessly with a knife wound in his chest. Covenant knew that he was going to die unless he could send back Linden, I believe that the reason he did not stop the quest is because his will to send linden back to save his life blinded him. The staff of law was his only hope to survive long enough to kill LF, he wanted to hold on to that hope and in the end he made the quest fail by trying to desperatly create a staff of law. In the end he was blinded by desperation, and he believed that the power of the ring was strong enough to make up for the lack of knowledge that he had about creating a Staff of Law.

[Prince of Amber]

O.K I may have missed something here, but didn't Mhoram The Dead say to Covenant - 'That which you seek lies outside the Land' or something like that. In hindsight he wasn't talking about a new Staff from the tree but still.., also there was the fact that the sunbane was achieved because of the lack of the staff, (and he knew this form the soothtell), what else could he think of doing?

[Skyweir]

I agree .. what else could TC have thought?? So many factors entered the play here ..

1. Sending LA back for her own protection and to save his dying physical body

2. Being compelled by the desire to make things right .. restoring the Staff of Law .. defeating the Clave ..

3. Respecting the guidance given him by his beloved 'dead'

He had to instigate The Quest for the One Tree .. from where he stood .. I dont think there were any other possibility that he could perceive.

The things he was unable to perceive also required TC to seek the voyage of the One Tree ..

For example .. he HAD to encounter the Elohim .. Findail had to be secured .. and become a member of his party .. Without Findail the future staff of law would lack earthpower .. the very essence of the Staff.

Brinn had to battle the Guardian and become Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol .. to save his people that

the word of the bloodguard Bannor ... [be] carried to its end

[p446 ch 25 The Arrival of the Quest TOT]

Had the questors failed to seek the Isle of the One Tree .. this great boon to the Haruchai could never have been secured .. and the suppication of Bannor to TC in Andelain to save his people .. would have been cast aside and not been able to be fulfilled ..

And let us not forget the kind counsel TC received from High Lord Mhoram ..

Do not be deceived by the Land's need. The thing you seek is not what it appears to be

[p472 ch 27 The Long Grief TOT]

So much was gained and so much was learned among the losses incurred through the Quest for the One Tree .. and the things that were gained were of immense worth to the healing and future of the Land ..

The Quest had to be ..

What has always frustrated me when reading the 2nd chrons is why TC couldnt figure that Vain's woodiness was related to the Staff of Law in someway .. He didnt have to figure it all .. but he was wearing the heels of the staff before his limbs began turning to wood ..

But then again TC wasnt known for being so smart .. so I am forced to forgive him his lack of foresight on this .. among several other occassions

[danlo]

Thanks Sky 4 making my point clearer in regards 2 Brinn's defeat of the Kenaustin Ardenol as the onset of the Haruchai's redemption. U have also brought up a subject that I have been trying 2 research--but am still not 2 clear on--strains of Good in the baddies. Perhaps TC didn't have a clue that Vain was related in any way 2 the 1 tree--remember that @ 1 point he SO didn't kno what 2 make of Vain that @ times almost discounted his existence--he probably said, "Oh ol' Vain is always doing the weirdest things I can't fathom, so rings of the Staff of Law, his arm turning 2 wood--that's just more of his weirdness (he never totally gave up the idea that Vain, as Demondim-spawn, wasn't somehow connected 2 Foul--thus 'messing w/his head'). That sounds funny 4 some reason! I can just c TC saying 2 Vain, "Hellfire Vain! will u STOP messing w/my head!" . Anyway back 2 obsession: perhaps TC is so obsessed with his "precieved" failure of the quest that he only focuses on that and not on Vain.--Here's what I've been researching (and I'm not sure I have the historical timeline down yet): The Viles, who created the Demondim-spawn, because Foul rendered them sterile (is that right?) were known back 2 the time of Berek as a high and lofty race. Well u can c that my research needs alot more work--but u can c what I'm proposing 2 get @: Even tho Foul corrupted the Viles it seems 2 me that there has 2 b a certian element of Good being passed through these corrupted creations--how else do u xplain the Waynhim, the jheherrin--Vain's creation? Obviously I still need 2 do a buch of work on tracking all this down and this is probably a whole dif topic in itself--help me out guys this is a fascinating subject. btw: 2 b techincally correct when I talk about the jheherrin on the above posts in reference 2 the 2nd Chrons I should have refered 2 them as the sub-jheherrin.

