Was Holt necessary for the survival of humanity?

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Post by CovenantJr »

Incidentally, am I the only person who thinks Holt was possibly the only one who could save the human race from the Amnion? It was pointed out to me by Gart before I finished (though he managed to avoid spoilers) that at the end of the series, the Amnion are still a problem. They're still working on their near-C experiments as far as we know, they're still trying to produce Amnion indistinguishable from humans...they're still a threat. And of all the people in human space, really only Holt Fasner, monster though he was, seemed able to thwart them. Yes, he was very nasty, perhaps even evil, but to protect one species from effective destruction by another, I suspect a certain ruthlessness is required.

The only other person (IMO) who might have been able to pull it off was Warden Dios, but the reformed Warden (i.e. the Warden who wanted to atone for his collusion with Fasner) probably lacked the aforementioned ruthlessness. Or at least he lacked the ability to be sufficiently ruthless without destroying himself.

Yes, Holt was the bane of humankind - but he was also possibly its only defence. To me, this puts a new, bleak, slant on the ending of the series. So much redemption, yet all shall fall to the Amnion in time.
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Post by Loredoctor »

Oops, sorry Cov jr. I meant to split the thread as it headed in your direction (of comments), but it played up.
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Post by Elfgirl »

I thought that with the destruction of Captain's Fancy, the near-C drive experiment COULD have been over - prototype? And they got no actual data regarding its performance.

Also, the destruction of Tranquil Hegemony & Calm Horizons (and the last of the mutagen immunity drug), plus the fact that the formula was now broadcast across human space, wouldn't that have at least set the Amnion back a few decades or more in their research? The Hive would not have received any info about this as TH and CH decided to pursue CF more or less immediately. And with Holt Fasner and his Godlike ambitions out of the way, the rest of the humanity can now start to work together for the common good.

Well, that's the way I looked at it. But I'm the eternal optimist! ;)
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Post by Sorus »

I don't believe that Holt himself was essential to the survival of humanity, though much of the research conducted at his command likely will be. Humanity would have had a better chance of surviving if Holt had not suppressed so much vital information. As to the Space Defense Police, Min is the right person for the job. It's a changed universe. It will take time for things to get back to normal, but the Amnion also need time to recover and plot their next devious scheme.

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Post by CovenantJr »

The rest of this debate is in the Hashi vs Holt thread. Loremaster's attempt at divine internvention clearly only transported my original post.
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Post by Loredoctor »

Here is the debate, with excellent points on both sides (from the other thread):
Loremaster wrote:
CovenantJr wrote:Yes, Holt was the bane of humankind - but he was also possibly its only defence. To me, this puts a new, bleak, slant on the ending of the series. So much redemption, yet all shall fall to the Amnion in time.
I disagree. His decision to withhold the mutagen antidote for reasons of perpetuating the state of affairs - that is trade - made him compromise humanity. No one tried anything - like blowing up Thanatos Minor - until Warden tried to make a stand. With him gone people will try more. And recall the Amnion needed the peaceful state because they required our resources - which they could not get otherwise. Humanity's defense is that its got better industry.

I think the outcome will be a stalemate; with the Amnion's inefficient manufacturing but superior technology, and Humanity's weaker technology but superior manufacturing. SRD thought this, too - in the GI.
CovenantJr wrote:
Loremaster wrote:SRD thought this, too - in the GI.
That doesn't make him right ;) I still maintain that humanity needs Holt in order to survive. The Amnion will win sooner or later.
CovenantJr wrote:Hashi did achieve impressive feats with Angus; but I can't see the reformed UMCP (whatever the new name is - I forget) having the resources to achieve that kind of welding/wedding on a scale that will make much difference. The Joshua project must have been incredibly expensive.

Also, Angus achieved a lot, but I don't consider it something that could be repeated with any degree of certainty. I'm also inclined to believe that no-one in the new administration has the...again, I say ruthlessness...to pull it off. Of course, I'm thinking more about voluntary wedding than the kind of torment to which Angus was subjected, but still... I don't think the current leadership could or would do it.

