Kevin's Watch

[This topic contains detailed speculation about the End of Final Chronicles, which may, for some Watch members, contain information that could be considered spoiler material. Be advised! dlbpharmd]

SRD has hinted in the GI that this is "Not called the 'Last Chronicles' for nothing."

So does this mean that The Land is utterly destroyed? Foul is finally turned into a foul-smelling (heh) wind that dissapates in the breeze? Covenant and Linden are destroyed, both in body and soul?

I hope it's the second option above, and not the first or third.

I think this was discussed in another thread, but my is that he has planned to write this (since the 2nd Chrons) as a trilogy and that he has no intention of a fourth. Having said that, I guess it is debatable whether the Land will utterly be destroyed or something cataclysmic like that will occur. I tend to believe that he is just going to tell a story the best way he can that has an ending satifying to himslef ... whcih will have no need for a continuation. This could be somthing like Gap or even Mordant's Need.
The world wasn't estroyed there, but the story ran its course as far as SRD wanted to tell it.

I think the Land will indeed be destroyed and a new version made.

I also think Covenant will pay with his soul to stop Foul this time. If you list the prices Covenant has paid, they have increased steadily. I think nothing less than a dissolution of his being remains undone. I think Covenant will end up merging with Lord Foul. If it's only those two merging, I think the result would be evil but with a weak spot like love for Linden that could be exploited by Linden to destroy him, whereas I think a trinity, like Covenant/Linden/Foul could be stable (compare: Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva) and sufficiently non-evil to recreate the Land as a fairly nice place.

Personally, I also think that a merging of sorts will be in order, but for different reasons than Nerdanel, and ultimately, perhaps with different results. As I see it, Covenant has found two answers to Despite thus far: the first, the easiest but also the least effective, is just to fight it. The second, more effective, requires accepting that there is Despite in each of us, and that fighting it accomplishes nothing. I think the third and most effective is to acknowledge that the Despiser in each of us is not a separate being, or something we don't have any control over, but actually a part of us which we choose to feed, a part of us which we control and which acts because it's what we want deep inside. In a sense, I think the third and most lasting answer is to acknowledge that Foul isn't simply part of Covenant, but rather, that Foul IS Covenant, and Covenant is Foul. As long as one believes that his darker half is somewhat "independent" from one's consciousness, one cannot act effectively to purge himself of it; it's only by realizing that your darker half is still you, and you are the one who feeds it, acts upon its urgings, and keeps it alive, that you can finally act to cleanse yourself of it.

So in this sense, I believe the cryptic phrase by SRD, "Covenant becomes Foul", could be taken that way: Covenant accepts not just that Foul is a part of him, at least in a metaphorical sense, but that he's responsible for it and ultimately it is up to him to decide whether to keep feeding it or not.

But I still believe the end of the Land is at hand. The Land has already lost so much; SRD himself said that the story tends towards entropy; and given the double-layer symbolism of the series (not the real/not real dualism, but rather the internal/external dualism of meanings), the destruction of the Land (and its possible re-creation, although I doubt it will happen) would symbolize the end of Covenant's journey.

Part of me imagines the end in a similar way as the end of TPTP: the Land is destroyed, and Covenant and the others die; but they die triumphant, and laughing because they have won, and even once the Land's Earth is destroyed, their victory will remain. Probably cheesy

Excellent post, Xar!

At this point I believe that I need to add a warning to the title, and place a warning in the initial post. This thread, while an excellent topic, is heading in the direction of detailed speculation, and that area has caused some problems with some Watch members before.

Carry on!

Excellent post indeed Xar.

The end of the Land is at hand.

Damn, I remember the shock of TWL. I thought we got off light in Runes, (except for the fall of the Watch), which didn't have that gut-wrenching sense of loss to it that TWL did.

But I suspect that the worst is yet to come...

--A

Avatar wrote:Excellent post indeed Xar.

The end of the Land is at hand.

Damn, I remember the shock of TWL. I thought we got off light in Runes, (except for the fall of the Watch), which didn't have that gut-wrenching sense of loss to it that TWL did.

But I suspect that the worst is yet to come...

--A

Actually, I dreaded Runes while I was reading it. The horror is not as clearly manifested as in TWL, but there is a subtler horror lurking beneath the surface. First of all, there is a general feeling of apathy: the intense joy of living of the people of the Land, or at the very least their curiosity and activity, has been curtailed by the Masters. Even the Stonedownors in TWL were active, and hardened by the Sunbane; but the Stonedownors in Runes simply do not do anything more than what they are required to do by the Masters (with the possible exception of Liand). They have lost the energy their ancestors had, and this can only partly be attributed to their loss of health-sense. But there is a more profound apathy: look at all we see in Runes. The Masters are content with their dominion, and would continue indefinitely if left to their own devices; the countryside and the wilderness have reverted to a potentially more pristine, but also more lonesome appearance; No one among Stonedownors or Woodhelvennin apparently questions the Masters or attempts to escape; the whole history of the Land has been forgotten.

