Runes, Prolouge, Ch. 2: Gathering Defenses

ROTE, FR, AATE, TLD

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caamora
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Post by caamora »

Yeah, Dan, you are right. TC would have noticed him at the seance thingy. I forgot about that.

Well, I always thought that Jeremiah's autism was induced because part of him was left in the Land. He was at the weird seance thing that killed TC in the second chrons. His hand was in the fire and maybe that connected him to the Land in such a way that when the weird seance thing was over, part of him was still in the Land. That is why he builds landmarks from the Land with his erector (and lego) sets.
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Post by Avatar »

dANdeLION wrote:I could see him being posessed by a raver; he has the arrogance of a raver...
Agreed. Either that, or as WayFriend said, strongly influenced by one...perhaps even compelled?

But...wouldn't that make him a tool of Foul, and thus unable to break the arch?

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Post by Torrent »

dANdeLION wrote: My last point is purely speculative (heh, just like the first three): I believe Linden will not save the Land this time. If you look at the 1st 2 chronicles, Thomas saved the land the 1st time, and Linden saved it the 2nd time, which means that the Creator knows how good Foul is at adapting his game to win a second confrontation, so he chooses a different savior each time to keep Foul off his game. Jeremiah's autism may be a type of protection, like how Thomas was protected by the Elohim in the 2nd chronicles. Anyway, I think he'll come out of it, and have to defeat Foul and re-establish the law of death. I don't doubt that Linden and Thomas will do plenty, but I think the Land will need a new hero this time. Anyway, that's the fun of speculation!
I don't want to speculate too much either, because I like being surprised, but does Jeremiah necessarily have to be one of the good guys? Is this hinted at in any other way than "what Linden feels"?

I just checked and I don't think we actually get to know too much about Jeremiah in the first two chapters, so I'll use the spoiler thingy:
Spoiler
His maimed hand also makes him some kind of doppelgänger - Covenant's and Berek's. But maybe this is misleading in some way...I don't know. I think it may be too easy to think that Roger is GOOD and Jeremiah is EVIL. Pietten did a lot of bad things because he was hurt in a similar way as Jeremiah, and not because his intentions were evil (all from memory, I may be wrong).

I agree with caamora that it seems as if part of Jeremiah's soul has always been in the land after the blood ritual.

I also couldn't keep myself from thinking - what if Jeremiah is Thomas' and Linden's son in some spiritual or symbolic way.

@danlo
But SRD could have written Linden a Mr Right if he had wanted to. :P

The way I see it there are two possibilities.
A: SRD thinks that Linden is perfectly content and happy the way it is and it is only some of us who disagree.
B: Linden's inability to let go and move one indicate something else, maybe some kind of pride or arrogance on her part (because it is human to make mistakes and to have emotional and physical needs); makes me think of the pride of the Haruchai and the oath of the boodguard (but maybe this is too far-fetched)

I'd rather stop here because I don't want to refer to any later events in the book (I've read till "Heedless in the Rain").[/spoiler]
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Post by dANdeLION »

Pride? I think Linden's just showing commitment; I seriously doubt pride would manifest itself in taking care of Thomas's damaged ex-wife and Jeremiah. In a lot of ways I think Linden has moved on; Thomas gave her love, and shared the Land with her; she's a different woman now, and I think it's just plain silly to look at her, see she doesn't have a boyfriend, and think that means something's wrong with her.
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Post by wayfriend »

I think that whatever demons Linden had, they were dealt with by her first visit to the Land.

The life Linden has may not be what we consider a good life, but I think that she is content with it. The life that suits you is not always the life that's the most joy-filled (as I know). There are many people who find only one soul-mate and life-partner in this world, and when they are gone, they don't replace them. And there are many who choose to adopt children, even handicapped children, instead of having their own. It's what they need to do.

Anyway, if you're chosen to go to the Land, it isn't so you can work out your dating problems.
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Post by caamora »

Torrent said that maybe SRD wrote LInden to be perfectly happy. That would be a new character for SRD. Don't all his main characters have issues? :) I don't think that would be a possibility. Yet, it does seem that she is angst-free, which is a little unnerving.

I do agree that she is arrogant. I don't think that she has moved on, however. I think she is hiding. From what, I couldn't say but she does not seem to be a happy, fullfilled person. She is taking on someone else's responsibility out of obligation. She took on Jeremiah because his mother was incapable. She took on Joan because TC was dead and Roger was too young. It is not HER reponsibility to care for Joan. It is Roger's. She seems to be throwing her life away for the love of a dead man. I don't think that TC would have wanted her to do that. Frankly, I think he would have absolutely HATED it! It makes him responsible for her spending her life on him.