As for outgunning the Amnion; perhaps so, but the stalemate will provide time, and even one near-C Amnion ship and/or passably human Amnioni could do enormous damage. Despite their slower and less efficient industry, the Amnion have an inherent advantage, in that they are effectively predators of the human species (indeed, every species, but humanity is the one that matters in this discussion). Humans simply cannot affect the Amnion on a fundamental level in the way the Amnion can affect humanity. The Amnion are, by nature, at an advantage. And they're gradually whittling away the few advantages humanity does possess, with their increasingly human-like creations - not just physically but mentally, like Marc Vestabule.
Loremaster wrote:Hmmm. Human like - to understand us for the their tactics? But the days of the Amnion being able to change us are limited or few. Humanity can counter the mutagen which changes the state of play. I dont deny that the Amnion's technology can cause us major grief, but if they send in 5 Behemoths to invade (keeping some in reserve to defend their space) we have ten times that number to defend, or invade. We have the numbers. And they lose a Behemoth it takes years before another one is released/grown from their dockyards.
CovenantJr wrote:Humanity does indeed have the immunity drug - but the Amnion know that, and it's stated several times during the course of the series that there's nothing to stop them modifying the mutagen to bypass the immunity.

In any case, I'm not thinking in terms of lateral battle. I'm thinking subtlety. Amnion who can pass as human can make more Amnion. Worlds of Amnion. They don't have to simply kill their enemies; if done correctly, a large number of their fallen enemies will rise again as allies.

And I didn't mean the increased understanding of human thinking will make a difference in so concrete a manner as battle strategy. Throughout the books, the main advantage of humanity as a species over the Amnion is unpredictability. But we see in the case of Marc Vestabule that certain Amnion, if mutated properly, can begin to apply this flexibility themselves. They begin to overcome their rigidity.

Ultimately, not only do the Amnion revive their enemies as allies, they also become increasingly like their enemy until any earlier advantage is gone. They are, if given time, unstoppable. The only means by which I can humanity surviving is either total elimination of all Amnion in short order, or a vice-like grip on their cost/benefit balance - the Holt Fasner approach.
Loremaster wrote:Ahhh, good post.
Ultimately, not only do the Amnion revive their enemies as allies, they also become increasingly like their enemy until any earlier advantage is gone.
Therein lies the irony; the amnion way may suffer because they become alot like us.
Revan wrote:Yup, I completely agree with Roger. Humanity needed Holt to survive. Someone who saw the whole picture.

The problem I sometimes find with Donaldsons work is that it is often too moralistic. Oh, there are plenty of immoral things within the context on the story. But in the end the messages in his books are the same: be true, be morally strong. The good guys always win, usually at a price.

As we know, the world doesn't work that way, ruthless people mantain places of power, good people homeless and ineffectual. The other way round as well. But that is what I'm trying to say - good guys don't always win.

