Runes, Prolouge, Ch. 2: Gathering Defenses

ROTE, FR, AATE, TLD

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drew
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Post by drew »

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.


NO Burgs..I think you're right (read my above post)

I'd say that if 'Foul had this whole thing planned all along" it would be as cheap as TC waking up in the hospital after it's all over, and everything was a dream
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Post by burgs »

Right...I totally agree. Well said.

By SRDs comments in the GI, it doesn't matter if it's a dream or not anymore. I take that to mean that it's not a dream. We need to accept this as real. Even if it is a dream - although on the surface that makes no sense.

If it is a dream, the realities within that dream have dreadful consequences for whomever has that dream...and if it is a dream, TC had it twice - and now Linden is having it, completely devoid of TC. That would indicate, I think, that if it is a dream, someone is giving them that dream. And if someone is giving them that dream, then it's real. And, of course, "someone" gave that same dream to Linden in the 2nd Chrons.

If that makes any sense at all. It does to me.
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Post by SoulBiter »

burgs wrote:No, no, no - I can't believe it was conscious on Foul's part. If that was so, Foul wouldn't have been screaming in rage at the end of the First and Second Chronicles. He thought he was going to win - both times. Especially the Second. He screamed to the Creator after he acquired the ring - something about "beware mine enemy, I'm gonna wipe your ass up". OK, maybe not in a hillbilly dialect, but I don't feel like looking it up and that sounded funny to me. I'm odd.
I have seen people scream in rage when they dont get what they are looking for when they want it.. Even taking the long view of 'I can keep trying until I get out" .. he was sooooooo close... he had the white gold in hand.. freely given. And this one time it could all have been his. But in his arrogance and anger at Covenant for having defeated him the first time, (and perhaps his own fear of being defeated again) he didnt remember that he could have just dismissed TC and then moved on to destroy the arch. (an assumption on my part that TC was only able to act until he was dismissed)

Im not saying that this is correct.. Im just saying that I agree with the possibility. Wayfriends theory is possible and plausable. But just as plausable and possible is Burgs contention that Foul doesnt know and didnt know at any point that he would or could be defeated. He is arrogant that way and his arrogance cost him a victory both times.
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Post by wayfriend »

burgs wrote:Then again, maybe I'm wrong.
We're ALL wrong burgs. But its fun anyway. :wink:
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Post by drew »

Wayfriend wrote: We're ALL wrong burgs.
You're probebly right!

Think of hat you though was going to happen in the rest of the first series after the first book, and the seconds series..I'm sure it'll be one heell of a journy
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Post by wayfriend »

drew wrote:
Wayfriend wrote: We're ALL wrong burgs.
You're probebly right!
Then I was wrong again. :wink:
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Post by Ur Dead »

Can Jeremiah be Berek?

[mod edit - spoiler removed.]
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Post by burgs »

Certainly an interesting thought.

What's the protocol on spoilers now? Can't we be rid of them for Runes discussions yet???? it's been two years.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

In Runes forum use of spoilers regarding Runes related material is not necessary. Since this is the DTL forum and we're dissecting Runes, spoiler tags are only necessary when discussing topics contained in Runes that have not yet been covered.
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Post by Relayer »

I'd say we probably should keep the spoilers in the dissections. There may be newbies reading through, even a few years from now, or people like me who just reread the first 2 trilogies and had to stop reading the dissections because sometimes there were spoilers of things I had forgotten (especially related to WGW, which I'm still in the middle of).
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Post by wayfriend »

( In dissections, we should use spoilers for anything in future chapters, for those people following along as they read it for the first time. )
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Post by burgs »

Spoiler
I suppose that makes sense.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Well, it doesn't really make sense regarding mere speculation, as with the Jeremiah example above. How can you spoil something you're just guessing about?
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Post by Relayer »

Agreed, as long as it's speculation that's not based on knowledge from later in the book (or in Fatal Rev).
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Post by burgs »

My spoiler was a bit of a joke. *Sigh*.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Burgs, we got it. :) I was talking about Ur Dead's spoiler. I suppose it does give away the fact that
Spoiler
this book deals with time travel,
but since it is widely known that the Last Chronicles contains an attack by Lord Foul upon the Arch of Time itself (isn't that the blurb summary?), this isn't really a big revelation, in my opinion. And we've already read that Jeremiah is in the Land, and that Roger might be in the Land. The rest is pure speculation.

Yeah, I know, it will remained spoiler-tagged despite my opinion. :)
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Nope, not anymore! ;)
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Post by Zarathustra »

Lots of great comments here. It's been a lot of fun rereading everything you all have said knowing what we know now.