[Skyweir]

or sur-jheherrin even ..

mmm .. you have provided a lot of food for thought there Danlo .. I must away to digest some of it ..

brb

[aliantha]

Didn't one of Covenant's Dead also as much as tell him that the quest for the One Tree would fail? Not just, "The thing you seek is not what it appears to be," but wasn't it more like, "You have to go, but you won't find what you think you need there"? I'll have to go look it up.... But it seems to me that Covenant pretty much knew from the get-go that the quest was doomed to fail. Just as, as soon as he sent Linden back to heal him, and she came back and told him that *he* would also have to go back in order to save himself, he knew that he was doomed.

Now that I think about it, I think maybe it was at that point that he finally threw his in lot with the Land. In the 1st Chrons, he pleads with Mhoram to let him go back and save the little girl who was bitten by the snakebite. For TC, at that point, the needs of our world overshadowed whatever was happening in the Land. In the 2d Chrons, TC has to choose between abandoning everyone in the Land or saving his own life, and he chooses the needs of the Land. In both cases, he chooses the crisis he's immediately enmeshed in, rather than leaving that one to deal with another -- so maybe it's just a habit of TC's to pick the most immediate crisis. But I think there's more to it. I mean, choosing whether to save your own life is pretty important.

[Tohrm]

Danlo, I feel that you have brought up some good points. Yes, Covenant felt he had to go on his quest to find the one tree. I do not believe that he realised that it was going to fail. But here is where I am going to throw my two cents in. It failed because it had to fail! If it had not failed, then TC would not have had the inner strength to battle the clave in an out and out battle! Do not forget that ever since the very first (LFB), TC had been trying to find ways to not have to kill people at all. He was always doing whatever he could to preserve life, otherwise (I'm putting myself in his head at this point) he would be no better than Fouls' lapdogs (the ravers), or LF himself.
He would always be able to point to everyone that had been killed by the bloodguard, or the lords and be able to say, "Their blood is not on my hands!" Even when he was about to die at the end of LFB, he would not raise his hand to call the fire lions. It took Bannor to place his hand on the Staff of Law.
Now, don't get me wrong. I feel that it is wrong to kill as much as just about anybody else. But to preserve my life, I don't think that I would hesitate. Even in a dream.
SRD is trying to make a point here, I think. That TC is responsible, whether he accepts it or not. But there is another point here that I am not certain of. I think that SRD is trying to get TC to the point of acceptance that TC is not only the white gold, but that he is as much a part of the land as High Revelstone.

[Skyweir]

Yes you raise some excellent and intriguing points yourself .. but there was no real failure .. only in TC's limited perception of the facts. He viewed it as failure because he believed he did not secure the wood of the one tree to fashion a new staff of Lore. We .. the observers .. know that that was not the case ..

He had in his possession the staff .. in Vain and Findail .. he just didnt know it then .. His quest was a resounding success .. he just didnt realise it!

As for your point that TC needed to perceive the quest as a failure to give him the gumption to take on the clave .. I agree .. that may well be the case. TC felt desperate because of his personally deemed failure .. and harnassed the power of despair and used to bring about the great good he hoped and which was his original intent to achieve.

I really believe the element of despair had to be harnassed by TC .. to fulfill the prophetic verses .. of the paradox .. which is the white gold and the white gold wielder ..

[danlo]

'That which you seek lies outside the Land' -- I always thought that Findal was the answer 2 that dilemma...but that may also include finding inner strength and self awareness...