And another thing, I often think that Holt was the key to humanity's survival. Perhaps because he was so profoundly ruthless. I mean look at the American Government - completely ruthless, and it's the most powerful in the world. Being ruthless isn't always bad when it benefits the world as a whole. Just like Holt's ruthlessness wasn't all that bad , as long it did humanity good as a whole.
CovenantJr wrote:
Loremaster wrote:Ahhh, good post.
Ultimately, not only do the Amnion revive their enemies as allies, they also become increasingly like their enemy until any earlier advantage is gone.
Therein lies the irony; the amnion way may suffer because they become alot like us.
That's a fair point. But I'm not sure "pure" Amnion could ever become even slightly human. I think they'd place former humans like Vestabule and Taverner in front line decision making roles to counter human spontaneity and invention. It could be argued that the more the Amnion rely on these part-human sub-leaders the weaker their position becomes, but since all governance seems to be done by the mysterious Mind/Union, this might not be the case. As long as the core ruling power of the Amnion doesn't become "infected" with humanity - and I can't see that happening - it shouldn't be a problem. Since we don't know what the Mind/Union actually is, it's hard to say.
Loremaster wrote:
CovenantJr wrote: . . . It could be argued that the more the Amnion rely on these part-human sub-leaders the weaker their position becomes, but since all governance seems to be done by the mysterious Mind/Union, this might not be the case. As long as the core ruling power of the Amnion doesn't become "infected" with humanity - and I can't see that happening - it shouldn't be a problem. Since we don't know what the Mind/Union actually is, it's hard to say.
But if the amnion mind/union is comprised of every individual - a gestalt consciousness - and there being no 'queen' amnion, the more amnion that are 'humanised' the more the mind/union changes.
CovenantJr wrote:Indeed, but we don't know what the Mind/Union is. That name seems to have been assigned somewhat arbitrarily based on human theories.
Loremaster wrote:True. I have difficulty accepting the hive mind theory as it is almost impossible to establish in a faster than light society (if the connection requires slower than light communication between 'drones'), or perhaps I am just biased against hive-minds (apart from Tyranids) as the idea is overdone and uninteresting.
CovenantJr wrote:That's an interesting point. A hive mind in a FTL society doesn't make much sense. And you're right; hive consciousness does seem to be used a lot, presumably because it's one of the most obvious ways an alien race could be very different from us.

Now I think about it, I don't see that the Amnion can have a hive mind. They had a small number of those synchronised crystal things for instantaneous communication - between Calm Horizons and Soar, if memory serves - which would be completely unnecessary if they had the kind of collective consciousness implied by the term "Mind/Union". The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards them having some form of central decision-maker, or possibly a small, localised collective that functions as a composite.

Conveniently, that supports my earlier theories. ;)
Peven wrote:I don't agree that Holt was good for humankind, he was good for Holt. he held humankind back, for his own benefit. he squelched innovation and advancement of humankind as a whole in order to better control and manipulate it. much the same as a monopoly in business stunts improvement and innovation in a particular industry, Holt's monopolistic control of humankind's technology and space exploration did the same.
Revan wrote:
Peven wrote:I don't agree that Holt was good for humankind, he was good for Holt. he held humankind back, for his own benefit. he squelched innovation and advancement of humankind as a whole in order to better control and manipulate it. much the same as a monopoly in business stunts improvement and innovation in a particular industry, Holt's monopolistic control of humankind's technology and space exploration did the same.
Agreed. but I think that by the end of the story, there is no-one who sees, or is capable of seeing - the broad situation like Holt always could. Therefore I think that human kind within the context of this story would be defeate without him.
Loremaster wrote:
Revan wrote:Agreed. but I think that by the end of the story, there is no-one who sees, or is capable of seeing - the broad situation like Holt always could. Therefore I think that human kind within the context of this story would be defeate without him.
I disagree here. Holt was in it purely for technological resources from the amnion whilst allowing humanity to suffer. So there's no greater good for humanity. And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.

And how do we know that Hashi and Min won't do just as good or better? They haven't the chance to prove themselves, but already the amnion have been strongly weakned with the loss of one defensive and the release of the anti-mutagen (which more will develop with the release of further alterations to the AM).
Revan wrote:Regardless of Holt's reasons - I believe that he and he alone could deal with the Amnion threat - that he had the foresight to know what to do - niether Min or Hashi have that feat I think.
He had no forsight. As I wrote:
And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.
[/quote]
Revan wrote:He did. He had the foresight that the methods that humans meant to use wouldn't work. Within the story, I believe humans get defeated... not extinct - there are too many of them for that - but defeated.
Loremaster wrote:But that doesn't mean anything. It was the Gap drive which brought humanity out of the mire, not Holt. And regardless, using that as an argument is not valid; Hitler brough Germany out of a mire, too. :)
And again:
And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.
And let's not forget what Holt really had in mind for humanity when he got his hands on Davies. Oh, and under Holt piracy was rampant, as was the trade in humans because Holt knew that's what the Amnion wanted in exchange for materials. He was also willing to slaughter his own people to get his ends: witness what he did with the Kazes. There is no safety, no security with Holt - just terrorism and the threat of the amnion.