Does any of this make sense?
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Post by dANdeLION »

Yeah, it makes sense. I just see it another way; the Linden before TWL was a person who had serious issues with death, and I think she became a doctor because of that. I think that Covenant was the first person she was actually able to let go of; and her caring for Joan is her way of thanking Thomas. Her caring for Jeremiah is her response to what she needed (and didn't get) when she was a child, IMO. I think she's put some demons to rest, but, being a human being, I'm sure she's not put them all away. I do agree that TC would have felt responsible for everything Linden has done for Joan, as he has a horrible track record for accepting gifts.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


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Post by Torrent »

I think you can't just call this "dating problems" (maybe because I've never had a date myself and I don't get the concept anyway), and I don't think you need a boyfriend to be content. ;)

You don't see arrogance or pride in it. I didn't see arrogance or pride in it myself at first, but since this is about interpreting the book, I'm trying to think in all kinds of directions. And it was made quite clear that the Haruchai's commitment was wrong and arrogant, so I could imagine that the same might be said of Linden's 'commitment'. The white gold is about flaws and impurity as well, so I think this is a common theme in the books.

Maybe I'm taking things too far here, so I'm glad at least caamora can relate to it. :)

I think that Linden has found her inner peace and a feeling of self-value though. And in a way that one love may be fulfilling, yes. But it's still a very lonely life in a way. Going to work, coming home, saying hello to the sitter, eating dinner alone, going to bed. Even Sunder was given Hollian (and I'm sure that wasn't just because SRD was worried about him not having enough dates or because his love for his first wife was flawed).
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Post by Torrent »

dANdeLION wrote:Yeah, it makes sense. I just see it another way; the Linden before TWL was a person who had serious issues with death, and I think she became a doctor because of that. I think that Covenant was the first person she was actually able to let go of; and her caring for Joan is her way of thanking Thomas. Her caring for Jeremiah is her response to what she needed (and didn't get) when she was a child, IMO. I think she's put some demons to rest, but, being a human being, I'm sure she's not put them all away. I do agree that TC would have felt responsible for everything Linden has done for Joan, as he has a horrible track record for accepting gifts.
Hm, I always thought she had more issues with guilt. Maybe because I never really understood the nature of her problems with death (but that's OT I guess).
I guess that's projection on my part then. :?
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Post by dANdeLION »

She definitely did have issues with guilt; I don't think she's completely past that, either. I just think her time with TC helped her; gave her the tools to deal with her issues. The Linden I see in Runes is no longer a person who cannot cope with her past. As for the 'commitment' thing, I think there's a major difference between Linden caring for people and the Harucai's sitting in judgement of people.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


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Post by wayfriend »

Yeah. And calling Linden arrogant because she adopted a sick child is like calling someone selfish for volunteering to work in a shelter, or like calling someone a show-off because they give to charities. In fact, it is a humble act.
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Post by dANdeLION »

Torrent wrote:Hm, I always thought she had more issues with guilt. Maybe because I never really understood the nature of her problems with death (but that's OT I guess). I guess that's projection on my part then. :?
Projection's cool; that's all I'm doing. Your comment makes me think you haven't read the 2nd Chronicles, however. I don't know how I'd see Linden if Runes was my first contact with her.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


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Post by Torrent »

Wayfriend wrote:Yeah. And calling Linden arrogant because she adopted a sick child is like calling someone selfish for volunteering to work in a shelter, or like calling someone a show-off because they give to charities. In fact, it is a humble act.
C'mon, that's not what I wrote. I wasn't referring to her relationship with Jeremiah at all. Why do you turn everything I say into something that sounds so shallow? That's just like saying that wishing for Linden to have somebody who loves HER is about dating or sex or whatever.

But apart from that I don't believe in human actions that aren't at least to a certain percentage selfish, even if it only helps them to feel good about it. I just don't believe in saints.

Dandelion, I have read the Second Chronicles, but only twice, so maybe that doesn't qualify me for a dissection. And maybe I took something different from the books than everybody else. Or maybe I'm just too stupid to understand them. *sigh*

I feel this is leading nowhere. I was just thinking out loud and trying to read a little more into things than they necessarily mean, seeing parallels where maybe there aren't any.
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Post by Avatar »

What? Nonsense, you're doing fine. And there's no qualification requirement for dissecting either. And everybody is free to take whatever they want from the books.

We just like to understand how you got it. It certainly isn't a question of understanding them "rightly" or "wrongly."

Thinking out loud, (and disagreeing with one another ;) ) is what this place is all about. :lol:

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Post by variol son »

Hey Torrent, we're just disagreeing with you - no one hates you or wants you to stop posting. Take heart. :D

I saw Linden's adopting Jeremiah and caring for Joan as simply a way of redirecting her love for Covenant that had nowhere else to go.

In The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant she learned to love him, and then he died. It then makes sense to me that when she returns to our world she expresses that love in ways that are associated with Covenant, such as taking over from him in caring for Joan or adopting one of the brainwashed children that were part of the group that killed him.

It's like devoting herself to his memory.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.

In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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Post by dANdeLION »

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Thanks, VS.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion


I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.