But underneath this feeling of general apathy, we have caesures roaming the wilderness and large packs of kresh doing the same: we have skurj, Kastenessen, now we have the Demondim, and who knows what else. I think the horror in Runes is much subtler - but much more insidious than in TWL: the people of the Land have forgotten their dangers, and have no skill or lore with which to meet them, now that they are manifesting in many different forms. Even during the Sunbane there was some lore left, even though it was the twisted Rede of the Clave; a corruption of Earthpower, sure, but the Quest used it more than once to their advantage, and helped them whereas without it they would have failed. But now there is no such lore: the Masters have completely cut off the people of the Land from any ability to defend themselves effectively. In a very real sense, they're children; and if the skurj or another such great menace reaches them, they will go to slaughter like lambs, because they will have no way to protect themselves... Foul (or the Masters) hasn't corrupted the body of the Land this time: he has corrupted its spirit.

Very true. It's not what we see in Runes that is "frightening," it's what is implied by the fact that we can see these things at all.

A more creeping and insidious evil indeed. But not something I found as profoundly disturbing as I did the changes we were immediately confronted with in TWL.

However, as you point out, in analysis, even more disturbing in terms of what they say about the current state of the Land.

--A

excellent post Xar.

I've always thought that Foul was a part that the Creator cast off of himself. He cleaned himself of despite once he discovered what he had done to his world during it's creation. This in turn made him weaker than he was when he created it. He needed TC to help him get the Foul part of himself back to be whole again, while at the same time he was trying to save his creation. What Creator would want to destroy something he had built?
The sad fact is that the Creator may not be able to save his World. He is after all A Creator. All things should be possible. The Law he set in place has trapped him and he is looking for a way out! He needs some outside factor to show him that way or to teach him that way. He is not complete since he 'shed' his Foul part. Thus the need for first TC and now LA.

I see the end as a end to the World of the Land and the Creator becoming one with Foul again. Once he is complete he will build a new world the way the first one should have been. A world without a Despiser, or at least one with the choice to despise or not. Such as our world, but with the Earthpower and magic we all have grown to love.
Sappy maybe, but that is how I see it.

Easy way to fix Lord Foul:

1. Send him back in time through a caesure

2. Do something to fix it so there are no more caesures

Twill be interesting to see what develops. The problem with Last Chronicles is that, quite honestly, I don't even want to see the Land saved anymore. The biggest thing that distinguished the original Chronicles was how SRD made us care about the Land. I've yet to find another fantasy setting where we are made to believe that Yes, this is a place worth preserving, with the exception that the evil guys are Nazis times 10 and we oppose them on principle.

In the 2nd Chronicles, that previous great Land is destroyed, but we still long for it, and the hurt that has been inflicted is too great to bear. Something broken indeed.

In the Last Chronicles, the problem is that the Land is no longer attractive, it seems to lack attractive people that we care about a la Mhoram, and it is no longer under the horror of the Sunbane we can oppose in principal. Instead, it's just another dreary, same old, same old landscape. Why bother? After thousands of years, the old Land is not even a faded memory any more. And for whatever reason (potentially even SRD laziness), we're still dealing with the decendands of the same people we had before. Total statis or better yet as someone mentioned, entropic decline. I think the Creator has got to be sorely tempted to just blow the whole thing away and start over.

How does it end?

I believe its fairly clear that the world is going to burn...

There are so many references to Kastenesen, and fires during Linden's transformation to the land. I don't believe that SRD sets up 'red herrings'.

I'm also struck on re-reading TROTE (and this may be covered in other threads) by the analogue of the description of the condition of Haven Farm as Linden finds it, and the condition of the Land. And the ultimate fate is destruction by fire. I don't believe that such comparisons are coincidental.

I start my 'ending' contemplation from the point - the world WILL be destroyed in fire. However, there are so many possibilities which have been set up during TROTE and the Second Chronicles, that there will clearly be much more to it than that. And clearly TC will be pivotal to it.

Xar, I think you are very close to what will happen. Thematically, it is the next logical step.

The common elements between the Covenant books and The Lord of the Rings books have been well discussed. But I'm surprised that the Narnia parallels have not been studied. The multiple worlds, the time difference between the worlds, the Witch's exile into the world containing Narnia, etc. So for the ending to the Land, I'd look to "The Last Battle." Not that I understood the ending to THAT book myself, and I can't even start to think of how it might be translated into the "The Last Dark." (but the similar name is pretty interesting, eh?)