With Holt as leader, it would be only a matter of time before the amnion invade with near-c capable ships and mass conversion of humans as the mutagen would be suppressed.
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Post by Loredoctor »

Loremaster wrote:
Revan wrote:Humanity needed Holt to survive.
I see this statement as wrong. SRD would not have ended the series with Holt as necessary to humanity's future. That's not how he writes. In fact, the last chapter is humanity reborn, and certainly gives every indication that they can fight. For a start, Min would not allow the amnion their precious resources, and with billinsgate destroyed the aliens have lost a major source of human supplies. The amnion have also lost 2 behemoths.
Revan wrote:Well I fear we'll have to agree to disagree. We clearly won't change each others minds. :)

But even you an't deny Holt was a genius in his own way. To achieve the things he achieved.
Loremaster wrote:
Revan wrote:Well I fear we'll have to agree to disagree. We clearly won't change each others minds. :)

But even you an't deny Holt was a genius in his own way. To achieve the things he achieved.
He achieved what? Hashi achieved everything, Holt just set up a way to make money on the backs of human suffering and off the Amnion. He actually did nothing to stop the amnion threat, and allowed them to prepare to invade. Yes, that is real foresight. :)

My final point: if he was so good for humanity, why did Warden even act? Warden would have just suicided because of his guilt.
CovenantJr wrote:Holt was not good for humanity. Holt was very, very bad for humanity, and I wouldn't advocate leaving him in a position of power.

My point is, however wretched humanity was under Holt, it was at least alive. I don't think anyone else had the combination of vision and ruthlessness that is required to survive the Amnion.

You point out that the Amnion developed near-C velocities etc during Holt's tenure; I would counter by drawing your attention to the fact that the Amnion had no reason to use these technologies until Warden starting fighting Holt. Holt may not have been able to prevent the Amnion developing their weapons and other useful bits and pieces, but he did hold them in a position where using these devices would be more trouble than it was worth. Warden gave them a reason to take action.

Humanity will, I think fare much better internally under the new regime; life will be better and people will be happier. But I think the life span of the human race as a whole will be much shorter.
Loremaster wrote:
CovenantJr wrote:You point out that the Amnion developed near-C velocities etc during Holt's tenure; I would counter by drawing your attention to the fact that the Amnion had no reason to use these technologies until Warden starting fighting Holt.
I disagree. They were developing them way before that. In fact, they tested an experimental drive using Captains Fancy. Warden did not start openly fighting Holt until midway book 3.
but he did hold them in a position where using these devices would be more trouble than it was worth.
The amnion had every intention of invading. Hence their development of genetic kazes and their interest in Davies. Holt would have run off crying when that happened.
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Sorus wrote:I don't believe that Holt himself was essential to the survival of humanity, though much of the research conducted at his command likely will be. Humanity would have had a better chance of surviving if Holt had not suppressed so much vital information.
Good point. Holt never did anything for humanity, and everything was for improving his own situation.
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Post by drew »

It could also be said that without people like Angus or Nick and other pirates; the Amniaon would not have been able to be as advanced in their ways.

IE: If Angus hadn't sold all of those people to them, they would have had less people to experiment with their mutagens on. Not to mention The ore sold the Amnion by other pirate to help them build more ships.