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Post by Zarathustra »

This seems significant to me:
This is how he had spent his time for years: he put things together and took them apart. Indeed, he seemed incapable of any relationship except with physical objects which could be connected to each other . . . Presented with [...] any form of nonmechanical object designed to be attached to or inserted into other nonmechanical objects, he became a wizard.
Did anyone else experience a mutated Pinball Wizard running through their head when reading this? "He's an Erector set Wizard, has to be a twist, Lincoln Log wizard, has such a supple wrist."

Well, jokes aside, I think there's got to be a twist. Some recently quoted words from the GI came back to me (along with the Who lyrics):
The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms . . . ),
So the Staff (and magic in general) is essentially a symbolic unity, and he stresses that it's nonmechanical. It is a unity of Findail and Vain, of Earthpower and Law. And Jeremiah is a wizard with nonmechanical unities. Hmmm. I'm thinking that deaf, dumb and blind kid might play a mean game of kick-Lord-Foul's-ass.

[Edit: a few pages later, there's this:
With every construct, he built hope for the future. . . Connecting one Lincoln Log or Tinkertoy to the next, he might at last devise a door to his prison and step out into her arms.
So his construction of nonmechanical unities might be able to heal, as well (something the Staff is apt for). But I'm disturbed about this "devise a door to his prison" stuff. Reminds me of Foul's intensions.

I think in the Last Chronicles, that we're looking at the opposite of what TC did in the 2nd Chrons: saving a little girl helped him save the Land (this mini-summary version of the 2nd Chrons is explicitly repeated in the 1st two chapters of Runes). Linden is trying to do the same thing: save her son, damn the consequences. She thinks that TC's previous actions give her justification, that nothing bad can happen from such good intentions. But I think in this series, we'll see the need for her to sacrifice her son--or at least be willing to--so that her son will save her. She's the one who needs saving. A reversal of roles. ]
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Post by Relayer »

Malik23 wrote:This seems significant to me:
This is how he had spent his time for years: he put things together and took them apart. Indeed, he seemed incapable of any relationship except with physical objects which could be connected to each other . . . Presented with [...] any form of nonmechanical object designed to be attached to or inserted into other nonmechanical objects, he became a wizard.
Did anyone else experience a mutated Pinball Wizard running through their head when reading this? "He's an Erector set Wizard, has to be a twist, Lincoln Log wizard, has such a supple wrist."
Interesting... it did occur to me that Jeremiah was like Tommy (the Pinball Wizard). Both become deaf, dumb and blind due to an external traumatic event. Yet both have some sort of 'magical' ability... Tommy plays pinball, Jeremiah builds stuff. I wonder if this is an influence on SRD? Nowadays he says he listens to classical, but he was in college back when Tommy was popular... ??

There are actually many possible parallels between Jeremiah and Tommy; If anyone's interested I can write them out.
Malik23 wrote:
With every construct, he built hope for the future. . . Connecting one Lincoln Log or Tinkertoy to the next, he might at last devise a door to his prison and step out into her arms.
So his construction of nonmechanical unities might be able to heal, as well (something the Staff is apt for). But I'm disturbed about this "devise a door to his prison" stuff. Reminds me of Foul's intensions.
I saw the prison comment as Linden hoping he might be able to find a way out of what she sees as Jeremiah being imprisoned in his mind. For the last 10 years, I don't think it's ever occurred to her that he might have already been in the Land
Spoiler
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Post by wayfriend »

As a point of order, I think we should refrain from discussing text from future chapters; save it for when the chapter comes around.

-- the dissection jerk
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Post by matrixman »

I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind the idea that Linden has been "arrogant" in the way she has led her life post-Covenant. Does this go beyond a "mere" story we are reading? Is it the voice of societal pressure? Is it the voice of peer pressure that speaks when the argument is raised that Linden ought to just "get on" with her life and "get a new man?" I mean this line of reasoning: Human beings, and perhaps especially women, are seen as naturally social creatures, therefore it's perceived to be wrong or "unnatural" for a woman to stay single and not have any long-term partner. So people who choose to remain alone are considered strange and perhaps prejudged to be sociopathic by society at large. Even their sexual and emotional competency may be brought into question by the "normal" strata of society. Why is this perfectly healthy and attractive woman all by herself? What is wrong with her? Someone put some sense into her. In medieval times, such a woman might have been suspected as a witch by a superstitious society. Thankfully, we don't live in those times, but even today, isn't it true that an unmarried and/or celibate woman is considered peculiar by the majority? Not something to be applauded, but disregarded as always a temporary phase until she lands "Mr. Right?"

I disagree with that kind of view (if that wasn't obvious). Yes, I know, you're all probably going to say (as SRD likes to) that all this blather goes far beyond the text and is irrelevant to the story. Maybe. I think I'm just rising to Linden's defense, but I'm no Megan Roman, so go ahead and shoot me down if you feel like it.
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