Good post, Xar.

i am surprised people aren't mentioning the Elohim or the Worm at earth's end in this discussion, or for that matter, the rest of the world the Land exists in at all. for instance, remember the Sandgorgons? the croyel? the giants homeland? also, i don't buy into the idea of a definitive ending, ala the Land being destroyed. if anything, i see a resolution which returns the Land to a more "natural" existance, where man co-exists with nature in harmony, the way the Creator originally intended. that isn't to say there won't be a steep price to pay to achieve that.

Peven wrote:i am surprised people aren't mentioning the Elohim or the Worm at earth's end in this discussion, or for that matter, the rest of the world the Land exists in at all. for instance, remember the Sandgorgons? the croyel? the giants homeland? also, i don't buy into the idea of a definitive ending, ala the Land being destroyed. if anything, i see a resolution which returns the Land to a more "natural" existance, where man co-exists with nature in harmony, the way the Creator originally intended. that isn't to say there won't be a steep price to pay to achieve that.

That would be nice, but it's hardly possible, for at least two reasons I can think of:

1) SRD has said that entropy is a law which the Chronicles follow, therefore everything diminishes. Even Covenant's victories do not restore the world to the state it was in before Foul meddled with it, they just remove Foul's influence for a while. But given this theme, it's highly unlikely that the Land could ever return to its pristine state.

2) Foul can't be destroyed until the Arch of Time crumbles, because it preserves him. Similarly, he cannot be released until the Arch of Time is destroyed. Either way, unless you remove the Arch of Time you won't get rid of him permanently, and if you remove the Arch, the Land's Earth will end.

Xar wrote:

Peven wrote:i am surprised people aren't mentioning the Elohim or the Worm at earth's end in this discussion, or for that matter, the rest of the world the Land exists in at all. for instance, remember the Sandgorgons? the croyel? the giants homeland? also, i don't buy into the idea of a definitive ending, ala the Land being destroyed. if anything, i see a resolution which returns the Land to a more "natural" existance, where man co-exists with nature in harmony, the way the Creator originally intended. that isn't to say there won't be a steep price to pay to achieve that.

That would be nice, but it's hardly possible, for at least two reasons I can think of:

1) SRD has said that entropy is a law which the Chronicles follow, therefore everything diminishes. Even Covenant's victories do not restore the world to the state it was in before Foul meddled with it, they just remove Foul's influence for a while. But given this theme, it's highly unlikely that the Land could ever return to its pristine state.

2) Foul can't be destroyed until the Arch of Time crumbles, because it preserves him. Similarly, he cannot be released until the Arch of Time is destroyed. Either way, unless you remove the Arch of Time you won't get rid of him permanently, and if you remove the Arch, the Land's Earth will end.

a return to a balance does not necessarily mean a return to a pristine state. it simply means a return to a balance. and entropy, after all, is all about balance, things evening out, not necesarily diminishing. then again, with the aspect of time becoming non-linear, who knows. that is a wild card here. as for #2, who says Foul has to be destroyed for a balance? i always looked at Foul as an inescapable ingredient to the Land, you can't have good without evil and all that jazz, and his rises and falls from power were no different than the cycles of the natural world. spring/summer/fall/winter, birth, life, death, repeat. after finishing the first chronicles i thought SRD made it clear that removing Foul was not a realistic goal, it simply wasn't possible without destroying all that was good as well. if the resolution in the Final Chronicles entails destroying Foul, and the Land itself, then what was the purpose of the journey of the series, for both the characters in it and we the readers?? i don't buy that fatalistic, pointless pov, and i don't think SRD does either. there would be no lesson to be learned aside from "life is a b*tch, then you die".

It's been postulated that if the Land is utterly destroyed, then Covenant would be a willing participant (for reasons unknown). But it's hard to imagine that he'd doom so many people who live in the Earth under the Arch.

It's possible that the end of the Land is not utter destruction, but a terrible transformation that 'detaches' it (for lack of a better word) from Covenant and Linden, and makes it inaccessible from our 'real' world, while somehow, somewhere, something continues. Sort of a detached universe theory, if you allow that now the Land is not a detached universe but attached through Covenant and Lindens needs and attached by a magical means of summoning.

Romeo wrote:The common elements between the Covenant books and The Lord of the Rings books have been well discussed. But I'm surprised that the Narnia parallels have not been studied. The multiple worlds, the time difference between the worlds, the Witch's exile into the world containing Narnia, etc. So for the ending to the Land, I'd look to "The Last Battle." Not that I understood the ending to THAT book myself, and I can't even start to think of how it might be translated into the "The Last Dark." (but the similar name is pretty interesting, eh?)

I actually gassed on a bit about the resemblances between the Land and Narnia in, of all places, an email to SRD. (He was courteous enough to reply in person to a GI query that he chose not to publish online, and this is how I rewarded him. I'm a heel.) If anybody is interested, I could excerpt the relevant bits of my screed and post them here.