I remeber Holt thinking to himself that he'd sell out the whole human race in order to better his own life..once he found out about Davies he was obsesssed, if Warden and the others weren't able to stop him/them he would have encouraged the Amnion to further test their mutagens.
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Post by Elfgirl »

drew wrote: I remeber Holt thinking to himself that he'd sell out the whole human race in order to better his own life..once he found out about Davies he was obsesssed, if Warden and the others weren't able to stop him/them he would have encouraged the Amnion to further test their mutagens.
probably because Holt was searching for immortality? ;)
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Elfgirl wrote:
drew wrote: I remeber Holt thinking to himself that he'd sell out the whole human race in order to better his own life..once he found out about Davies he was obsesssed, if Warden and the others weren't able to stop him/them he would have encouraged the Amnion to further test their mutagens.
probably because Holt was searching for immortality? ;)
However, a form of humanity.
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Post by drew »

but he didn't want the human race to be imortal...just himself.

I think that saying by saying Holt bettered human society, is like saying Foul improved the Warward by attacking the Land.
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Post by Holsety »

There's one problem with the idea that The Dragon could ever save humanity, and I'm honestly a little shocked that people seem to have forgotten it. The Dragon never had any intention of saving humanity in the first place, and therefore there is no way he could act as an instrument to preserve it. Making any argument that he will is indefensible. Vertigus has it closest, in fact, though he relies on a single impression...that Holt thinks he simply is humanity's only individual of true importance. We forget that the characters in the Gap only describe Holt as best they can, but they don't know "The Real Story." We do. Page 535 and 663 (incidentally, pg 666 is still in Holt's perspective) of This Day All Gods Die each begin the two best looks into the CEO of UMC's personality.

I won't quote much, but I will put in one sentence here that effectively demolishes the idea that humanity can survive Holt's rule:
Did they really think their misguided species could ever win against the Amnion?
Holt views humanity as having the current advantage militarily, but basically feels that the only way for them to survive is to get rid of their humanity. Force grow infants and genetically engineer themselves, rely entirely on treachery and cleverness (the one thing the Amnion will undoubtedly never beat out humanity in). He values himself more because he knows he is practically the only human who will possibly pursue this objective for his race. And, as his later narrative reveals, he also has no perception of anything worth keeping in humanity; even at the book's end, he thinks Warden's operation is just some kind of gamble for power, and glories in Dios' death (thinking that has thwarted the UMCP director's objectives). He has no qualms with enacting violence against any person. His strength and intellect draws itself from anger and hate. The only thing he seems to value is simply existing, and controlling the existence of others. The only true positives humanity recieved from his rule generally were enacted by Dios as, in the director's words, "damage control", like managing to finish the immunity drug rather than simply disposing of the research.

The salvation Holt Fasner offers humanity isn't worth it. Extinction would be better, assimilation by the Amnion would be about the same.
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Post by CovenantJr »

Holsety wrote:He values himself more because he knows he is practically the only human who will possibly pursue this objective for his race.
That's exactly my point. I reiterate, I'm not claiming survival under Holt would be good; I'm just saying I don't think anyone else could keep the human race alive in any non-Amnion form.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

And the price for it would be simply the betrayal of self, of humanity. One of the series' biggest points is that retaining your self, your humanity, can be more important than simple survival. Holt's world view would allow the continuation of the human species, but it would be the end of humanity.
I know that's pretty much what you are arguing, CovJr, but I'm not as accepting of that possible outcome as you may be.
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Post by CovenantJr »

Maybe I'm just more like Holt than you are. ;)
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Holsety wrote:There's one problem with the idea that The Dragon could ever save humanity, and I'm honestly a little shocked that people seem to have forgotten it. The Dragon never had any intention of saving humanity in the first place, and therefore there is no way he could act as an instrument to preserve it. Making any argument that he will is indefensible. Vertigus has it closest, in fact, though he relies on a single impression...that Holt thinks he simply is humanity's only individual of true importance. We forget that the characters in the Gap only describe Holt as best they can, but they don't know "The Real Story." We do. Page 535 and 663 (incidentally, pg 666 is still in Holt's perspective) of This Day All Gods Die each begin the two best looks into the CEO of UMC's personality.