Relayer wrote:
Torrent wrote:
Wayfriend wrote:
In chapter one, Linden discusses how her life is fulfilling and complete. There's no hint that there's any unresolved internal struggle, as Covenant had in LFB, as Linden had in TWL. In fact, the author goes out of his way to point out the opposite.
Did you really get the impression that her life is complete?
I really didn't get that either. There's a line that says something to the effect of "Jeremiah filled the hole in her heart that was meant for Covenant." She still longs for TC, more than anything, and misses being able to make such a huge difference like she did in the Land. Somewhere it also says her work now fulfilled her, but in a much smaller way, not like the grandeur of the Land. She seems willing to accept that her life is how it is, but to me it seems that the way SRD wrote it, he wants to convey that something still IS missing.
I definitely agree with Relayer and Torrent … the prologue is called, “my heart has rooms.” This entire Prologue is a an example of how Linden has not been able to let go or say Farewell.
On page 6, SRD wrote:

Closing the door behind her, Linden led him through the edifice where she did the work with which she attempted to fill Covenant’s plce in her heart. His place—and the Land’s—

Inadvertently she remembered the sound of Pitchwife’s voice as he sang,

My heart has rooms that sigh with dust
And ashes in the hearth.


At time the contrast between her experience with Thomas Covenant and her years at Berenford Memorial discouraged her.
And then the quote that has been referred to several times in this thread (by myself and others):
On page 6, SRD wrote:Surely her contest with the madness of her patients could not compare with the sheer glory of Thomas Covenant’s struggle to redeem the Land. Nevertheless she clsoed her thoat and continued guiding Roger toward Joan’s room. The ache he elicited was familiar to her, and she knew how to bear it.

Her life here was not less than the one she had lived with Covenant. It was only different. Less grand, perhaps: more ambiguous, with smaller triumphs. But it sufficed.
Given Bannor’s “we suffice,” I wonder if we can take Linden’s (or SRD’s) word for anything sufficing. Clearly he uses this word when he means exactly the opposite.

This song was a big part of the last chapter of WGW, “To Say Farewell.” It was about Linden losing TC.

1st stanza:
In WGW, SRD wrote:My heart has rooms that sigh with dust
And ashes in the hearth.
They must be cleaned and blown away
By daylight’s breath.
But I cannot essay the task,
For even dust to me is dear;
For dust and ashes still recall,
My love was here.
Even dust and ash is dear (to Linden), because of how it reminds her of TC. That’s not a particularly healthy attitude.

2nd stanza:
In WGW, SRD wrote:I know not how to say Farewell,
When Farewell is the word
That stays alone for me to say
Or will be heard.
But I cannot speak out that word
Or ever let my loved one go:
How can I bear it that these rooms
Are empty so?
So she can’t let go, can’t say farewell, can’t bear that “these rooms” are empty.

3rd stanza:
In WGW, SRD wrote:I sit among the dust and hope
That dust will cover me.
I stir the ashes in the hearth,
Though cold they be.
I cannot bear to close the door,
To seal my loneliness away
While dust and ashes yet remain
Of my love’s day.
That’s pretty sick, when you think about it. She sits in the dust and hopes it covers her? Sounds like she got her wish!
Spoiler
[Is this dust “Kevin’s Dirt?!?]
It certainly “covers” her in her new life, with loneliness, inability to let go of the rusty car which took her to see Covenant for the first time, etc.

I think Torrent was right on here:
Torrent wrote:Linden's inability to let go and move on indicates something else, maybe some kind of pride or arrogance on her part (because it is human to make mistakes and to have emotional and physical needs); makes me think of the pride of the Haruchai and the oath of the boodguard (but maybe this is too far-fetched)
Both Linden and Bannor basically said, "I sufficed" when they didn't.
Wayfriend wrote: I think that whatever demons Linden had, they were dealt with by her first visit to the Land.

...

I find the Linden at the start of Runes to be very similar to the Covenant we see described after returning from his first defeat of Lord Foul. There are no sweeping changes in his life, he still has leprosy, he is still shunned, he still hangs out at Haven Farm. But he is changed inside - he is no longer tormented by it, instead he is capable of accepting it and living vitally within its confines. The changes are internal, not external; the outward characterstics are not changed much. His life is spare, but it's a good life nonetheless.
And yet TC still needed to resolve some issues, right? TC went twice, and he did so because he still had issues to resolve; he had to find another anwer to the problem of Despite. I don’t think Linden found the Final Answer to the problem of Despite, either. Previous answers have always been temporary.

Several posts here were very interesting in hindsight:
Torrent wrote: I don't want to speculate too much either, because I like being surprised, but does Jeremiah necessarily have to be one of the good guys?
Caamora wrote: Well, I always thought that Jeremiah's autism was induced because part of him was left in the Land. He was at the weird seance thing that killed TC in the second chrons. His hand was in the fire and maybe that connected him to the Land in such a way that when the weird seance thing was over, part of him was still in the Land. That is why he builds landmarks from the Land with his erector (and lego) sets.
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Post by Relayer »

Zarathustra wrote:That’s pretty sick, when you think about it. She sits in the dust and hopes it covers her? Sounds like she got her wish!
Spoiler
[Is this dust “Kevin’s Dirt?!?]
It certainly “covers” her in her new life, with loneliness, inability to let go of the rusty car which took her to see Covenant for the first time, etc.
Interesting thought in the spoiler tag, I wonder if there's some analogy there.

ps. I'm really glad you found some new things to say!! :D
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Post by Zarathustra »

Thanks, Relayer!

I was just kind of half-joking about the dust and the spoiler. But ...
Spoiler
... what significance does it have that it's Kevin's dirt? What if KD is Kevin's own personal "dust and ash" that fill his heart? His regret?
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