I won't quote much, but I will put in one sentence here that effectively demolishes the idea that humanity can survive Holt's rule:
Did they really think their misguided species could ever win against the Amnion?
Holt views humanity as having the current advantage militarily, but basically feels that the only way for them to survive is to get rid of their humanity. Force grow infants and genetically engineer themselves, rely entirely on treachery and cleverness (the one thing the Amnion will undoubtedly never beat out humanity in). He values himself more because he knows he is practically the only human who will possibly pursue this objective for his race. And, as his later narrative reveals, he also has no perception of anything worth keeping in humanity; even at the book's end, he thinks Warden's operation is just some kind of gamble for power, and glories in Dios' death (thinking that has thwarted the UMCP director's objectives). He has no qualms with enacting violence against any person. His strength and intellect draws itself from anger and hate. The only thing he seems to value is simply existing, and controlling the existence of others. The only true positives humanity recieved from his rule generally were enacted by Dios as, in the director's words, "damage control", like managing to finish the immunity drug rather than simply disposing of the research.

The salvation Holt Fasner offers humanity isn't worth it. Extinction would be better, assimilation by the Amnion would be about the same.
Excellent post, Holsety.
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Post by TheScepticalSaint »

IMO, it's pretty clear Holt would never save humanity in any form. Even if Holt made his pact with Amnion and obtained immortaliy for awhile, eventually either Holt would try to cheat them or their drive to be the only genetic form of life would force them to try and mutate him.
Besides which Holt was a force of stasis, he held things to the status-quo. The Amnion did no such thing, the near C ships and the continued development of the mutigen meant the Amnion would've won sooner rather than later with Holt still in control of humanity.
Holt was doomed and he was dragging everyone with him, without The Dragon there is hope for a solution
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Post by CovenantJr »

TheScepticalSaint wrote:...without The Dragon there is hope for a solution
What kind of solution? I have yet to think of a way in which the new leaders of the human race can prevail.
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Holsety wrote:There's one problem with the idea that The Dragon could ever save humanity, and I'm honestly a little shocked that people seem to have forgotten it. The Dragon never had any intention of saving humanity in the first place, and therefore there is no way he could act as an instrument to preserve it. Making any argument that he will is indefensible. Vertigus has it closest, in fact, though he relies on a single impression...that Holt thinks he simply is humanity's only individual of true importance. We forget that the characters in the Gap only describe Holt as best they can, but they don't know "The Real Story." We do. Page 535 and 663 (incidentally, pg 666 is still in Holt's perspective) of This Day All Gods Die each begin the two best looks into the CEO of UMC's personality.

I won't quote much, but I will put in one sentence here that effectively demolishes the idea that humanity can survive Holt's rule:
Did they really think their misguided species could ever win against the Amnion?
Holt views humanity as having the current advantage militarily, but basically feels that the only way for them to survive is to get rid of their humanity. Force grow infants and genetically engineer themselves, rely entirely on treachery and cleverness (the one thing the Amnion will undoubtedly never beat out humanity in). He values himself more because he knows he is practically the only human who will possibly pursue this objective for his race. And, as his later narrative reveals, he also has no perception of anything worth keeping in humanity; even at the book's end, he thinks Warden's operation is just some kind of gamble for power, and glories in Dios' death (thinking that has thwarted the UMCP director's objectives). He has no qualms with enacting violence against any person. His strength and intellect draws itself from anger and hate. The only thing he seems to value is simply existing, and controlling the existence of others. The only true positives humanity recieved from his rule generally were enacted by Dios as, in the director's words, "damage control", like managing to finish the immunity drug rather than simply disposing of the research.

The salvation Holt Fasner offers humanity isn't worth it. Extinction would be better, assimilation by the Amnion would be about the same.
Holsety made this post nearly twelve years ago, and I think it remains as brilliant as ever. Thanks, Holsety! 8)
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